Bundesliga 2016/17

RW2 said:
One thing I will agree on is that the standard of refereeing in the Bundesliga ia quite unlike anywhere else.

I'm an Eintracht fan & have seen 5 red cards in 21 matches (7 reds in 24 matches if cup matches are included) - three I can freely admit were reds but the other two were complete jokes (Abraham's yesterday & Chandler's v Hoffenheim in December).

At this stage I'm just sick of it. . . Matches being destroyed by awful refereeing.

I've come to the conclusion that there is bias among referees in the bundesliga with it predominantly favouring the "bigger" clubs, mainly Bayern & Dortmund.
This shouldn't be surprising. Referees are human, and of course they make mistakes, but they are also supporters as well as match officials. We all heard Mark Clattenburg refer to Newcastle as having the best team in England this week. All that is required is that these prejudices are weeded out, so that referees are not placed in charge of teams that are likely to be very favourable to.

Surely that's not too much to ask?
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Isn't that just subjective?

If I look at the wahretabelle.de I see that e.g. Eintracht has right now 3 points more and one more goal than it should have - compared with Bayern who would have same points but a 7 goal better goal difference and Dortmund that would have 5 points more and a 4 goals better goal difference.

The media always makes a meal when Bayern seems to be favoured - rarely when it is different and penalties etc. are not given for them like it happened various times since a long time. Müller and Lewy rarely ever get a penalty - not speaking about Robben who might have had dives without contact but a lot more times did not get penalties he should have had.
 
schwalbe said:
Abraham should have gotten a red card in that match though, even quite early if i remember that correctly.
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I was at that match and can honestly say I don't know what incident you're referring to.

Last 15 minutes were a right off, thanks to Christian Dingert. Hoffenheim's Wagner started a melee that was all handbags at dawn, and the ref singled out Chandler for a red despite the fact that it was Chandler who was trying to calm things down.

How and ever, onwards to the next match.
 
The Gladbach-Leipzig match had 4 minutes of extra time, the final whistle was blown at 90+7, because of an injury break. Just shows how ridiculous the whole discussion from yesterday's match about favoring only Bayern has been.

Edit: Köln-Schalke 1-1.
 
Xivon said:
The Gladbach-Leipzig match had 4 minutes of extra time, the final whistle was blown at 90+7, because of an injury break. Just shows how ridiculous the whole discussion from yesterday's match about favoring only Bayern has been.

Edit: Köln-Schalke 1-1.
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I agree with you but surely that amount of added time helped Bayern since it gave Borussia more time to find an equalizer, thus not disproving anything
 
Peyroteo said:
I agree with you but surely that amount of added time helped Bayern since it gave Borussia more time to find an equalizer, thus not disproving anything
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No white text? white text : )
 
Peyroteo said:
I agree with you but surely that amount of added time helped Bayern since it gave Borussia more time to find an equalizer, thus not disproving anything
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It also helped Bayern because Gladbach making it into the EL would increase their chances of keeping Dahoud who Dortmund supposedly want to buy.

don't need white text because it's true
 
Xivon said:
The Gladbach-Leipzig match had 4 minutes of extra time, the final whistle was blown at 90+7, because of an injury break. Just shows how ridiculous the whole discussion from yesterday's match about favoring only Bayern has been.

Edit: Köln-Schalke 1-1.
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Yeah, I was waiting for the uproar as well.
In Bielefeld they had 5 minutes of extra time yesterday with the homeside scoring in the 94th. Again, no uproar about the amount of added time since it wasn't Bayern.
 
Blackwidow said:
If I look at the wahretabelle.de I see that e.g. Eintracht has right now 3 points more and one more goal than it should have - compared with Bayern who would have same points but a 7 goal better goal difference and Dortmund that would have 5 points more and a 4 goals better goal difference.
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You have to keep in mind that Wahretabelle only reflects wrongly allowed or disallowed goals, but there are a lot more referee decisions to influence a game, like offsides, (red) cards, or general ruling. I think it's pretty obvious that the so called "flair players" of the top teams get a lot more decisions for themselves in the Bundesliga (same in La Liga and Ligue 1), then a player like Heller from Darmstadt. Of course they get fouled more often due to their skills, but it definitely feels that on top of that the refereeing towards them is a lot more generous. I think in La Liga it's the worst in this department.
 
