Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc
- Thread starter Buchan
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Man look...
Not that his statement matters, being a man and all, but here is Aziz's reply.
In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual.
The next day, I got a text from her saying that although “it may have seemed okay,” upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said.
I continue to support the movement that is happening in our culture. It is necessary and long overdue.
-Aziz Ansari
In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual.
The next day, I got a text from her saying that although “it may have seemed okay,” upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said.
I continue to support the movement that is happening in our culture. It is necessary and long overdue.
-Aziz Ansari
Did she not want to have sex with Ansari or is the story more about how quickly he escalated it? Because if you agree to go back to his place you should know he wants sex.
Perhaps both parties should have their lawyers present during the actual fecking. That should clear up all the misunderstanding. I can imagine the male is about to ejaculate and at that very moment the woman's attorney intervenes and demands he stops because it makes his client feel uncomfortable and unsafe.
Hilarious.
I suspect Ansari being a famous celeb has had many women therefore possibly assumed this was just like every other one night stand that he's had. I don't think he's an evil human being rather just another celeb with a severe case of self entitlement - perhaps he'll learn from this. And that woman could've should've said 'no!!!'.
Trial by media where a person is named and judged and the other is anonymous.
That babe piece on Anzari is poor stuff. Partaking in consensual sexual activities after wining and dining and going back to his place (some signs that the article fails to mention), stopping it after giving sloppy blow jobs twice and then hanging on the couch with him naked. What do you expect is going to happen? Your naked on a man's couch, in his home and he's not going to make a move on you? If you don't want to do anything then leave.
It's not sexual assault. It's a clumsy first date/hookup and it's very much in Aziz's character. He's clumsy and he's awkward and that what that day was. He didn't live up to her expectations and she was disappointed by him and was uncomfortable but being uncomfortable doesn't mean you're being assaulted.
It's kind of ironic that this comes out a day after Liam Neeson's poorly constructed comments because this is basically what he was talking about.
To me this is not what me too is about. It's basically gossip that shots on Aziz for being a poor date.
Looking at this Aziz story I can't help but think South park again with the visionary angle once again.
How about the part where she says she told him she that no, she was not ready for this, and they put their clothes back on, only for him to start kissing her and trying to undo her pants while they watched TV?
It's not like I think he's a criminal or anything, but it's clear he was trying to pressure her into having sex with him. If the story is accurate, he repeatedly ignored her trying to shut things down. But because she didn't say the word 'No', he did nothing wrong? If someone is clearly uncomfortable and keeps trying to move away from you, you'd hope that'd be enough for most to take the hint and drop it. There are plenty of reasons for why someone might not want to use the word 'no'. I've never been in a situation like the one in the article, but I have been in situations where I most certainly didn't want to do something, and tried to communicate as much without directly saying "No, I really don't want to" out of fear for how the other person might react.
@Classical Mechanic
In general, I am wary of anonymous allegations too (like the shitty media men list, where literally anyone could add anything into a google doc), but this is a story about someone who went forward, spoke to a journalist (who presumably vetted her), and then provided text evidence.
In general, I am wary of anonymous allegations too (like the shitty media men list, where literally anyone could add anything into a google doc), but this is a story about someone who went forward, spoke to a journalist (who presumably vetted her), and then provided text evidence.
I think you actually have to say no.
Or else, about 90% of married men will never get laid, they have to be persistent until the wife finally says "Oh ffs, just get it over with already!"
A lot of women already assume we can read their minds, why should this be a different matter?
That's too complicated. With all that the women been through the last few centuries, it's time to turn the tables. We should make it simple so that any guys that consent to sex outside marriage can be accused by the woman of rape and will be charged needing only proof of sex had occurred.
If you are married and you think you were "raped", then you at least can file for divorce and get half their assets. No evidence needed since you don't need a reason for divorce.
Such an effective solution and looks like there is where we are heading anyway.
Makes me wonder, if there really is a god, then he really does things out of the box to achieve what he wants. Bet you didn't see that coming?
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To be fair, I'm a guy. If any other guys come up to me and want to penetrate me through the backdoor, I won't find it troublesome to say no. And I sure as hell won't be worried on how he feels if I reject him.
But that's just me. Maybe some other people find it more convenient to get raped than say no.
And I thought the art of rhetoric was dead.
I don't disagree, but as others have said here, signals can be misinterpreted and even overseen, especially in cases where the two participants don't know each other and doubly so if alcohol or other substances are involved (which is quite often). As @Oscie put it "I've had sex with people I wish I hadn't and no doubt some of the people who I've had sex with wished they hadn't" which is something that applies to the vast majority of people who had casual sex i imagine.
