Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc

We are blurring the lines between a regular entitled douchebag and a sexual predator/assaulter. In a dangerous territory here.
 
Silva said:
Average, run of the mill, bad dates turning into sexual assault are exactly what women are complaining about. It looks like too many people have chosen to ignore them.
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It wasn't sexual assault. Listen to Ashleigh Banfield's video. No one thinks its sexual assault other than those seeking to run interference for the woman who has defamed Ansari because of a bad date.
 
Raoul said:
It wasn't sexual assault. Listen to Ashleigh Banfield's video. No one thinks its sexual assault other than those seeking to run interference for the woman who has defamed Ansari because of a bad date.
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If he doesn't want to be known as a sexual predator, he shouldn't be acting like some kind of pornstar with a woman who isn't into it.
 
Silva said:
He did assault her. She told him she wasn't in it, and he kept trying to kiss, grope and feck her. And prior, he was doing it without consent.
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That's complete nonsense and kind of falsehoods that have led to people defend Ansari now when initially they were repulsed by his behavior (myself included). Whenever she asked him to stop, he did so. She gave him oral sex when he asked or pushed her to do so. You can loop through several mental gymnastics to say she was pressurised into doing that but it is demeaning to infantilize an adult woman's agency to say no to giving a blowjob on first date. (Unless she is under threat of violence which she did not say she was as per the babe article). If we are talking about consent then she used the same to stop the sexual encounter at 3 separate occassions, permanently ending it eventually. So she always had the power to stop at any time but kept on at it for whatever fantasy she had for the date.
 
Silva said:
If he doesn't want to be known as a sexual predator, he shouldn't be acting like some kind of pornstar with a woman who isn't into it.
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Alternatively, she - knowing he's famous, shouldn't be groveling at the chance to hang out with him then feel disappointed by the reality that his only interest in her was sexual.
 
kps88 said:
Look at the sentence after the one you highlighted. Just saying she was wrong and should have left isn't having a conversation or trying to iron stuff out. Understanding why she and many other women are not able to "just leave" is more productive. You can't have a proper conversation without properly listening to the aggrieved party.
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I understand the reasons they've given. I don't think it's a workable mindset long term to strip women of all agency in situations like Ansari's, and put all the onus on the man. Once coercion and/or violence comes into play, discard this, I'm totally with you.

Eboue said:
Correct. And how we proceed is to start listening and taking seriously what they say.
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That is not equivalent to objecting, or raising concerns, when a purely legitimate movement ventures into the absurd.

With every post on here it feels like I'm opposing the movement more and more so I'll shut up. Stop raping women, stop taking advantage of vulnerable women. How do I get banned from a thread?
 
crappycraperson said:
If we are talking about consent then she used the same to stop the sexual encounter at 3 separate occassions, permanently ending it eventually. So she always had the power to stop at any time but kept on at it for whatever fantasy she had for the date.
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It's the fact that he kept at it after being told no. You don't need to escalate it to full on rape to have sexually assaulted someone. And her reasons for staying don't really matter.

Raoul said:
Alternatively, she - knowing he's famous, shouldn't be groveling at the chance to hang out with him then feel disappointed by the reality that his only interest in her was sexual.
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Finally, the classic famous people defence to sexual assault. "These bitches are throwing themselves at me"
 
crappycraperson said:
That's complete nonsense and kind of falsehoods that have led to people defend Ansari now when initially they were repulsed by his behavior (myself included). Whenever she asked him to stop, he did so. She gave him oral sex when he asked or pushed her to do so. You can loop through several mental gymnastics to say she was pressurised into doing that but it is demeaning to infantilize an adult woman's agency to say no to giving a blowjob on first date. (Unless she is under threat of violence which she did not say she was as per the babe article). If we are talking about consent then she used the same to stop the sexual encounter at 3 separate occassions, permanently ending it eventually. So she always had the power to stop at any time but kept on at it for whatever fantasy she had for the date.
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Yeah, I think he was a complete dick throughout a lot of this and was being quite forceful but whenever she actively told him to stop it appears he did so. It appears he was under the impression she wanted to take things slowly/not jump into performing certain acts etc. He was presumably very determined to move ahead with the encounter and therefore encouraged her to continue, but at no point did he actively assault her and when he asked for oral she complied. Again - if she didn't want to do that then she should've told him no. And again, I get that these sorts of encounters can be very intimidating for women because there's obviously a fear of what'll happen sometimes if they say no, but still - if you don't want to do something then you should communicate that to the partner you're with. Consent is obviously an ongoing as opposed to static process and the fact she engaged in certain acts didn't automatically mean she was comfortable with other ones, but if she felt bad about doing certain acts then she should've said so directly, or left.
 