Celestiale said:
You have to keep in mind that Wahretabelle only reflects wrongly allowed or disallowed goals, but there are a lot more referee decisions to influence a game, like offsides, (red) cards, or general ruling. I think it's pretty obvious that the so called "flair players" of the top teams get a lot more decisions for themselves in the Bundesliga (same in La Liga and Ligue 1), then a player like Heller from Darmstadt. Of course they get fouled more often due to their skills, but it definitely feels that on top of that the refereeing towards them is a lot more generous. I think in La Liga it's the worst in this department.
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Yeah, but that's just logic. If you get fouled more often, it's just normal and to be expected that you get more decisions in your favor. Simply because you create more opportunities for those favorable decisions.
It's the same with penalties etc. A team that attacks more, will usually get more wrongfully awarded penalties. Simply because there will be more situations in which those can be awarded. But as people seem to constantly ignore those basic principles of logic, they like to think that certain teams or players receive, for whatever reason, a favorable treatment by the refs.
But on the other hand, those teams and players will also get wronged more often than others. If you follow Bayern for example, a guy like Robben, who definitely dives a lot, is often on the wrong side of a penalty or foul decision. But due to the nature of sport broadcasting, of highlight shows, confirmation bias etc. most fans will never or seldomly see a situation in which Robben should have been given a penalty. They only see it when he gets one that shouldn't been given.
That's why I dislike those discussions so much.
 
HTG said:
Yeah, but that's just logic. If you get fouled more often, it's just normal and to be expected that you get more decisions in your favor. Simply because you create more opportunities for those favorable decisions.
It's the same with penalties etc. A team that attacks more, will usually get more wrongfully awarded penalties. Simply because there will be more situations in which those can be awarded. But as people seem to constantly ignore those basic principles of logic, they like to think that certain teams or players receive, for whatever reason, a favorable treatment by the refs.
But on the other hand, those teams and players will also get wronged more often than others. If you follow Bayern for example, a guy like Robben, who definitely dives a lot, is often on the wrong side of a penalty or foul decision. But due to the nature of sport broadcasting, of highlight shows, confirmation bias etc. most fans will never or seldomly see a situation in which Robben should have been given a penalty. They only see it when he gets one that shouldn't been given.
That's why I dislike those discussions so much.
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Who asked Robben to dive in the first place?

Hang on, you seem to be complaining that referees are less likely to give Robben a penalty (or wrongly not give him a penalty) on the basis of the fact that Robben has conned referees into giving him penalties & free kicks in the past.

You cannot have it both ways.

Robben (& Lewandowski in my opinion) is a persistent diver for one very simple reason - he gets rewarded for diving from referees.

I don't want to bring this down to Bayern only (as I mentioned two Bayern players) or even the Bundesliga only.

I'm more concerned with referees themselves.....for they are the deciders.
As I pointed out, as an Eintracht fan, I make a point of checking on the referee on the Thursday before each match . . . Some of them I know any 50:50 decision will not go in Frankfurt's favour.....I feel I know the referees more than some opposition players.
 
@RW2
No offence, but I think you must be a victim of selective cognition. Referees make mistakes, sure. Now that the game is getting faster and faster they probably make too many, but I'm still sure you will have a lot of trouble finding refs who have a clear bias towards or against certain teams, let alone multiple ref who go against one team, that claim is just ridiculous.

Quite frankly it's embarassing because you bring up matches like vs Hoffenheim where your club should've been down to 10 after 30 minutes. If you're this biased yourself you shouldn't complain on a neutral board.
 
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RW2 said:
Who asked Robben to dive in the first place?

Hang on, you seem to be complaining that referees are less likely to give Robben a penalty (or wrongly not give him a penalty) on the basis of the fact that Robben has conned referees into giving him penalties & free kicks in the past.

You cannot have it both ways.

Robben (& Lewandowski in my opinion) is a persistent diver for one very simple reason - he gets rewarded for diving from referees.

I don't want to bring this down to Bayern only (as I mentioned two Bayern players) or even the Bundesliga only.

