We'll need to be patient and give Kovac 2-3 seasons and a few transfer windows to make it 'his team'
Bundesliga 2017/18
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Allow him to build a Kovac machine?We'll need to be patient and give Kovac 2-3 seasons and a few transfer windows to make it 'his team'
Yep. Get rid of the deadwood.
Play (somewhat) successful rather than dominant football.
I am working on this theory that top players are now way too consistent which is why we have seen such absurd dominance from some of the top sides in Europe.
In Bayern's case at least I'd rather put their current dominance down to tactics. Having a dominant match plan that allows them to methodically outplay opponents and in that way utilize their individual superiority in every given moment, rather than the "pragmatic" styles before van Gaal/Heynckes.
But that's also circular logic because you need the quality to execute such match plans so tactics can't be the cause for this dominance and LvG's seasons with us actually show this. In his first season Bayern had "only" 70 points at the end and his second season was anyways just bad (we got to 65 Points at the end). Magath for example managed to be a lot more dominant with his rather conversative approach (titles with 77 and 75 points). Heynckes had 73 points in his first season while Dortmund managed a new record in the same season with 81 points which we then topped under Heynckes with 91 and since then continued to play at around this level.
So I'd agree that tactics are necessary to exploit the quality of your players but first you really need the required quality (that's why Klopp and Tuchel struggled to maintain their points totals after record seasons, Dortmund couldn't keep its team together or built on it and thus tactics isn't enough).
This trend and development can also be seen in leagues across all of Europe, it's the concentration of quality.
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Well, obviously one major problem is that the runner ups simply can't keep their top players. I don't want to start the debate again, but I still think that in hindsight, it wasn't really clever of Bayern to go for Hummels, Götze and Lewandowski. Of course they were great transfers, but these transfers had such a signalling effect. They more or less killed the slightly romantic approach that there could really be a competitor to Bayern in the league and I think the international footballing world recognized it. I think this made it much harder for the BVB to replace departing key players. They were able to replace the likes of Barrios, Sahin, Kagawa and Lewandowski - which really impressed me - but Götze, Gündogan, Hummels and Dembele couldn't compensated and I fear it will be the same with Aubameyang. Bayern supporters will now say that this is not their business and they should only look at themselves. But I believe if it wasn't Bayern who bought these players, Dortmund would have stayed much more competitive and would be more attractive for foreign players. And this would make Bayern much more battle hardened. In their CL winning season they really profited from the rivalry with the BVB.
But I also think there is much more to the problem than it strikes the eye. Many supporters of Bundesliga clubs are proud that the league is so competitive and everybody can beat everyone on their day (except for Bayern). Yet, it is a double-edged sword. In other leagues, the quality gap is so great that the second-tier teams also win their games when they are slighlty out of form. That's not the case in the Bundesliga. Especially in years after big tournaments, teams like Schalke, Leverkusen, Leipzig, Dortmund or Gladbach struggle badly. This is the reason why there are so many stories like Köln in the previous year. However, this makes it much harder for the top teams since they struggle to implement themselves at the top. CL and EL participants are constantly interchanging. And if you are not playing internationally, this again makes it harder to keep your star players, buy replacements and plan ahead (since in Germany, the income through the CL is gigantic compared to the clubs regular budgets and if a team misses to qualify for at least the EL, this means they have to lower their sights and are often thrown back multiple years in their development).
So this "competitiveness" and tension is really a trade off for quality. And right now, we see a negative spiral. The attractiveness of the Bundesliga really detoriates. Half of the clubs play really ugly football and the problem is, they are successful with it and inspire imitators. And then they get thrashed in European competitions, lack the depth needed for three tournaments at once and underperform in the league.
Wolfsburg, Mainz, Köln, they all played internationally not so long ago. It is hard to find a club that hasn't, really. Even Augsburg, Berlin, Frankfurt etc. been there. For peak quality and international competitiveness, this is not healthy at all.
