The whole point of the MeToo movement is highlighting just how frequent sexual assault is, and how it has happened to so many people.
So yeah, a lot of people have been victims.
Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc
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The whole point of the MeToo movement is highlighting just how frequent sexual assault is, and how it has happened to so many people.
So yeah, a lot of people have been victims.
But the actual victims aren't helped by everyone with an uncomfortable experience claiming to be one. I just read this, it says it better than I could:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-anyone-who-wants-to-derail-metoo/?tid=pm_pop
I know, but I just feel it's a waste of time arguing over whether you call this assault or not. Or arguing whether it is as bad as other cases or not. Or whether it is part of #metoo or not. I think a lot of it is because it's hitting a little too close to home for a lot of men and women.
She shared her side of it and he shared his. It's a messy situation but the conversation should now move past this one specific case and focus on the larger issue. Lots of people think she should have just left and lots of people are relating as to why she didn't. It's more productive to try and understand why so many women can relate to why she didn't leave rather than just focusing on attacking the woman/defending Aziz.
Also worth talking about how this sort of thing doesn't just happen when there is something at stake, like you mentioned. The normal power dynamic between a man and woman can be enough to cause something like this, as countless women have told us.
Legally speaking, no will more often than not have to be said before it's considered rape (or sexual assault). That doesn't change the fact that even if the victim didn't say no, they are still entitled to feel violated if they didn't want it to happen.
We're not talking consent forms here, but a minimum of communication should be expected. It goes both ways, I agree, but if your partner is seemingly reluctant, then ask them to make sure that they're up for it. Don't just go "well, they haven't said no, so I'm free to press on".
I agree, she should have left sooner, and she was probably clinging to the hope that he was more like what his image might suggest, and thought that if she stuck around she might get to see more of that side of him. I wasn't talking about pressure from his status, just him generally trying to pressure a reluctant woman into having sex with him. And her sticking around, for whatever reason, made him think she was slowly coming around to the idea.
His understanding every time she made it clear she wasn't comfortable could have contributed to her thinking they might still have a good time without having sex. I agree she should have left earlier, but when she actually did say no, and they redressed and sat down to watch telly, I don't think it's wrong or outrageous for her to assume that he was done making sexual advances, and that they could still just hang out and chat or whatever.
People are debating it because it is the biggest talking point in culture right now. It is also the reason why that the cat story went viral. This is from the NYT article -
May be it is a turning point but what actually constitutes harassment or assault is a debate worth having since it will also start to alter social behaviour in coming decades. For example - I can see relationships/marriages among folks working in same organisation being reduced in numbers in future.
The majority of people have been victims of sexual assault. About half of males and 99% of females is the top end of estimates.
I’ve no idea where those stats come from but if they’re true then the definition of sexual assault has been bent all out of shape by the researchers.
I think it says more about mens attitudes towards sex. "Oh, he only shoved his hand down your mouth and put his dick in your face after you said this is too much, it's not even rape why are such a cnut lady" shouldn't be a valid defence.
There's also a lot of men and women who are unwilling to break taboo's around their abuse, particularly from long term partners. Preferring to shove it deep inside and pretending it's fine.
Also, high rates of incidence doesn't prove there will always be high rates of incidence. Single mothers used to have their kids stolen by nuns, but that was stopped when people realised it's a shitty thing to do.
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What you described there probably is sexual assault. There’s no way 99% of woman have experienced this. The incident described in the Ansari case isn’t assault either. Not by any ressonable definition.
And, as is always the case, with issues like this the efforts to extend the definition of wrongdoing to as include essentially normal (albeit crass or ill-judged) interactions just ends up trivialising genuinely malicious behaviour.
I also think it’s shitty for the self-esteem and self-respect of women in general to encourage them to think back on every awkward or disappointing sexual encounter as a sexual assault they were too weak-minded to report to the authorities. I think most women are quite capable of identifying real sexual assault when it happens and it’s absurd to think that 99% of them have experienced it yet only a tiny % have the courage to report it.
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a few minute window of the date said:
Does a woman have to say "stop it you're raping me" before you get the message to stop?
I think a lot of people here are over simplifying this. I've read a lot of women on this story say that it's not just as simple as saying "I want to leave" because what comes next could be "ok I'll call you a cab" or it could be "you're not going anywhere". It probably would have been the first one, but they just don't know and sometimes feel like not bringing the issue to a head is the best way to quietly get out of there.
That's great and all but what about legal definitions and statistics?
Has anyone asked Jordan Peterson what he thinks about this?
Everything but a yes is a no. You can apply this to all kinds of human interaction.
If (and big if) this is true, it says it all.
Probably having flashbacks to "hey sugartits, how about I buy you some tequila"
"uh n"
"WHAT I WAS BEING NICE YOU FECKING WHORE"
A substantial number of people, like myself, are also introverts, and feel incredibly uncomfortable when strangers act like your best friend.