You are also right in that sexual assault is not black and white, but we should try our very best to make it so, not the other way around, because one is a serious felony and the other one is a basic human need. My point is that if we start to equate unwanted sexual experiences too sexual assault, then we might find ourselves using jokes like written consent forms as a reality
I agree with this but there is one difference in this situation. She even after being creeped out multiple times by him, continued to stay in his apartment. The instance you referred to, even after that she did not immidiately leave. Now if they had a professional relationship or were already in a relationship of some months, then it could make sense as to why she would continue to stay there. But for a first date it doesn’t make sense. It is perfectly logical that since Ansari had made abundantly clear that he was trying to veer the date towards sexual inter course, he took her continous stay in the apartment as a non verbal cue as someone hesitant but willing to engage further. I am sorry but I can’t buy into all the talk of his status pressuring her into this situation. That’s very much a case in a working environment and even in married life at times. But in this case she as an adult needed to show some agency and not only say no but leave the place all together if she was finding his behavior inappropriate or creepy. Her own fantasy of what he should be like given his comic roles, led to this situation. Otherwise it would have been a normal- boy makes a move after date, girl says no, makes another move, girl leaves - date.
The consent form doesn't do anything. They can change their mind half way through, in their mind, which will show in their body language but without needing to verbally say so, and you become involve in sexual assault if you didn't stop.
There is also a reason why it was published in babe and not a major outlet. They seemingly did their due dilegence but that’s not the point, this is not a straightforward sexual harassment or assault issue. (Not sure if they mentioned that they reached out to Ansari for his side of the story). It is more in line with the fictional story that went viral few days back- cat man or something.
Also the Atlantic writer was bitter towards young women activists but she did have a point about some of the details in the encounter being emphasized more to make ansari out as a pervert. Equating it with revenge porn was unnecessary though.
I read somewhere that a high percentage of women who did actually want to engage in sexual activity have deliberately acted reluctant in order to not come across too keen because they're worried they'll look like a slut. Not saying it's an excuse but it surely contributes to the idea of the woman playing hard to get and the man having to chase her. Not a general point on this thread but perhaps relevant in this case?
Spot on
True. But I guess when she agrees to suck him twice, it's kinda make sense that Ansari thought she would be game for more.
Do you believe that it was sexual assault?
Obviously he did something wrong or else she would probably have slept with him. The way he acted towards her was a turn-off for her but it isn't assault. They start doing sexual stuff, she then tells him to chill. They chill naked so he probably assumes that she just needed a break or something because why else would you still chill there naked? He tries to get her in the mood again in his clumsy way and she's not feeling it. She still doesn't leave. What kind of signal is that exactly? She didn't communicate at all so no wonder their whole date was a clusterfeck.
You can feel afraid, she can feel uncomfortable and feel like she was assaulted but it doesn't read out like she did and she didn't say anything to him until the day after in text where he then apologized. Nothing in that article suggests that anything would have happened without her consent. It was a shitty date based on some fantasy that the woman had of him as a celebrity. Was Aziz rude? Yes he was. Is it illegal to be rude? No. Sexual assault is a crime. If this were a crime he would be on trial but what it really was was inappropriate behavior and yes he should know better. I don't think this article is however fair in the slightest because now people will mention him in the same breath as Weinstein, Ratner, Spacey which is way more hurtful to him then what she experienced.
That's too complicated. With all that the women been through the last few centuries, it's time to turn the tables. We should make it simple so that any guys that consent to sex outside marriage can be accused by the woman of rape and will be charged needing only proof of sex had occurred.
If you are married and you think you were "raped", then you at least can file for divorce and get half their assets. No evidence needed since you don't need a reason for divorce.
Such an effective solution and looks like there is where we are heading anyway.
Makes me wonder, if there really is a god, then he really does things out of the box to achieve what he wants. Bet you didn't see that coming?
What are you talking about.
I would consider myself to be an overly opinionated person, who isn’t afraid to speak up when uncomfortable or have questions etc.
Every time I’ve been a victim of sexual assault I’ve been frozen into silence.
It’s not a simple thing at all, especially for women.
The thing is though she communicated to him that she was uncomfortable, he said he understood.
Then he still persisted to have sex with her - are you suggesting that he did nothing wrong?
By definition, sexual assault is unwanted sexual contact.
So it’s a spectrum with rape and abuse being at the far end.
So you believe that it was?
Going by definition, how could it not be?
I’ve already said that I don’t think Aziz is evil or a mass sexual assaulter, and it’s not black and white. Nor should he lose his career.