Silva said:
It's the fact that he kept at it after being told no. You don't need to escalate it to full on rape to have sexually assaulted someone. And her reasons for staying don't really matter.


Finally, the classic famous people defence to sexual assault. "These bitches are throwing themselves at me"
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They don't just throw themselves at celebrities - they consciously and knowingly do it for their own personal aggrandizement. As in "I socialize with a celebrity, therefore I must be someone". Its happened for decades through the entire Hollywood, Rock-n-Roll, Hip-Hop, and NFL/NBA/MLB eras.
 
Silva said:
On the contrary. The dangerous territory is saying that your story doesn't count because your abuser isn't as bad a (insert line you don't cross).
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This discussion has been going around in circles since the story broke. Has anyone said that the story doesn't count because the abuser "isn't as bad"?

I have the read the article twice now in trying to make certain that I understand her point of view fully. Being a male it is difficult to put myself in her shoes but I have tried do that too. To me what happened was that being the first date she didn't want to put out and Aziz being a celebrity thought it was all game and kept pushing for more. Now he didn't coerce her or force her into things but he kept making insinuations and made her uncomfortable. At that point, I don't know why she didn't walk out or forcefully asked him to stop, full stop. It seems like she was interested in keeping it going but not ready to go the length that he wanted to on that particular night. He should have taken it slow and she should have walked out when he didn't. I don't know what else is there to see here.

Calling him an abuser, of whatever level, is over the top.
 
DdeGoat said:
This discussion has been going around in circles since the story broke. Has anyone said that the story doesn't count because the abuser "isn't as bad"?
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Yes. Not only about this, but also others like Louis C.K. Usually by comparing them to Weinstein and Spacey.

DdeGoat said:
I have the read the article twice now in trying to make certain that I understand her point of view fully. Being a male it is difficult to put myself in her shoes but I have tried do that too. To me what happened was that being the first date she didn't want to put out and Aziz being a celebrity thought it was all game and kept pushing for more. Now he didn't coerce her or force her into things but he kept making insinuations and made her uncomfortable. At that point, I don't know why she didn't walk out or forcefully asked him to stop, full stop. It seems like she was interested in keeping it going but not ready to go the length that he wanted to on that particular night. He should have taken it slow and she should have walked out when he didn't. I don't know what else is there to see here.

Calling him an abuser, of whatever level, is over the top.
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She said no. He said okay, let's watch TV. He immediately started again.
 
adexkola said:
I understand the reasons they've given. I don't think it's a workable mindset long term to strip women of all agency in situations like Ansari's, and put all the onus on the man. Once coercion and/or violence comes into play, discard this, I'm totally with you.
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You could argue coercion is a big part of our sexual culture.

I agree both sides need to take more responsibility. In a perfect world, all women would be comfortable enough to give you a firm no and walk out. But that's not the case at the moment so we need to look inward and figure out why, instead of putting all responsibility on the woman.
 
Silva said:
It's the fact that he kept at it after being told no. You don't need to escalate it to full on rape to have sexually assaulted someone. And her reasons for staying don't really matter.


Finally, the classic famous people defence to sexual assault. "These bitches are throwing themselves at me"
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Yes , I know what she said was a critical point. So what if he tried to re initiate sex after that? That makes him a bigger creep for sure. But as long as he didn’t physically force himself on her it is not an assault in anyway. He pointed to his penis and asked for a blow job. Instead of giving one she should have said no or even “feck you” and asked for a cab. If there were other circumstances in play like her job was dependent on him or there was threat of physical violence, I would agree with you 100% but in this case there is nothing to excuse an adult woman (yes people in their 20s qualify as adults) from using her agency to stop the date full stop.
 
kps88 said:
You could argue coercion is a big part of our sexual culture right now.

I agree both sides need to take more responsibility. In a perfect world, all women would be comfortable enough to give you a firm no and walk out. But that's not the case at the moment so we need to look inward and figure out why, instead of putting all responsibility on the woman.
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I don't think people are necessarily putting all of the responsibility on the woman though - just recognising that she has her own agency and should verbally communicate if she doesn't want to perform a certain sexual act.
 
