Depends whether the people being blamed were victims or not, surely? If they were, well, if the cap fits...
Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc
- Thread starter Buchan
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Depends whether the people being blamed were victims or not, surely? If they were, well, if the cap fits...
You make one grammatical slip in hundreds of posts and people immediately quote it!
To return to the point, everything I say after 'I don't know much about him' should be understood in that context - as an impression.
Interesting that you play the "I don't know much about him" card when we're discussing the most famous/powerful man on the planet right now, yet have no such reticence when wading in to crucify assorted actors/producers in Hollywood. Interesting and oh so very convenient, coming from someone with your obvious agenda.
Has he done anything that he can be criminally prosecuted for? Lots of the stuff i am reading, its wrong and creepy like asking Gwyneth Paltrow for a massage or trying the naked man 
but actresses sleeping or offered to sleep (casting couch) with the director/producers for parts, its like an unwritten rule in Hollywood. Its not really shocking to hear any of this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_couch
but actresses sleeping or offered to sleep (casting couch) with the director/producers for parts, its like an unwritten rule in Hollywood. Its not really shocking to hear any of this.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_couch
Angelina Jolie didn't detail what happened to her, but Gwyneth Paltrow's encounter with Weinstein seems to have been purely verbal. Having once been propositioned by a rich perv in his hotel room, hardly entitles her to a free pass from all criticism of her future behaviour.
I'm no fan of the right, but this case has obvious political overtones without looking for them, in more ways than one.
On the surface: Weinstein is a big Dem donor and is close to the heart of the party - the Clintons and Obamas: an ex-president, another ex-president, and his anointed successor. These are also people who repeatedly through their words and some of their actions attacked the problem of sexual harassment. The juxtaposition is present right on the surface. The delay in response *is* news.
More deeply, Weinstein (and Roger Ailes and Bill o'Reilly) are all examples of harassment in the workplace by a boss. That has also an underlying political angle. The power of the boss, and the helplessness of the subordinate (reporting => black sheep/unreliable/disloyal worker) are questions about how the workplace is organised, which are political questions.
Edited your post to make it clear I'm only responding to the 1st bit)
He laid hands on her. Later, Pitt told Weinstein to "never touch her again". Always helps to read before wading in.
No one is blaming them for driving Weinstein to his actions. "She was asking for it...", "what did they expect?", etc... would all fall under victim blaming.
What I am saying is, where is the moral responsibility to less privileged actresses/actors in Hollywood to report and speak out on these allegations? Does that disappear because they may have been spoken to, touched, or groped at inappropriately? And why is this victim blaming (a phrase that only gets thrown around when sex is involved)
People get thrown under the bus all the time for making decisions that go in their self-interest, but are morally suspectable.
OK - how would you have handled the situation if you were a 22 year old Hollywood actress in 1996?
Don't think you appreciate how hard it is to speak out against someone in power.
Stop it. This is Ethics 101.
If I was in that position, I would not have spoke out. I would have looked out for my own interest. But if all this came out, I would not be trying to solicit sympathy from the public, or making out to be incapable of making the right decision because my hefty income stream would be compromised.
Very good post Pogue. Fully agreed.
"So, apart from the physical intimidation, the career-suicide, the character-assassination in the industry and the media, the dredging of personal and sexual histories, the adverse effect on others' livelihoods, the unequal financial resources when it comes to legal representation, the whispering campaigns about 'troublemakers', and the predictable assault on their credibility...why do these women hesitate to speak out? They've only themselves to blame, y'know."
"And then there's the convenient cultural tradition of these women being deemed hysterical and - Jehovah forbid! - opinionated!"
"Shut up, Judith, and put the kettle on. There's a good girl. Nice arse, by the way."
So all the actors and actresses who've come out since and offered up their owns stories of Harvey Weinstein or others are just trying to get a piece of the sympathy pie? Really? For what ends?
Fair enough. It doesn't change my opinion though.