I'm more concerned with referees themselves.....for they are the deciders.
As I pointed out, as an Eintracht fan, I make a point of checking on the referee on the Thursday before each match . . . Some of them I know any 50:50 decision will not go in Frankfurt's favour.....I feel I know the referees more than some opposition players.
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You don't really understand what I'm saying. I'm not complaining about Robben not getting penalties at all. I'm merely pointing out what I consider a confirmation bias. Robben was just an example, interchangeable with every player who plays like him. Many players dive. Some more than others. But people tend to remember the instances in which a dive was successful more, than the instances in which same players were fouled without getting a penalty or free kick. That is my point. I'm not buying into the notion that topteams get favorable treatment. That's all I'm saying. Topteams are simply more likely to be the benifecery of misjudgement by the ref, due to the fact that they force more situations in which such misjudgement is likely.
The same with Robben or Lewandowski or anyone like them. They have more situation in the opposing box than other players, thus receiving more wrong penalties.
I do also believe they get denied more penalties than other players. But nobody cares about that. Because it doesn't fit the narrative of the big, bad superclub. Because it doesn't take place in highlight shows.

It's all a matter of perception to me. Frankfurt doesn't get penalties that shouldn't be, because they seldomly get into the opposing box. Frankfurt get more wrong penalties against them, because they play more in they're own box. As a fan, you're likely to brush away a penalty that should have been awarded to the opponent but wasn't, due to confirmation bias. Thus you think you're constantly on the wrong side of bad calls.
Yet, I have yet to meet a single fan in my life who honestly believes his team gets a constant favorable treatment or is constantly enjoying luck. No fan believes this. But logic suggests that there should be teams who are more lucky, when there are teams who have bad luck.
As I said, it's all about perception.
 
HTG said:
You don't really understand what I'm saying. I'm not complaining about Robben not getting penalties at all. I'm merely pointing out what I consider a confirmation bias.
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Case in Point: The clear-as-day foul on Robben right on the edge of the penalty box when he tried to (guess what) cut in and the other Player just tripped him without being near the ball. Would've been a great position for a free kick. No foul was called and I think he didn't get the call because he has the Stigma of the Diver, the mark of Cain on his forehead. He clearly does dive from time to time, but that doesn't make the ref's mistake any less ridiculous.

All in all: The amount of wrong calls and shocking ref displays in the Bundesliga is too damn high. It's a travesty that we don't have proper professional refs. It's a Billion euro Business and the outcome is often decided by de facto amateurs.
 
Piratesoup said:
Case in Point: The clear-as-day foul on Robben right on the edge of the penalty box when he tried to (guess what) cut in and the other Player just tripped him without being near the ball. Would've been a great position for a free kick. No foul was called and I think he didn't get the call because he has the Stigma of the Diver, the mark of Cain on his forehead. He clearly does dive from time to time, but that doesn't make the ref's mistake any less ridiculous.
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No one denies Robben dives a lot. Few see that (almost as) often, he avoids clear attempts to stop him illegally, sometimes chained by 2-3 oppontent players, often at the cost of losing ball control for a certain time or ending up in a worse position. To say he is always looking for the freekick/penalty is definitely just biased blabla. He's no saint but i dare you to find a pro who is.

I've heard BuLi referees admitting that they take a players "reputation" into account when deciding foul/no foul, yellow card/no yellow card. Shouldn't be like this, but then they are human. Interestingly, this is a field where there is no "Bayern Bias" or not very much. Just think about Robben, but also "yellow card magnets" like Rafinha or van Bommel. vB was a tough guy, but not the Thug he was made to be by some of the media. It's all about the story, which helps fill pages from monday to friday. I'm sure one could find similar examples at other clubs. In all my years watching football, i've seen very few real dirtbags on the field.
 
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Piratesoup said:
Case in Point: The clear-as-day foul on Robben right on the edge of the penalty box when he tried to (guess what) cut in and the other Player just tripped him without being near the ball. Would've been a great position for a free kick. No foul was called and I think he didn't get the call because he has the Stigma of the Diver, the mark of Cain on his forehead. He clearly does dive from time to time, but that doesn't make the ref's mistake any less ridiculous.

All in all: The amount of wrong calls and shocking ref displays in the Bundesliga is too damn high. It's a travesty that we don't have proper professional refs. It's a Billion euro Business and the outcome is often decided by de facto amateurs.
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Agree entirely.