Cheesy said:
Yeah, I think he was a complete dick throughout a lot of this and was being quite forceful but whenever she actively told him to stop it appears he did so. It appears he was under the impression she wanted to take things slowly/not jump into performing certain acts etc. He was presumably very determined to move ahead with the encounter and therefore encouraged her to continue, but at no point did he actively assault her and when he asked for oral she complied. Again - if she didn't want to do that then she should've told him no. And again, I get that these sorts of encounters can be very intimidating for women because there's obviously a fear of what'll happen sometimes if they say no, but still - if you don't want to do something then you should communicate that to the partner you're with. Consent is obviously an ongoing as opposed to static process and the fact she engaged in certain acts didn't automatically mean she was comfortable with other ones, but if she felt bad about doing certain acts then she should've said so directly, or left.
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What I m posting now and my first post on reading the article are miles apart now :lol:. This will be last post on this topic, forgot you can’t change anyone’s mind on the internet.

I think terming this assault in anyway is going too far. How much coercion played a role should be the debate here and also why women felt compelled to go on given her lack of comfort from the start. The celebrity culture and entitlement is definitely at blame there.
 
Silva said:
And she did verbally say no.
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He asked for oral. She gave him it. He was being a bit too forward/forceful by starting again so soon after she'd said no to a certain act but he would've presumably discerned that as meaning she just wanted to pause/hold-off the encounter for a while and that she was still interested considering she stayed around. If she wanted to call off the encounter completely then she should've said so. Especially when her later actions contradict that idea.

And I say that while recognising that a lot of women in such situations regularly are coerced into doing stuff they don't want to, and that differences in physicality mean they often feel intimated. Still, though - if she didn't want to perform a certain act then she should've communicated that instead of doing it.
 
Silva said:
Yes. Not only about this, but also others like Louis C.K. Usually by comparing them to Weinstein and Spacey.


She said no. He said okay, let's watch TV. He immediately started again.
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And then she proceeded to blow him. Instead of saying Aziz, enough, you are a fecking sleazeball and I am outta here.

I have an opinion on C.K too but I guess there is no hope if this is construed as assault.
 
Cheesy said:
I don't think people are necessarily putting all of the responsibility on the woman though - just recognising that she has her own agency and should verbally communicate if she doesn't want to perform a certain sexual act.
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Most people are saying what she should have done, nothing on what he could have done better. That sounds like putting it all on her.
 
jojojo said:
I read the article. My first reaction was that it's the classic "celeb, bad one night stand" kiss and tell story rewritten for 2018. But it wasn't even really that, she wanted a date, he wanted a one night stand. His celebrity only entered the equation as an angle to question him on hypocrisy, which is fair enough but probably irrelevant to me, because I'm not part of his audience.

So what I drew from it. He's an insensitive idiot who you wouldn't want to date, or have sex with. Whereas she's missed the bit about sexual freedom, that means if you want to use it as part of your own life, then you're responsible for your own conduct - including deciding where things stop and communicating that.

Body language offers great clues, if you're emotionally and sexually compatible it may well offer all the clues you need. If you aren't emotionally and sexually compatible then there's a good chance that relying on it won't work. That's kind of why people usually go out on a date - to find out the chances of that compatibility existing.

It's usually safer, emotionally and physically, to find that out while you're both still fully clothed, and to do it before you're alone in a private apartment. If you do end up alone together after a date - then words become vital. Maybe that's something people have to re-learn (even if it sounds like a throwback to 50 years ago) - empathy isn't a synonym for mindreading. A concept that ideally should work both ways, the eager one asking, the more reticent one responding honestly and directly. Incompatibility is exactly that, which may mean that what's obvious discomfort to one person may just not be seen in the same light by the other one.
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Good post.
 
kps88 said:
Most people are saying what she should have done, nothing on what he could have done better. That sounds like putting it all on her.
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It isn't. I've acknowledged several times that he was acting like a creep. He was being forceful. He tried to re-initiate the encounter just moments after she'd asked if they could stop and clearly didn't gauge the fact that she was uncomfortable. I'm not for a moment denying any of that and he still comes out of this story in an incredibly bad light.
 
Cheesy said:
It isn't. I've acknowledged several times that he was acting like a creep. He was being forceful. He tried to re-initiate the encounter just moments after she'd asked if they could stop and clearly didn't gauge the fact that she was uncomfortable. I'm not for a moment denying any of that and he still comes out of this story in an incredibly bad light.
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Fair enough, that's you. There's a lot of people who feel he did nothing wrong though, which is part of the problem.
 
kps88 said:
Fair enough, that's you. There's a lot of people who feel he did nothing wrong though, which is part of the problem.
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Oh yeah - absolutely. Not denying there's still a problem, or that certain people don't see anything wrong in this at all.
 
kps88 said:
You could argue coercion is a big part of our sexual culture.