But I also think there is much more to the problem than it strikes the eye. Many supporters of Bundesliga clubs are proud that the league is so competitive and everybody can beat everyone on their day (except for Bayern). Yet, it is a double-edged sword. In other leagues, the quality gap is so great that the second-tier teams also win their games when they are slighlty out of form. That's not the case in the Bundesliga. Especially in years after big tournaments, teams like Schalke, Leverkusen, Leipzig, Dortmund or Gladbach struggle badly. This is the reason why there are so many stories like Köln in the previous year. However, this makes it much harder for the top teams since they struggle to implement themselves at the top. CL and EL participants are constantly interchanging. And if you are not playing internationally, this again makes it harder to keep your star players, buy replacements and plan ahead (since in Germany, the income through the CL is gigantic compared to the clubs regular budgets and if a team misses to qualify for at least the EL, this means they have to lower their sights and are often thrown back multiple years in their development).
So this "competitiveness" and tension is really a trade off for quality. And right now, we see a negative spiral. The attractiveness of the Bundesliga really detoriates. Half of the clubs play really ugly football and the problem is, they are successful with it and inspire imitators. And then they get thrashed in European competitions, lack the depth needed for three tournaments at once and underperform in the league.
Wolfsburg, Mainz, Köln, they all played internationally not so long ago. It is hard to find a club that hasn't, really. Even Augsburg, Berlin, Frankfurt etc. been there. For peak quality and international competitiveness, this is not healthy at all.
For me it is more a question of tactics than of the players that left. It is not about finding a tactic to beat Bayern but to be ahead of the others. And that Dortmund should have done even without this players - especially as they had good replacements.
Hard Rock football worked great in the first two years - but less and less afterwards - atleast at home. Against the international teams it took them longer.
The "spine" of the team that stayed and the players that came back as they did not have success elsewhere are players that shone in Klopp's system.
Hard Rock football worked great in the first two years - but less and less afterwards - atleast at home. Against the international teams it took them longer.
The "spine" of the team that stayed and the players that came back as they did not have success elsewhere are players that shone in Klopp's system.
Have to disagree. Dortmund quickly adapted its playing style and was much more than a pure pressing team ever since their second league title season until Tuchel's departure. Especially Tuchel's Dortmund was a brillant possession oriented team.
Yes, they tried their best with the replacements they bought but honestly, many of them simply didn't perform that well. I think very highly of exemplarily Dahoud. Brillant footballer who has all the potential in the world and could become one of the best CMs. But he doesn't step up to his potential. Not every transfer can work out. And after their back to back Bundesliga trophies, they never really took the next step and push into this absolute top tier of clubs respectively the layer beyond that like exemplarily Atletico did. Just think of the players that left Dortmund since 2010. This would be one hell of a team.
Thus, the critic of the tactic is valid for this season, probably, but overall the problems are different. Bayern's squad is simply so far ahead quality-wise that they beat more or less everyone even if they have a bad day - and throughout the season, this is the case for every team.
Sportbild is reporting (again) that Arp to Bayern is all but done (for around €8m).
Am I the only one whould be genuinely baffled by this? Is he just looking to be loaned out to a different club each year until Wagner and Lewandowski retire, in the hopes that he will be good enough by then that they don't just put someone else in front of him? If the fee is indeed true he could basically pick his club and I'm sure most of them would even allow him a moderate release clause so he can still join a big club like Bayern when he's ready.
There is a fair bunch of clubs with an attacking philosophy where he would probably have very good chances of grabbing a starting spot like for example Hoffenheim who will have to replace Uth and Gnabry or Gladbach where age seems to have caught up with Raffael.
Am I the only one whould be genuinely baffled by this? Is he just looking to be loaned out to a different club each year until Wagner and Lewandowski retire, in the hopes that he will be good enough by then that they don't just put someone else in front of him? If the fee is indeed true he could basically pick his club and I'm sure most of them would even allow him a moderate release clause so he can still join a big club like Bayern when he's ready.