2 leagues I watch & enjoy as much of as I can are, in order, are the Bundesliga & the EPL.

In the EPL the referees are professional and it probably shows, as when I watch Bundesliga football there just seems to be a lot more weird and/or crazy decisions made by the match officials. I also feel that Bundesliga referees are more happy to issue red cards (straight reds as well) for issues that wouldn't warrant a yellow in England.

Maybe there's a different culture I don't know.

There are match officials in Germany who are excellent btw.......

@do.ob

I admit entirely that Abraham should have been sent off v Hoffenheim. The match officials clearly didn't see it.
 
RW2 said:
In the EPL the referees are professional and it probably shows, as when I watch Bundesliga football there just seems to be a lot more weird and/or crazy decisions made by the match officials. I also feel that Bundesliga referees are more happy to issue red cards (straight reds as well) for issues that wouldn't warrant a yellow in England.
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From what I've seen this season, the referees in the PL are every bit as awful as the ones in Germany. They all should simply accept that the pace of the game has increased so much, that they need help. I hope it'll improve with the video referee next season, because the way it is now is unacceptable in the long run.
 
Stuttgart won the league in 2007 and got relegated in 2016. Wolfsburg won it in 2009 and run the risk of getting relegated 8 years later.
 
Leverkusen 2-0 Mainz now. And it should honestly be 3-0 by now. Mainz missed an easy chance earlier.
All of their players are overrated. Leno, Toprak, Bender, even Chicharito I guess.
 
Bayer 2-0 up against Hamburg thanks to Vidal and Lewandowski.
Leipzig 2-0 up.
Lewa again. Easy for Bayern today.
 
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Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87 said:
Bayer 2-0 up against Hamburg thanks to Vidal and Lewandowski.
Leipzig 2-0 up.
Lewa again. Easy for Bayern today.
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Müller hanging striker with Thiago on the 8 we only had 3 times this season. Mainz, Wolfsburg and today. 3:0 now.

HSV - it is barbecue time again...
 
I'm really starting to think that it is a better move for the development of a player to go to china than to play for the HSV.

No matter what coach they have, no matter what players they buy sponsored by Kühne, without fail they will stink up the place. But after winning the relegation match they will once again celebrate having somehow weaseled through and be proud of their dumb clock.

Considering the potential of the club and city it is such a shame that they can not seem to stop being a black hole that sucks out all the talent of every player they aquire.
 
I know the opponent is a bit shit and it's the annual "let's smash Hamburg in Munich" holiday, but ffs, we're so much more entertaining when we play the 4231 with Vidal + Thiago as the two CM compared to the insanely boring 433 version Ancelotti forces us to endure for most of the season. God, I hope, we get to see this line-up against one of the stronger teams.
 
RW2 said:
Agree entirely.

2 leagues I watch & enjoy as much of as I can are, in order, are the Bundesliga & the EPL.

In the EPL the referees are professional and it probably shows, as when I watch Bundesliga football there just seems to be a lot more weird and/or crazy decisions made by the match officials. I also feel that Bundesliga referees are more happy to issue red cards (straight reds as well) for issues that wouldn't warrant a yellow in England.

Maybe there's a different culture I don't know.

There are match officials in Germany who are excellent btw.......

@do.ob

I admit entirely that Abraham should have been sent off v Hoffenheim. The match officials clearly didn't see it.
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Sorry, but EPL referees are just as awful. As stated before, the game has become so fast mistakes are bound to happen.

As for your point with the red and yellow cards, maybe, but I'm glad it is like it is. I don't want that English "let's smack some bones"-style in Germany and it really is better for our chances in European football as well, as you see that English teams continiously have problems to adapt to the much "softer" continental refereeing style.
 
on that topic:
I've read recently that tests with "video assistant refs" were conducted with good results, how soon that's going to be implemented though.
 
fcbforever said:
5:0 Bayern. Business as usual.

FFS Hamburg I still remember when they were kind off our nightmare, we didn't win against them in the league in 4 years or something after 2006 :D
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I was at the Bayern - Hamburg match at Bayern's 110th anniversary in 2010 and i think that 1:0 was the first win against Hamburg in the AA.
 
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