I can't understand why she just didn't leave... I understand that she felt "pressured" into doing stuff, but Ansari has no actual power over her (i.e. it's not threatening her job/social credibility etc.), so if she was so uncomfortable and the experience was so horrendous, why wouldn't she leave? Especially when the suggestion was to just chill out... you'd think thats the perfect opportunity to be like "hey I think i'll just get out of here" ... I mean, at no point has she indicated that he forced her to be there, and as soon as she actually spoke up he backed off.
I mean, i'm not a woman, so I can't get into the headspace, but yeah... Ansari was clearly a bit of a knob, but if this is the standard of assault/harassment going forward then it's going to be a lot of guys being outed.
Not only that, but it kind of cheapens the situations of the recent cases/victims we've been hearing about.
I mean, i'm not a woman, so I can't get into the headspace, but yeah... Ansari was clearly a bit of a knob, but if this is the standard of assault/harassment going forward then it's going to be a lot of guys being outed.
Not only that, but it kind of cheapens the situations of the recent cases/victims we've been hearing about.
Don't understand the obsession with what to name it. It's enough to just say whether it was right or wrong. No one is saying he should be in jail so why bother on the legal definition or comparing it to other cases?
The focus should be on listening to the countless women who can instantly relate to this experience so we can improve things. I don't think any sane man is happy about the fact that millions of women can relate to not wanting to have sex with someone but somehow being pressured into doing so.
We need to shift away from this culture of coercion or desperately trying to convince someone to have sex with you. There's work to be done by both men and women on this. Better sex is a win for everyone.
The focus should be on listening to the countless women who can instantly relate to this experience so we can improve things. I don't think any sane man is happy about the fact that millions of women can relate to not wanting to have sex with someone but somehow being pressured into doing so.
We need to shift away from this culture of coercion or desperately trying to convince someone to have sex with you. There's work to be done by both men and women on this. Better sex is a win for everyone.
Thank you.
Thing is, if this conversation was just about whether this behavior is acceptable or not, then the original article would have been narrated/written as such.
It would have been a story about what is/isn't normal on a date (and if it is normal, should it be normal?) and what is/isn't acceptable. It would have been a critique on his action AND her actions... but instead its just a retelling of a date by a woman that's clearly intended to paint Ansari as a villain.
I'm a male and I can relate to this. I've had a sexual experience where I didn't feel comfortable during it, and regretted it afterwards (I was drunk and she had her eyes on me for a very long time but just wasn't my type). Her actions were deliberate and I wasn't thinking (she went on bragging about it afterwards too). It was far from ideal, but i'd never accuse her of any crime, or name her publicly.
And that is where I think this story with Aziz goes wrong. He shouldn't be put through this trial by media, shouldn't be humiliated by having his personal sexual experience repeated on television and elsewhere without his consent. Between the two of them he is more of a victim to me.
Alright I’m out.
If we're labelling that as sexual assault then the majority of people have been victims of sexual assault.
As an aside, I'm fine for anyone to call it whatever they like. My previous two posts were probably pointlessly antagonistic for no reason.
Most won't disagree with this, I myself said that sex by coercion is an issue worth speaking more about. But you can't ignore that the woman herself labelled the encounter as a sexual assault and many others online are also pushing that angle. So a debate would obviously ensue over what the experience actually constituted. Empowering women can not be about removing any agency from them to stop participating in an uncomfortable experience. Power do so can be compromised in a professional setting or even in a married/long-term relationship but in this case to say that woman was pressured into giving oral sex is false. Whatever the social circumstances, she had the choice to leave that apartment at any point, there was nothing at stake, not her job, future prospects etc, it would have been any other normal shitty first date.
Most won't disagree with this, I myself said that sex by coercion is an issue worth speaking more about. But you can't ignore that the woman herself labelled the encounter as a sexual assault and many others online are also pushing that angle. So a debate would obviously ensue over what the experience actually constituted. Empowering women can not be about removing any agency from them to stop participating in an uncomfortable experience. Power do so can be compromised in a professional setting or even in a married/long-term relationship but in this case to say that woman was pressured into giving oral sex is false. Whatever the social circumstances, she had the choice to leave that apartment at any point, there was nothing at stake, not her job, future prospects etc, it would have been any other normal shitty first date.
No doubt Ansari was in the wrong and comes across as entitled and a hypocrite (given the themes of his book, comdedy act and tv show) but a name and shame expose isn't proportionate to the crime. This will impact his career for something that he had reason to (wrongly) believe was consensual. This could do more harm than good because it starts to feed into the witch hunt claims being peddled.