There is a fair bunch of clubs with an attacking philosophy where he would probably have very good chances of grabbing a starting spot like for example Hoffenheim who will have to replace Uth and Gnabry or Gladbach where age seems to have caught up with Raffael.
And staying with Hamburg might not even be the worst thing. He can get his confidence up playing in the second division.
Wagner won't be an obstacle for anyone, Lewa might be a goner this summer already, and Arp is the biggest striker talent in the country. I'm pretty sure he'll be loaned off to a smaller club, like Hoffenheim, for example.
If he lives up to his promise, we'll have a Lewa successor for small money. If he doesn't, he can still pursue his luck at a different club. A Bayern contract is hardly a career killer for a young player.
You're looking at this from Bayern's perspective and for them signing Arp obviously is a no-brainer. But for the player it can make a big difference if he gets to stay for a couple of years at a club that has invested a significant fee in him or if he's loaned out to a different club each year that has no stake at all in his development.
Wolfsburg still run the risk of playing the playout again. They have been on a downward spiral since 2009.
Nice back and forth match between Leverkusen and Frankfurt today.
OMG HAMBURG'S GOING TO STAY.........2-0 Hoffenheim and as easy as it gets.
Was a pretty good game in the second half and there could've been even more goals
Havertz is now the youngest player to reach 50 Bundesliga matches and has 21 scorers (7 goals and 14 assists) so far. Today with two direct assists, too. He's just brillant. I'm surprised that there isn't many rumours around him internationally, he's as good as it gets for a midfielder of his age. Brandt was superb today, too. Our management has done an amazing job, we currently have six outstanding talents with Brandt, Havertz, Bailey, Tah, Retsos and Henrichs and they all have long term contracts. And Herrlich was a lucky shot, too. The team plays tactically very flexible and is much better in possession compared to the Schmidt era while still one of the best pressing teams. Don't want to get carried away, but there may be exciting times ahead of us.
Was a pretty good game in the second half and there could've been even more goals
Havertz is now the youngest player to reach 50 Bundesliga matches and has 21 scorers (7 goals and 14 assists) so far. Today with two direct assists, too. He's just brillant. I'm surprised that there isn't many rumours around him internationally, he's as good as it gets for a midfielder of his age. Brandt was superb today, too. Our management has done an amazing job, we currently have six outstanding talents with Brandt, Havertz, Bailey, Tah, Retsos and Henrichs and they all have long term contracts. And Herrlich was a lucky shot, too. The team plays tactically very flexible and is much better in possession compared to the Schmidt era while still one of the best pressing teams. Don't want to get carried away, but there may be exciting times ahead of us.
One of the very few Eintracht matches I didn't watch.
Difficult enough playing away to Leverkusen when your manager states he's off to Bayern in the pre-match press conference and your GK wants out for months.
Was a pretty good game in the second half and there could've been even more goals
Havertz is now the youngest player to reach 50 Bundesliga matches and has 21 scorers (7 goals and 14 assists) so far. Today with two direct assists, too. He's just brillant. I'm surprised that there isn't many rumours around him internationally, he's as good as it gets for a midfielder of his age. Brandt was superb today, too. Our management has done an amazing job, we currently have six outstanding talents with Brandt, Havertz, Bailey, Tah, Retsos and Henrichs and they all have long term contracts. And Herrlich was a lucky shot, too. The team plays tactically very flexible and is much better in possession compared to the Schmidt era while still one of the best pressing teams. Don't want to get carried away, but there may be exciting times ahead of us.
Alario? Still a bit too inconsistant?
What is happening to the German league lately? I was checking the results of germans teams this year in CL and Europea League and wow, they have been atrocious (except Bayern) is it because of the lack of money then? or they are just having a bad year ?