As with everything, context matters. Politely asking a girl for a drink at a bar when you're both on a night out and she doesn't seem to be with anyone else should be fine. Doing it in, say, a professional setting, or when she's clearly with someone else, isn't on. But...again, as events like this are open to interpretation it's not always easy to gauge what reactions will be, since obviously different people will be alright with different stuff, and will be more comfortable with approaches etc.
But being an introvert or having a bad past experience shouldn't mean that the next person to offer to buy you a drink should be considered to be harassing you. There are pricks in the world but projecting their intentions onto the actions of others is surely not the best way forward either. it should be considered unwelcome for sure but not tantamount to harassment if you say no and they move on.
Polling is pointless.
If I'm sitting somewhere with my head down, just enjoying a quick drink to myself I might forgive the first two or three people who try to strike up a conversation. But not after 20 or 30, every time I try to do something, as some women experience. I'd also start feeling fecking pissed off at the world.
A pretty clear message would be by stopping herself first. You know, by not sucking his dick the moment he points at it. How’s that for a non-verbal cue? Even if for - some strange reason - she wasn’t willing or able to put her lack of consent into words that would be a very obvious way to express it physically.
And all of this is in a context where he has at no point made any kind of threat, physical or otherwise, of adverse consequences if she doesn’t comply. The opposite, if anything.
None of that context was included in the poll, this is a one off incident based on a single action (and no follow ups), one man asking one girl for a drink and 1 in 4 of the women polled felt that this was harassment.
Even in your scenario, I can see why a woman would be pissed off but if each man asked once and walked away when a polite no was given it would still not be harassment. Just hugely unwelcome attention.
Undoubtedly.
He’s a dipshit who didn’t sexual assault anybody. And she has zero grounds for trying to imply that he did.
Eh...
Frat douchebag? Probably. But that's pushing it. (no pun intended)
Edit: I'll clarify. He was looking to get his nut off, with a chick he thought was all for it. That's not enough to even call him a bad person. Self-centered in the moment? Probably.
In general that is true but the girl pretty much laid out every single thought in her head in that article, nowhere once did she express any fear of being forced to stay there without her will.
I have defended Ansari a bit today but I will say that this episode has poo pooed over his sermons on modern dating via his monologues and tv show.
I don't think it does either.
How was that rape in anyway? I thought trivialising rape by being flippant about it was frowned upon? I think the woman in question needs to reevaluate her self esteem and confidence if she feels pressured to indulge in sexual activities just because someone asks her to after a single date, that too after she has already been creeped out by him. On his obnoxious and vulgar demand, she should have said a simple "NO" and asked for a cab home. Is he being vulgar and overly aggressive in trying to continuously veer the date towards sex? Yes. Does that substitute for an adult woman's own agency to not indulge in any such act willingly given the circumstance of it being a first date? No.
The Babe article is a wretched piece of shit. However if the details are accurate then I struggle to see how anyone could defend some of his actions, or write it off as a bad date. It reads as fecking despicable behaviour to me. I would hope it was criminal.
The articles and news reader cnut that are attacking the accuser are very unpleasant.
Very basic knowledge of the fight/flight response and the way that power, authority and coercion effect human psychology and behaviour, should make it clear that just saying no or running out often doesn't happen. Under pressure and in unpleasant situations most of us behave irrationally. The Lisa Gier King case comes to mind as do old favourites Milgram and Zimbardo.
That said it still has to be treated as allegation and denail right now.
The articles and news reader cnut that are attacking the accuser are very unpleasant.
Very basic knowledge of the fight/flight response and the way that power, authority and coercion effect human psychology and behaviour, should make it clear that just saying no or running out often doesn't happen. Under pressure and in unpleasant situations most of us behave irrationally. The Lisa Gier King case comes to mind as do old favourites Milgram and Zimbardo.
That said it still has to be treated as allegation and denail right now.
No, it happened, he's accepted that it did.
I didn't say it was rape. I was asking what does a woman have to do before psychopathic men get the fecking message? Do they have to wear body armour to protect their arse and tits from being groped?
Not sure if you have seen Master of None (I love the show). But that is supposed to be somewhat auto-biographical and he portrays himself as someone who is almost too slow to make a move on there. Not to mention a couple of episodes are shown from women's perspective on the trials on modern dating and how it is different for a guy and girl to navigate the bar scene in NY. As much as his behaviour was not sexual assault in anyway, it also was not completely normal or respectful of another person.
The question was in reference to a passage in the article so I frame my take solely on that. There is no answer to your rhetorical question. You might as well ask for world peace. I am from a country where all women would attest to being groped at one time or another in public, including all women in my family. Not sure if it is going to change any time soon either.
I've seen a few episodes. The Aziz in the show is different from real life Aziz, who is an A-list actor. I think Aziz' standing in the show is a major factor in his demeanor and what not. Never saw it as a preachy show too.
And the societal response should be "this ends now" not "well, since all women get groped, that's just life, now, suck my dick lady"
The accounts sound wildly different to me. The woman's account doesn't sound "completely consensual".
Our reaction was much severe that a simple statement - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape#Public_protests . Some things changed for the better, some remained the same. It's how real world works. It is yet to be seen if #metoo movement brings about impactful change.
