Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc

SalfordRed18 said:
Right and thats fine, so it is relevant isnt it?

For what its worth, you can only speculate on what their reaction was, you cant assume. Though id imagine thats probably most accurate.



Theres a huge jump and all the stuff in the middle too. Fact is we dont know what their intentions were and its all speculation.

This wasnt a conference room meeting, this was his hotel room in which they were seemingly fine coming back to. As much as people would like to pretend this fact is irrelevant, it is. It doesnt take away from any alleged harassment, but needs to be considered too. Nothing wrong with that.
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Yeh, that's strange, you would have thought the normal reaction would be "Can't we talk over a drink in the bar?" Just seems odd that someone would go someone else's hotel room to discuss business/career.

It doesn't excuse what he has done, but just seems odd to me.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Theres a huge jump and all the stuff in the middle too. Fact is we dont know what their intentions were and its all speculation.

This wasnt a conference room meeting, this was his hotel room in which they were seemingly fine coming back to. As much as people would like to pretend this fact is irrelevant, it is. It doesnt take away from any alleged harassment, but needs to be considered too. Nothing wrong with that.
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This is often said but it was pointed out on Twitter a while back that it's very common for actors/producers etc to hold meetings in their hotel room. Since they've got a fair bit of cash they're not going to in a one bedroom Premier Inn; often their hotel rooms will have dedicated spaces for meetings and the like, designed specifically for such events. It's absolutely possible - and common - for people will go to someone's room for a meeting, and a meeting alone.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Yeh, that's strange, you would have thought the normal reaction would be "Can't we talk over a drink in the bar?" Just seems odd that someone would go someone else's hotel room to discuss business/career.

It doesn't excuse what he has done, but just seems odd to me.
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It's odd because you're not in that business. You'll note that both Weinstein and CK stuff happened in hotel rooms and the women were unsuspecting. Indicates it's a regular thing considering it's not practical to rent out a conference room and these things usually happen at like film festivals and stuff like that so wouldn't be at a house.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Yeh, that's strange, you would have thought the normal reaction would be "Can't we talk over a drink in the bar?" Just seems odd that someone would go someone else's hotel room to discuss business/career.

It doesn't excuse what he has done, but just seems odd to me.
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Because rich celebrities will often have dedicated rooms for meetings/conferences in their hotel rooms and will have plenty of drink on-hand. A common thing in showbiz.
 
Cheesy said:
This is often said but it was pointed out on Twitter a while back that it's very common for actors/producers etc to hold meetings in their hotel room. Since they've got a fair bit of cash they're not going to in a one bedroom Premier Inn; often their hotel rooms will have dedicated spaces for meetings and the like, designed specifically for such events. It's absolutely possible - and common - for people will go to someone's room for a meeting, and a meeting alone.
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Someone also pointed out the scene in Notting Hill where Julia Roberts' character has the journalists meeting her in her suite.
 
roseguy64 said:
It's odd because you're not in that business. You'll note that both Weinstein and CK stuff happened in hotel rooms and the women were unsuspecting. Indicates it's a regular thing considering it's not practical to rent out a conference room and these things usually happen at like film festivals and stuff like that so wouldn't be at a house.
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Cheesy said:
Because rich celebrities will often have dedicated rooms for meetings/conferences in their hotel rooms and will have plenty of drink on-hand. A common thing in showbiz.
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I suppose so, they would have a suite with a separate bedroom and, at least, a sitting room.
 
Completely fair enough if its common practice but surely we're not using scenes in movies as means of validation?
 
Cheesy said:
This is often said but it was pointed out on Twitter a while back that it's very common for actors/producers etc to hold meetings in their hotel room. Since they've got a fair bit of cash they're not going to in a one bedroom Premier Inn; often their hotel rooms will have dedicated spaces for meetings and the like, designed specifically for such events. It's absolutely possible - and common - for people will go to someone's room for a meeting, and a meeting alone.
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It ain't just Hollywood, if you're at a conference where there are likely to be countless others from your same industry most discussions are done in private rooms away from prying eyes and ears. Last time I was out in the far east I found I'd been upgraded to a suite with a separate living room / meeting room and it didn't even strike me as weird inviting my female colleague back to my room to discuss the conference and our presentation.

Ironically the previous time we'd worked together she'd been upgraded on the outbound flight to India and found that the "gentleman" in the fully reclining bed next to her was having a Louis whilst peering at her over the screen. He's probably fortunate cabin crew dealt with it swiftly as she'd have probably ripped it off otherwise.
 
Guys, read the article!

The girls explained that the bars were closed and they wanted to continue celebrating their victory, so they readily accepted CK's invitation. There was no question of its being a business meeting!