I agree both sides need to take more responsibility. In a perfect world, all women would be comfortable enough to give you a firm no and walk out. But that's not the case at the moment so we need to look inward and figure out why, instead of putting all responsibility on the woman.
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kps88 said:
Most people are saying what she should have done, nothing on what he could have done better. That sounds like putting it all on her.
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kps88 said:
Fair enough, that's you. There's a lot of people who feel he did nothing wrong though, which is part of the problem.
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In the context of this thread, that’s a straw man. I’m sure there are people out there deciding he’s done absolutely nothing wrong, just like there are people saying he’s a monster who should be locked up immediately. Contentious issues always attract extremist views. Especially from the safety of posting anonymous opinions on the internet.

In this thread, though, opinions much more nuanced. And I suspect that the majority of opinions are less binary than what you’re arguing against. The consensus on the caf seems to be that his behaviour was fairly entitled/unpleasant and not how anyone would want or expect a man to behave in that scenario. Where people are drawing the line is the idea that he behaved so badly he needed to be outed and publicly shamed, as well as he idea that the girl is completely devoid of responsibility for the way things turned out.
 
kps88 said:
Most people are saying what she should have done, nothing on what he could have done better. That sounds like putting it all on her.
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Yeah,because she the one publicizing her unhappy experience, l'm sure he wasn't too happy the either, he probably expected to have sex with her but did what most of us would do if we had a bad date, whinge to our friends.

Well, to be fair if l had a any kind date with Rihanna l might want to publicize it.
 
DdeGoat said:
And then she proceeded to blow him. Instead of saying Aziz, enough, you are a fecking sleazeball and I am outta here.

I have an opinion on C.K too but I guess there is no hope if this is construed as assault.
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Out of interest, what's your opinion on C.K?
 
I'm broadly in line with this opinion piece in the NYT on the Ansari stuff: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/opinion/aziz-ansari-babe-sexual-harassment.html

And also this reader comment on the piece:
Katy
Cedar Falls, Iowa

"Grace" stayed in hopes of pleasing Ansari just enough to prompt a second date. She says she might be more willing on a second date. Ansari answers - If I pour you another glass of wine can we call it a second date? Right there she had her answer, but she stayed. She may say he didn't respond to her non-verbal cues but she never listened to his repeated voiced cues!
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Pogue Mahone said:
In the context of this thread, that’s a straw man.
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There's a couple in here who think it was just a clumsy bad date. Saw the same stuff during the CK episode as well. A lot of "she should have done this" and not enough "he shouldn't have done that". And I'm not limiting my views to just the context of this thread anyway.
 
Something else that needs to be considered here is that he’s being damned by her version of events. If we assume that the truth is less one-sided and his actions would come across better if we’d been a fly on the wall (which has to be the case, right?) then this witch-hunt seems even harsher and more unnecessary.
 
Cheesy said:
He asked for oral. She gave him it.
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crappycraperson said:
He pointed to his penis and asked for a blow job. Instead of giving one she should have said no or even “feck you” and asked for a cab.
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DdeGoat said:
And then she proceeded to blow him. Instead of saying Aziz, enough, you are a fecking sleazeball and I am outta here.
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What Silva (and me earlier) is referring to is after she said "no, I don't want this" (paraphrasing) and they redressed and sat down to watch telly. When he then proceeded to start kissing her and trying to undo her pants, he overstepped a bound. In a lot of places, that definitely qualifies as sexual assault.
 
Halftrack said:
What Silva (and me earlier) is referring to is after she said "no, I don't want this" (paraphrasing) and they redressed and sat down to watch telly. When he then proceeded to start kissing her and trying to undo her pants, he overstepped a bound. In a lot of places, that definitely qualifies as sexual assault.
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Any chance of a sexual assault argument is obliterated by the fact that she willingly gave him a blowjob. When properly contextualized, this was little more than a bad date that she is obviously upset about because she thought she could leverage Ansari's celebrity to hang out with someone famous and maybe do a bit of networking and career advancement.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Something else that needs to be considered here is that he’s being damned by her version of events. If we assume that the truth is less one-sided and his actions would come across better if we’d been a fly on the wall (which has to be the case, right?) then this witch-hunt seems even harsher and more unnecessary.
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Very true. If he wrote his own essay about what happened, I'm sure we would get a completely different account.
 
Raoul said:
Any chance of a sexual assault argument is obliterated by the fact that she willingly gave him a blowjob. When properly contextualized, this was little more than a bad date that she is obviously upset about because she thought she could leverage Ansari's celebrity to hang out with someone famous and maybe do a bit of networking and career advancement.
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Jesus, the amount of wild speculation in this post...
 
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