The very worst mentality in European football. It must drive their fans mad. Just constantly failing at the big moments in spectacular fashion.
BVB (Bottlespielverein Borussia Dortmund) watch | You love to see it | Absolute weapons
- Thread starter Samid
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Nah, I felt that the sentiment on Dortmund was changing here well before that tweet, during the first Sancho transfer attempt to United. The clubs were quite far apart in their evaluations and Dortmund, rather than haggling with United, just plopped their rear down and said "€120m, until that date, or no deal". Woodward did not seem to take that seriously, continued to try and haggle, gave offers quite a bit below the asked sum, and was smacked down time and time again. So the whole thing dragged on until the deadline (the one Dortmund had given) and people here were getting blueballed the entire time.
The opinion on Dortmund was already switching towards the negative then. Sentiments along the lines of "How could the greedy bastards ask this much?" or "How dare they not even negotiate?" looked increasingly common then. People who had been looking forward to the Sancho transfer got fed up with the dragged-out procedure that showed no progress, and decided to blame the uncooperative selling club as if they somehow were obligated to be helpful to United aquiring Sancho.
The tweet was only the icing on the cake when many people already felt negatively about Dortmund. And then insult was added to injury by Sancho never living up to the hype when he finally was transferred.
Made look mighty, only to end up as a stepping stone. As usual.
I don’t agree with that. Plenty of clubs have dug their heels in over fees (Ajax, Leicester, Spurs, Everton, Atalanta and PSG off the top of my head). Dortmund should be a likable club with the way they’re run off the field and their prowess with young talent. It’s just whoever runs their social media is so small time that they’ve become a joke.
Feel free to disagree. That was merely my personal impression that I had gotten during that summer, that the vitriol had already settled in well before that tweet.
Yep, its a combination of both.. the way Dortmund went about the transfer and then their social media after.
I actually used to like Dortmund under Klopp, wanted them to do well but now.. I want them to do the opposite, love watching them crumble.
Also, during that time having a few discussions with the German fans, it seemed they were happy just getting to groups of CL with the odd good CL run like last season and be happy with a losing finalist position.
They are also happy in the league / cups not really winning things, just to be partially competitive. That's how it looked anyway, they know Bayern will win the league and they dont have faith in their own team.
Ofcourse their support is great but you expect that in Europe, alot of clubs have great support.
Its the whole clubs mentality to be the Spurs.
It always brings me great pleasure seeing Dortmund lose an important football match in such manner. I don't like seeing Real Madrid winning a football match but I despise the yellow shitstains.
While I often disagree with you, I think you are spot on about Dortmund here. It's truly baffling how that club settled on "being second in Germany" and is stumbling around for a decade now. It's not great for German football that they settled on this while the clubs with the right mentality lack the resources to do it consistently. Looking at Frankfurt here for example who have an excellent record against Bayern in the last decade and perhaps not surprisingly are the most successful club in that timeframe (after Bayern) with one German Cup and one Europa League win (Leipzig and Dortmund won two German Cups and a Supercup in that timeframe, but I rate the EL higher).
The Sancho saga definitely damaged their brand. Their entire business model is predicated on being a Tier 2 club who punch above their weight by purchasing high potential players at a young age for an affordable price and then turning over a profit by allowing them to seamlessly move on.
Their cuckold system of being a stepping stone is what gave them the market power to acquire young players as they knew it'd be guaranteed first team game time, in a top five league and Champions League to develop and prove themselves to a long-term suitor who would buy them.
By being greedy over the transfer deal, retaining an unhappy player who had agreed personal terms away from the club and then acting petulantly over the setting of arbitrary deadlines which they then mocked United for on socials, has damaged them. Players have been thinking twice about going there. Tier 1 clubs are now hesitant to do business with them.
You love to see it.
Their cuckold system of being a stepping stone is what gave them the market power to acquire young players as they knew it'd be guaranteed first team game time, in a top five league and Champions League to develop and prove themselves to a long-term suitor who would buy them.
By being greedy over the transfer deal, retaining an unhappy player who had agreed personal terms away from the club and then acting petulantly over the setting of arbitrary deadlines which they then mocked United for on socials, has damaged them. Players have been thinking twice about going there. Tier 1 clubs are now hesitant to do business with them.