It was social, which, it goes without saying, doesn't necessarily mean sexual.
 
Will Absolute said:
Guys, read the article!

The girls explained that the bars were closed and they wanted to continue celebrating their victory, so they readily accepted CK's invitation. There was no question of its being a business meeting!

It was social, which, it goes without saying, doesn't necessarily mean sexual.
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It morphed into a general point on my end as people brought it up regarding Harvey
 
Bury Red said:
It ain't just Hollywood, if you're at a conference where there are likely to be countless others from your same industry most discussions are done in private rooms away from prying eyes and ears. Last time I was out in the far east I found I'd been upgraded to a suite with a separate living room / meeting room and it didn't even strike me as weird inviting my female colleague back to my room to discuss the conference and our presentation.

Ironically the previous time we'd worked together she'd been upgraded on the outbound flight to India and found that the "gentleman" in the fully reclining bed next to her was having a Louis whilst peering at her over the screen. He's probably fortunate cabin crew dealt with it swiftly as she'd have probably ripped it off otherwise.
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Indeed. I was going to say it is (was?) pretty standard in the computing industry and similar environments where people are working away from home and want a base to talk in private and with a certain amount of comfort. It's pretty much standard practice that if you're expecting to do any business, or even need to swap technical notes after a day full of meetings, then (at least) the most senior member of the team will have a suite booked with enough space to accommodate the group for discussion and even for presentations.

In fact at some trade shows, it wouldn't have been considered unusual for group meals, drinks etc to be served in the suites, including as pure social "end of a good day" wind-down. I've even been parties in the bigger ones, usually parties thrown by suppliers.

It never occurred to me that I shouldn't go, because I was the lone female. It's a bit sad if that is different for this generation of women.
 
jojojo said:
It never occurred to me that I shouldn't go, because I was the lone female. It's a bit sad if that is different for this generation of women.
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My grandparents always warned my folks about the danger of scoutmasters and priests to us kids and whilst there is always unfortunately that risk there the danger of me becoming a pyromaniac or religious were far worse yet also unrealised. Thankfully there's never as many sharks in the water as the press would like us to believe but it never hurts to keep your wits about you.
 
Bury Red said:
My grandparents always warned my folks about the danger of scoutmasters and priests to us kids and whilst there is always unfortunately that risk there the danger of me becoming a pyromaniac or religious were far worse yet also unrealised. Thankfully there's never as many sharks in the water as the press would like us to believe but it never hurts to keep your wits about you.
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That's certainly true, and it affects a lot of aspects of everyday life - from decisions like where to park the car, to trying to read the vibes from the people around you, to letting someone know which room you're going to.

I'm just conscious that in an industry like showbiz, a lot of career-building is about networking, about smiling at strangers, about looking like you're easy to work with. Auditions don't just take place in front of the camera, they continue over dinner, they continue into the after-party drinks. The predators in the industry take advantage of that overall easy-going, over-familiar mood. Plus, it's often the case that youth and desperation to follow their dream makes them easy meat.

Whereas, as you say about your own colleague, "she'd have probably ripped it off otherwise," may have been the default mental configuration of women in my industry :smirk:
 
jojojo said:
That's certainly true, and it affects a lot of aspects of everyday life - from decisions like where to park the car, to trying to read the vibes from the people around you, to letting someone know which room you're going to.

I'm just conscious that in an industry like showbiz, a lot of career-building is about networking, about smiling at strangers, about looking like you're easy to work with. Auditions don't just take place in front of the camera, they continue over dinner, they continue into the after-party drinks. The predators in the industry take advantage of that overall easy-going, over-familiar mood. Plus, it's often the case that youth and desperation to follow their dream makes them easy meat.

Whereas, as you say about your own colleague, "she'd have probably ripped it off otherwise," may have been the default mental configuration of women in my industry :smirk:
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Arguably true for all industries to a certain extent I'd say, which allows for the abuse of power, although again probably more prominent in showbiz for the ones you've mentioned regarding lofty dreams and ambitions etc.
 
Bury Red said:
It ain't just Hollywood, if you're at a conference where there are likely to be countless others from your same industry most discussions are done in private rooms away from prying eyes and ears. Last time I was out in the far east I found I'd been upgraded to a suite with a separate living room / meeting room and it didn't even strike me as weird inviting my female colleague back to my room to discuss the conference and our presentation.

Ironically the previous time we'd worked together she'd been upgraded on the outbound flight to India and found that the "gentleman" in the fully reclining bed next to her was having a Louis whilst peering at her over the screen. He's probably fortunate cabin crew dealt with it swiftly as she'd have probably ripped it off otherwise.
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I've had training that expressively forbids such appearances of misconduct. We're asked to use hotel lobbies or offices for all official work and reviews.
 