To me, as adexkola says, 'victim blaming' is about shifting responsibility for the assault from the assaulter to the assaulted individual. Nobody is doing that. But it's legitimate to question the silence of powerful women for years afterwards when they could have spoken out and protected others.
This is very generic, and misses the entire point of the hierarchical systems of power that's at play here.
Terry Crews tweeted out that he wanted to speak out about what happened to him, but he gained to lose so much more because of his comparative position in Hollywood ( typecast B-list star at best) to the unnamed hollywood exec who groped him in public.
And he actually didn't feel the shame or embarrassment to come forward because he had seen so many others do the same thing in light of the allegations against Weinstein.
It's easy to say, 'why didnt you say something sooner?' when you're not the one who has been the victim.
Yes, let's applaud the Right for their refreshing lack of hypocrisy; as the cartoon sheep said, they "tell it like it is."
15 sexual assaults, 2 rapes, numerous accounts of walking in on young girls changing at beauty pagants:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/assault-allegations-donald-trump-recapped/
Ok, yeah, good point. The phrase “victim blaming” is wrong in this context. It’s probably closer to “victim guilt-tripping”. Still a shitty thing to do, all things considered. Victims of sexual assault are likely to feel guilty enough as it is over their own experience. That’s one of the more distressing psychological consequences. Bit of a cnut’s move to try and load on additional guilt for all the other victims.
Much the same way, I'm sure. I might even have continued to work with Weinstein for the sake of my career, as she did.
But what about when I was rich and famous? And became aware that other actresses had suffered similar experiences? And knew that it was still going on? Would I have felt no responsibility to take action?
After all, Hollywood is full of people eager to make speeches about Donald Trump, or saving the planet.. Why not save young, vulnerable girls in their own midst?
Not sure if posted:
http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...tein-scandal-exposes-hypocrisy-left-and-right
But this sums it up for me. I disagree on the final part about the victims, I understand why they might not have chosen to speak up.
Its really about political point scoring for a lot of people. I say that not because I want to claim that one side is better than the other, but rather it is time for the rational ones on the right/left divide to speak out even if the wrongs are committed by one of their own. Until then nothing will change.
I am still disgusted at how Hollywood has embraced Roman Polanski, even after all that has been revealed.
http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...tein-scandal-exposes-hypocrisy-left-and-right
But this sums it up for me. I disagree on the final part about the victims, I understand why they might not have chosen to speak up.
Its really about political point scoring for a lot of people. I say that not because I want to claim that one side is better than the other, but rather it is time for the rational ones on the right/left divide to speak out even if the wrongs are committed by one of their own. Until then nothing will change.
I am still disgusted at how Hollywood has embraced Roman Polanski, even after all that has been revealed.
Or Woody Allen.
...there it is
Yet another reason for this supposedly hypocritical silence is, sadly, a lack of faith in positive change as a result of speaking out.
Shit. We can all just call Weinstein a cnut, one by one, and then close the thread.
The thing is, he didn't act alone in a vacuum. This structure of casting couches was allowed to go on for as long as it did because people who knew about it, or were directly/indirectly victimized, kept quiet. Understandably, to save their careers, not ruffle feathers, or whatever.
I mean, what's done is done. We're discussing this on a football forum. I'm not arsed enough to go to Jolie and repeat this. And they're not to blame for any predator's actions. But silence helped keep this going, and unless the culture changes, things will be back to normal soon, because a lot of people have willingly used the couch as a way to make it in Hollywood.
There what is? Have you been living underground for the last nine months? It's hard to miss.
Speaking out seems to have had quite an effect here. Certainly saved some future victims from Weinstein. But we can be sure he wasn't the only one, so will they be happy to unmask the rest of the Hollywood pervs now?
You're compounding 'Hollywood' as if it's some binary term.