It's a bit of both. Teams like Schalke and Leverkusen weren't even qualified for Europe and those two are usually at least reliable in Europe. Then you have Leipzig which was totally new to CL/EL and they were overall okay but paid for their inexperience. The same is true for Hoffenheim and then you have Dortmund who just imploded this season.
So the results in Europe are certainly worse than they should be but it's also true that a lot of teams had problems. What BL teams currently lack is certainly enough concentrated quality and experience. There are plenty of teams with promising players (and quality) but pretty much all teams except Bayern lack depth (which is ofc down to money).
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The Euro results were partly due to a severe lack of experience. Hoffenheim and Leipzig had never played there, Freiburg, Köln and Hertha were not used to it either. Then you have Dortmund having an off year and that's how you end up with this season's results.
Still hard to tell if this is a trend or not. I expect next season to be stronger since Schalke and Leverkusen will be back in action and they're decent Euro performers.
Alario is not exactly a talent, he is 25 already. However, personally, I am not really that convinced of him. I believe he has only once scored 10+ league goals in his career. Technically he is good and seems to be a good finisher, especially with the head. But he lacks a little bit of pace and to this point, he hasn't completely adapted to a European league.
In all honesty, he seemed like a panic buy to me. You rarely see that with Leverkusen. But we had a real problem with our conversion at the beginning of the season and Herrlich publicly demanded a new striker. Völler and Boldt seemed to think Pohjanpalo and Kießling were enough as back ups for Volland or even more, but Volland himself was an experiment as a lone striker that initially didn't seem to work out. Pohjanpalo directly injured himself long term and didn't convince Herrlich ever since and Kieß is done.
Alario came in this situation. We were desperate and I think we overpaid big time for a striker who was already 24 and whose highest scoring record was 11 or 12 goals in the Argentinian league. He looks like someone who could give Volland a run for his money but I don't think he has the potential to become a Lewandowski, Cavani or similar.
Well that's what you get when every team that gets close to Bayern is getting destroyed in the transfer market. Not by Bayern alone but still, that's been their model for decades now. Buy the best players of team that get too close and even buy the players that could improve those teams while never intending to use them for more than backup.
It was more being his first season in europe and he's scored 1 in 2. I agree not earth shattering but potential to perhaps grow and develop into a 20 goal striker.
Of course you watch him far more than I do so I fully respect that analysis.
Repeating stupid myths like this don't make them true. If anything it's Dortmund who has been hoarding players that could be useful for the 2nd tier of BL clubs, not to mention that we usually buy players from our competition once they have fallen behind us anyways (Götze and Lewandowski only came AFTER we dominated the league, not before and the same is true for past transfers, players like Gomez, Lucio, Ballack and so on all came after their respective clubs weren't competing with us anymore, you could say that was pretty much their motivation to go).
There are plenty of BL "stars" we never got, Van der Vaart, Diego, Berbatov, Özil, Emerson, De Bruyne, Reus and so on.. (or recently Draxler, Sane, Gündogan)
Doesn't that start to get boring?
Not this crap again. Germany had Hertha, Freiburg and somebody I already forgot playing European football. It is an off year and I expect BVB, Schalke, Neverkusen to perform better next season.
There is hardly anything wrong about what I said despite yes for this year the really bad form of the Bundesliga was probably due to other reasons. I mean seriously I know you are a Bayern fan girl and can't take any criticism towards your club but be real for a minute, hasn't that been Hoeneß main strategy for god knows how long?
Same as said above. Bayern uses this strategy since decades and remains the dominant force in Germany largely due to these tactics.
That being said, there is of course nothing wrong with that strategy, it just doesn't help the competitiveness of your league.
At least this strategy will sooner or later lead to Bayern being average in the CL again. Always fun when they take some beating by Real or Barca or become angered if one of their favourite toys wants to leave for a European top club. Together towards international mediocrity again
At least this strategy will sooner or later lead to Bayern being average in the CL again. Always fun when they take some beating by Real or Barca or become angered if one of their favourite toys wants to leave for a European top club. Together towards international mediocrity again
Sure Bayern Munich only get to the latter stages of the champions league each season because they keep drawing Arsenal in the last 16.