Cheesy said:
Arguably true for all industries to a certain extent I'd say, which allows for the abuse of power, although again probably more prominent in showbiz for the ones you've mentioned regarding lofty dreams and ambitions etc.
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True. I think the showbiz one just has a particularly massive imbalance of power. The ratio of aspiring actress wages to Weinstein's wages, the fact that he probably did spend as much on one of the bottles of champagne they've just consumed over dinner as she earns in an average week. She really might be "living the dream" for a few minutes, enjoying the chat, the glamour, only to get brought pretty sharply down to earth when she finds herself alone with a naked fat bloke, having been invited to a party (or even a "discussion") that didn't exist.
 
adexkola said:
I've had training that expressively forbids such appearances of misconduct. We're asked to use hotel lobbies or offices for all official work and reviews.
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I wondered if that might be the case these days. It's sad that it's been seen as necessary.
 
adexkola said:
I've had training that expressively forbids such appearances of misconduct. We're asked to use hotel lobbies or offices for all official work and reviews.
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That must make things pretty awkward when you're playing away from home. Okay, we've got several big, empty rooms which we can't use, so where can we discuss the companies confidential business? The hotel lobby? Ideal!
 
That was most likely made policy after the company had to settle a lawsuit or two. Can't be held responsible if the company expressly forbids said behaviour and has made it clear through training.
 
Will Absolute said:
That must make things pretty awkward when you're playing away from home. Okay, we've got several big, empty rooms which we can't use, so where can we discuss the companies confidential business? The hotel lobby? Ideal!
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That, or the facility we've travelled to.

Silva said:
That was most likely made policy after the company had to settle a lawsuit or two. Can't be held responsible if the company expressly forbids said behaviour and has made it clear through training.
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Aye.
 
jojojo said:
I wondered if that might be the case these days. It's sad that it's been seen as necessary.
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Like @Silva said, it transfers financial/legal liability from the corporation to the offending employee. Employee training, anonymous ombudsmen, Ethics department... multiple levels of protection against a disgruntled employee saying, "this company did not do enough to protect me from sexual harassment/assault". Which is why it is absolutely mind-boggling that a multi-billion industry in Hollywood just bypassed all this shit in defiance of every risk-management principle, and a comedian can totally feel comfortable with whipping his dick out and jerking off. I know managers who, going to the other extreme, refuse to have meetings behind closed doors with female subordinates unless there are more than 2 participants...
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Right and thats fine, so it is relevant isnt it?

For what its worth, you can only speculate on what their reaction was, you cant assume. Though id imagine thats probably most accurate.
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I guess it could be seen as relevant if the women had given some indication that their meeting was to be sexual. Like if they'd led him on in any way. But if not, and Louis was the first to turn it sexual then that's different.
 
adexkola said:
Like @Silva said, it transfers financial/legal liability from the corporation to the offending employee. Employee training, anonymous ombudsmen, Ethics department... multiple levels of protection against a disgruntled employee saying, "this company did not do enough to protect me from sexual harassment/assault". Which is why it is absolutely mind-boggling that a multi-billion industry in Hollywood just bypassed all this shit in defiance of every risk-management principle, and a comedian can totally feel comfortable with whipping his dick out and jerking off. I know managers who, going to the other extreme, refuse to have meetings behind closed doors with female subordinates unless there are more than 2 participants...
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I guess I find that disappointing. That "glass ceiling" that women hit, seems to be reinforced by it - emphasising that women can't be just part of the workforce. I understand it though, from a corporate perspective. It just feels like normalising the abnormal - as I say, disappointing. That said, if you know that's the policy, you stop booking the suite and start renting the pre-booked conference room - not as comfortable, not as convenient, not as practical, not as useful in a teambuilding sense, but serviceable.

That said, I've acted as what was basically a chaperone to a group of teenage girls in a theatre production, and a group of young lads in a football club. Though you almost always feel like a spare part in terms of the job description, I can also understand the necessity, not only in corporate legal liability terms, but in the preventative sense.
 
jojojo said:
I guess I find that disappointing. That "glass ceiling" that women hit, seems to be reinforced by it - emphasising that women can't be just part of the workforce. I understand it though, from a corporate perspective. It just feels like normalising the abnormal - as I say, disappointing. That said, if you know that's the policy, you stop booking the suite and start renting the pre-booked conference room - not as comfortable, not as convenient, not as practical, not as useful in a teambuilding sense, but serviceable.