You love to see it.
I don't like Dortmund but the bold part just isn't true.
You love to see it!
I would agreet o that.
The shocking thing about Dortmund is: WTF are they doing with all the money from their sales? They should either be rich or have a great squad, but...
Yep, I get it if the club is struggling financially or doesn't have the pull etc.. like you mention Frankfurt where they want to win things but just cannot financially compete.
Dortmund have money, look at the sales they make from Pulisic to Chelsea until last season Jude to Madrid. They dont spend on players like they used to and the team is regressing and the fans are content. It doesn't make sense to be happy with being just top 4 in every season.
They do spend. The problem is who they spend it on:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/borussia-dortmund/alletransfers/verein/16
True, but again everyone raves about Dortmund's scouting because they have signed a few younger players and sold them on.
That has been their model, sign younger players and sell them on for profit. Unfortunately, there will be more miss than hit on these.
Nobody who actually watches them has been raving about them the past few years. Because their scouting has worsened significantly.
Something people are forgetting in regards to their ambitions or the lack thereof is, that they did once try to compete with us and it almost caused the club to fold. They were incredibly close to that. I think that „trauma“ still plays a huge role in their decision making. It definitely does with Watzke.
I don't even think it's their scouting that got worse. After not winning too often they somehow changed their approach which players they should sign. To me it doesn't make much sense, but to be fair to them they started trying to build a team that stays together and can win something. They did it in an incredibly stupid way, but I still see their reasoning.
Wether it’s the scouting or recruitment is hard to say. But yeah, this new tactic of buying every German or Bundesliga player Bayern don’t care for is amazingly shit. The whole squad has been deteriorating for years.
Their social media really represent them. The tweeting tweeter guy who tweeted deserves a raise. I dont hate the admin, I think theyre doing a fantastic job.
Ever since Zorc retired it seems their transfer business isn't that strong anymore. They still make good purchases at times like Guirassy but a they also bought a lot of flops in recent years I feel.
Yep, just a weird model right now. Even some of the signings they have been making recently, it wouldn't fill you with confidence.
Think the issue now is young players use them as a stepping stone rather than wanting to build with the club. they also tend to go through managers a bit now.
Guirassy is great and close to perfect for them. But Beier (30m), Nmecha (30m), Sabitzer (20m), Haller (30m and not their fault), Malen (30m)... Those are not bad players, but that still is a lot of money while not really improving the team.
The stepping stone thing has always been there, even during the Klopp years. I think the issue is more that they are failing to build a foundation besides those talents, despite aggressively trying to do just that. At the same time, they now completely lack in the „gem finding department“, that once got them guys like Gündogan, Lewandowski or Kagawa. All players that were never seen as these super talented players, but who then turned out great. That hasn’t happened in a while.
They just buy every German guy who can run for too much money and without any plan for them. Looking at guys like Nmecha, Beier or Can is so sobering.
I mentioned it in the rant in the UCL thread, and I completely believe it's true, that the culture in the club also contributes to their lack of success. As you mentioned later there seems to be a fear at the club to try and be ambitious because of what happened last time they tried to win titles. Now it is just that their aim is to be in the top 4 and not even consider whether they can win a title. With that mentality, when the time comes that they have a season where they are close to winning, they complete sh*t their pants and gift the title to Bayern anyways (2023, 2019) or the UCL final to Madrid.
Though I think some of their recruitment has been poor, really overpaying for young players like Malen and Adeyemi but then you have also had the signings of Sancho, Bellingham, Haaland and Maatsen during that time.
What's been astonishing, and frustrating as a Germany supporter, is that plenty of talented players have gone there and either regressed or simply stagnated. I think a lot of that comes again from the culture because those players aren't pushed to get better since at their current ability Dortmund can still accomplish their goal of being a top 4 side. Brandt, Schlotterbeck, Sule weren't bad players before they joined but all of them have regressed (Brandt is the only one you could say has had good seasons sometimes). This is the complete opposite to the Klopp era (even Tuchel) where players were overperforming peoples expectations and it seemed like every player they signed was improving while there. I could easily imagine guys like Malen, Adeyemi and Nmecha looking like world beaters under Klopp or Tuchel.