I'd be confident that Real will give them another beating shortly.
What tactics? Managing a top club well?
Just remind me, who was the last Bayern players to leave for a top european club against the will of the management? Hargreaves? Ballack? Matthäus?At least this strategy will sooner or later lead to Bayern being average in the CL again. Always fun when they take some beating by Real or Barca or become angered if one of their favourite toys wants to leave for a European top club. Together towards international mediocrity again
Whats with them announcing the 4th place teams coach before the end of the season? Can they not wait til the season is over?
Completely destabilizing for Frankfurt.
Completely destabilizing for Frankfurt.
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According to Bayern it was in Frankfurt's interest to announce early as it gives them an extra four weeks to look for a manager.
Such gentlemen.
I hope Real Madrid give them yet another absolute hiding.
What?? For Bayern this is an annoying nuisance they stamped out. For Frankfurt it's like a bomb just went off within the club, the way this is playing out the fans are sure to react (at the expense of the team) and Kovac lost most if not all credibility there.
And it's not like Frankfurt's season is over. For them everything if possible between EL/CL/nothing next season and they also have a very much winnable cup semi vs Schalke looming. The news was "leaked" two days before their CL "playoff" against LEverkusen.
It wasn't that they were told about Kovac, which i guess they aprreciate as they have to find a new coach. It was about it being leaked to the press.
Just a few years ago, i read a background story about the european football scene which claimed Bayern was among the top three clubs in EU attractive for the very top players (this may have broadened a bit to 5 or 6 recently). They have built a reputation of paying well, and paying reliably. They are refusing to deal with certain agents of the shadier sort, they rigorously cut players who only come for the money but don't care for the club (see Mandzukic, Costa, or a few years back, Diego).
That earned them respect, and more importantly, respect with the right sort of players. I don't think they are on the decline. If a player like, say, Griezmann, would receive an offer from Bayern, he would consider it very thoroughly.
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Don't accept this.
How would Bayern have felt if Real Madrid had announced on Friday afternoon that Juup Heynckes would be their manager next season?
To quote Kevin Prince Boateng - "90% of Frankfurt's successful season has been due to Kovac".
Now some Bayern fans on here don't rate Kovac. That's fine. But he is highly rated by the club, players and supporters they have poached him from . . . and obviously from the Bayern hierarchy also.
I don't entirely blame Bayern for this mess. Kovac comes out of this very badly. Don't get me wrong. . . He's entitled to leave Frankfurt and head to Bayern, a job he rightly points out that is offered to few managers. But there's a classy way of doing business which persistently seems to elude Bayern Munich. . . as Dortmund found out days before the 2013 CL final when it was announced by Bayern that Gotze was leaving Dortmund for Bayern. Kovac should have insisted on silence from his next employers. That never happened & instead he gave Frankfurt the "My contract runs to 2019 unless . . " to Fredi Bobic announcing last week that Kovac was not leaving at all.
As Christoph Metzelder said . . "I find it difficult to believe that this was all discussed in a single day" regarding Bayern/Kovac discussions. This points to Kovac deliberately lying to Frankfurt last week.
It is now a real possibility that Frankfurt will miss out on Europa League football next season (which was achieved four years ago under Armin Veh). A defeat to Schalke in the cup semi final on Wednesday will seem like the season is just drifting towards an inevitable but avoidable failure towards the end with Kovac ending up achieving little more than most other Frankfurt managers have achieved over the past ten years or so.
Yes players are professional but they also expect their manager to behave in a professional manner also.
According to Hoeneß they only met Kovac by chance beforehand because both he and the Kovac brothers happened to be invited to the birthday dinner of his Croatian driver.
And he doesn't have to answer any detailled questions about their contact "because we aren't at the prosecutor's office here".