That said, I've acted as what was basically a chaperone to a group of teenage girls in a theatre production, and a group of young lads in a football club. Though you almost always feel like a spare part in terms of the job description, I can also understand the necessity, not only in corporate legal liability terms, but in the preventative sense.
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I agree with you, and I think that women are disadvantaged from 2 angles here: sexual harassment/assault in the workspace, and over-compensation by companies and managers that reinforce the glass ceiling you speak about, by limiting networking and mentorship opportunities in fear of the next lawsuit for being too loose and careless. A manager can make an off-color joke with a (white) guy that he can't make with a woman... and that subconsciously matters down the road when it comes down to a recommendation for that next level.
 
jojojo said:
I guess I find that disappointing. That "glass ceiling" that women hit, seems to be reinforced by it - emphasising that women can't be just part of the workforce. I understand it though, from a corporate perspective. It just feels like normalising the abnormal - as I say, disappointing. That said, if you know that's the policy, you stop booking the suite and start renting the pre-booked conference room - not as comfortable, not as convenient, not as practical, not as useful in a teambuilding sense, but serviceable.

That said, I've acted as what was basically a chaperone to a group of teenage girls in a theatre production, and a group of young lads in a football club. Though you almost always feel like a spare part in terms of the job description, I can also understand the necessity, not only in corporate legal liability terms, but in the preventative sense.
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Disappointing but understandable. Through the eons of human evolution, men and women didn't relate to each other as 'colleagues'. It's naive to expect that in the 21st century the sexes can simply don business suits and all the instincts of that long, natural history will be completely overridden.

One of the fallacies of Western liberal civilization is that the society can simply make up 'rules' of human behaviour, and then 'educate' the citizenry into fitting into the nice boxes constructed for them. It doesn't work like that: some common sense appreciation of whether people will fit in the box is needed.

The only communication channel in which men and women can relate in exclusively 'cerebral' fashion is the one we're using now, where bodies are not present. Once they are, all the baggage of the past will have an input into the conversation.
 
I've on countless training events and conferences and have gone back to mine or others rooms on many occasions.

Some have been very professional meetings or working groups, others were social groups or just having a drink with a female colleague.

Maybe it's just me but I was able to enjoy each in an appropriate way without dropping my pants and jacking off like a syphalitic chimpanzee!
 
Will Absolute said:
Disappointing but understandable. Through the eons of human evolution, men and women didn't relate to each other as 'colleagues'. It's naive to expect that in the 21st century the sexes can simply don business suits and all the instincts of that long, natural history will be completely overridden.
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Most men managed to deal with it, and presumably they still can. In the 80s 90s it seemed like we were evolving to a point where it was the default assumption, and that if somebody couldn't deal with the concept of respecting a colleague, that was their problem (primal throwback or otherwise).

Like I say, it's disappointing that a troubled and obnoxious minority has managed to turn it into a thing that impacts working relationships between normal men and women. I see it as corporate self-protection normalising the abnormal, and assuming guilt and danger instead of combating it.
 
buchansleftleg said:
I've on countless training events and conferences and have gone back to mine or others rooms on many occasions.

Some have been very professional meetings or working groups, others were social groups or just having a drink with a female colleague.

Maybe it's just me but I was able to enjoy each in an appropriate way without dropping my pants and jacking off like a syphalitic chimpanzee!
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Agreed.
 
jojojo said:
Most men managed to deal with it, and presumably they still can. In the 80s 90s it seemed like we were evolving to a point where it was the default assumption, and that if somebody couldn't deal with the concept of respecting a colleague, that was their problem (primal throwback or otherwise).

Like I say, it's disappointing that a troubled and obnoxious minority has managed to turn it into a thing that impacts working relationships between normal men and women. I see it as corporate self-protection normalising the abnormal, and assuming guilt and danger instead of combating it.
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Of course they can, and it's reasonable to expect them to do so. But that doesn't mean that people leave their gender in the closet along with slit skirts and 'I like to do it standing up' T shirts when they go to work. No environment with men and women is ever going to be asexual. A high proportion of women meet their future partners at work.

The point being that some accommodation to that reality has been found to be necessary, rather than maintaining the fiction that the sex of an employee makes no difference.
 
FultonRed said:
I have seen all over Twitter this morning that some of the cast and crew of One Tree Hill have come forward and accused the show-runner and creator Mark Schwahn of sexual harassment. Some of the stories and accusations from the link below are troubling:

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/one-tree-hill-3-1202614198/
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Hollywood must be a hell of a place when a program creator can be abusive to the entire female cast of a show for years and get away with it.

Although I do wish these declarations being issued by actresses after such long silences didn't all sound like The Feminist Manifesto. Simple statements unlarded by so much fashionable Hollywood cant would be more effective.
 
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