'Hollywood' is more representative of the Weinstein's and the likes, rather than the Jolie's and the Paltrow's, the latter are celebrities who happen to have had careers within Hollywood, but Hollywood itself is primarily organised, constructed by and composed of the powerful men in power like Weinstein.
Also being rich and famous doesn't somehow absolve you of being a victim of assault/rape/abuse that you can suddenly heal your anxiety or trauma with shopping trips.
This idea that just because people are rich that they suddenly have more moral obligation or responsibility to not be affected by things us poor people are afflicted with is really quite dismissive.
Finally, if you have actually read any of the statements from the people who have come forward you notice a common theme, 'I had heard rumours about his behaviour, but I had no idea who else was affected, or even if it was true', it's not that they were all complicit in keeping these things to themselves - most of them had no proof that this had happened to other people, and even if they did have proof they didn't have the courage or power to stand up to the hierarchy at play here.
It’s far too normalised in this line of work. I’ve known a fair few girls who have aspired to be actors or singers who have said they would happily sleep with someone to get their break. How mad is the industry that people see that as a legit way to get work.
Are some here deliberately 'misunderstanding' the mechanics of power just to make crappy points about victims' supposed hypocrisy & cowardice? Ffs.
Well, at least we now understand why the victims find it so difficult and at times useless to speak up.
I'd say the overwhelming majority of this thread is hand-wringing over how to quantify hypocrisy and cowardice by victims and how much blame to apportion them, which says a lot
By the way, the one person who should have commented on this issue days ago is Quentin Tarantino. Weinstein produced all of his movies (if I'm not mistaken). Yet he refuses to open his mouth on this issue. Considering Tarantino's impact on popular culture, his silence is absolutely shameful to me. I honestly don't care about actors who worked once or twice with Weinstein. But if you collaborated so frequently with him, you just have to open your mouth at one point.
This is very true. A lot of the big names like Paltrow etc who have been on the receiving end of Weinstein's advances and had bad experiences with him probably wouldn't have had any proper confirmation that he'd attempted it with anyone else. As a result, had they come forward they'd have likely been in a position where it was their own word against his - his word being that of one of the most powerful figures in Hollywood with key friends in important areas, and with a lot of sway and power. Any actor or actress pitting themselves against him would've risked ridicule and scandal if their allegations didn't end up going anywhere, and would no doubt receive plenty of comments from people accusing them of trying to stir shite and grab attention.
Kate Beckinsale was apparently called to his hotel room and Weinstein opened in his bathrobe and offered her alcohol. She was 17 at the time.
Yes.
Also, I randomly remembered that Marina Sirtis (from Trek: TNG) had an awful time working for Cannon films (they specialised in 80s action movie producers), which is miles from the profile Weinstein had. It shows how pervasive the behaviour was, and how even much smaller producers had power over their employees.
Exactly.
This whole thread is a prime example of why a lot of women (and men) don't come forward when it comes to cases of sexual assault, the whole culture around this needs to shift in order to see some actual change happening.
Why is this so rife in the performing arts industry?
Because of the difference in power. Young talent is completely dependent on the big guys to give them roles. It's just extremely easy for the people in power to get away with this.
It's actually prevalent in many industries, not just performing arts. There are people in position of power who want sexual favors, and there are people who are willing to provide those sexual favors in order to get what they want.
Paltrow's not the best example since she confided in Pitt who confronted Weinsten and could have vouched for he story, as he did now.
I think one of the high profile actresses like Paltow or Jolie could have taken him on, a lesser one not so much. The reason why no one came out before is not just due the the power Weinsten supposedly could have wielded but also because this kind of behavior is accepted as normal in Hollywood despite the countless statements we may have now. That is the reason why someone like Pitt continues to work with Weinsten when 2 of his partners had been at the receiving end of misconduct by him.
Before the second batch of accusations came in, hollywood insiders were comfortable in saying things like this -
http://www.vulture.com/2017/10/what-hollywood-really-thinks-about-the-weinstein-scandal.html