This goes back to the criticism of Bellingham when he was at the club, where they said in the dressing room he was obnoxious and rude because he kept criticising the players. While some of that is bad on Bellingham, you can understand why someone as ambitious as him would've been so frustrated at that club longer given that they clearly don't want to try harder and win titles despite having the resources (income, fanbase etc).
People compare them to Spurs but for me they are exactly like how Arsenal used be in the end years of Wenger, when he would say the top-4 is a title. Spurs were never big so for them not win titles is not far from expected, Arsenal were expected to be challengers but never had the ambition to do so and it lead to collapses when they could have won (2016).
Can't find it but it was when Sancho was rumoured to be coming here (the summer before he joined) and they announced him signing an extension to his contract with the phrase "you love to see it".
Riled up everyone here
EDIT: found it
It wasn't just this but this didn't help. I remember their fans going on about playing CL football (with about as much chance of winning it as United who weren't in it) and acting like they weren't a stepping stone for players like Sancho and Haaland who left the first chance they got an offer from a big club.
What have Madrid done? If it wasn't for them both Liverpool and City would have more CL trophies. Madrid should be your second team at this point.
Ah yea when we signed Mhiki and their twitter mocked him for being in the EL while they were in the UCL.
Yes, even at their height under Klopp they were still a stepping-stone. Sahin went to Madrid, Kagawa to United, Gotze and Lewandowski to Bayern. After that they saw Mkhitaryan leave to United, Gundogan to City and Hummels to Bayern in one window.
It's a bit like when Arsenal were ticking along qualifying for the CL, but were losing first-team players seemingly every season to Barcelona and City (as well as losing Cole to Chelsea and van Persie to United).
Yep, they haven't been able to find gems for a while. Whilst they signed Bellingham, Haaland and the like, they were known players and signed at Dortmund with a view in 2/3 years they will leave. They are trying this German approach but it doesn't seem to be working either.
Its more difficult now as top European clubs now sign the gems, look at Chelsea, Madrid, United, Leipzig and the like.
What I also dont see is any of the youth players coming through? Leverkusen and Bayern have them coming through too, so Its weird to see what their model actually is.
However; if the fans dont care about winning or competing, the board are happy with how things are and collecting CL funds and the big sale every few seasons, is a sustainable model. Seems like the club from Owner to fans are content with that.
I dont see many Dortmund fans moaning about lack of challenge.
Sahib killed them with his early coward tactical change. You don't do that at the 54th minute
Spurs mentality
Which owner would that be?
I dont think it is Spurs mentality.
Spurs fans actually want to win things, they just cant.
Its not for trying.. they appointed Jose and Conte to try and win a trophy.
I think they are starting to get angry. But the difficulty for them is, that some of the people they need to get rid of, are the same that brought them to where they are now, after years of horrible mismanagement. So they basically have to get rid of those who saved them. That’s no fun and difficult to do, as guys like Watzke still have a lot of credit.
Conversely I think that's why people dislike them, whereas they were much more popular 5+ years ago with fans from other teams.
Interestingly, there was a report around 2018/2019 where it essentially showed their social media sucked and they had the lowest level of engagement because they mostly posted in German, compared to other CL clubs. Since then, their tactic has been to be a 'banter' account and target large opposition fanbases to drive engagement. From a numbers perspective, it works. For example, they are shameful in their Sancho related posts (you all owe him an apology etc. then going completely silent when the loan ended and showing zero interest in renewing or buying at a knock down fee) because it triggers a large % of the United fanbase, same with PSG - they waited like 5 years to troll them after that Haaland celebration thing, did the thing with Barca being crap at corners, Newcastle they posted clips of Geordie Shore etc. It is an M.O. that works only going of social media interactions.
I think the issue is they are the social media equivalent of Maupay, when you're not good enough to dish it out as much as you do, it just gets stale.
Which owner would that be?
I see what you trying here.. we agreed on one thing and you want to go back to us debating again
It just happenedI see what you trying here.. we agreed on one thing and you want to go back to us debating again
Not my fault that Dortmund effectively is fan owned. Some big sponsors own a few percent of the shares but most is distributed along their fans and besides that the club (which consists of the fans/members) controls the team anyway in accordance to 50+1 rules. So instead of mentioning "fans and owner" it could just be shortened to "fans"