Bundesliga 19/20
- Thread starter do.ob
- Start date
If Schalke had actual footballers in attack they might have sneaked in an equalizer by now and a pretty shocking yellow card for Raman.
A pretty standard one, for shouting at the ref.
I thought he got it for the "foul", but fair enough, you're probably right he complained heavily and could easily been carded for that.
That's how I saw it. The 'foul' was nothing to be fair.
Great!
Some truths were underlined this week:
The DFB is a bunch of ass****s and
The DFB Pokal is still the best tournament in modern football.
Still wondering if Flick can take that Bayern to a level above not by doing some tactics kung-fu and stuff but by just making the players feel comfortable. Strange.
So you really want to argue that ultras have done more good than harm? Come on.. Think about that one more time and now don't take for granted all the shit they're regularly doing just because we're used to by now. Pyros, fights, high security matches and so forth.
And yes, they provide some sort of value with their choreos and at times with their political statements, too. But first of all, they're a selective few. There are much more fans resonsible for the great atmosphere who are no ultras at all. Yes, the ultras are the ones organizing most of it but honestly, only in their very own worlds this justifies all the shit they're doimg on an almost weekly basis.
Honestly, I can't understand how any sane person can be on their side in this debate. There's a billionaire who created thousands of jobs, generated billions of tax incomes, spends parts of his fortune to charity on the one side and on the other side a bunch of people whose greatest contribution to society is that they are loud during football games. And somehow the absurd values of these people define the former as the ultimate evil because he keeps fecking Lautern, Stuttgart or Hamburg out of the league.
I mean, to each their own and while I can't understand why - in times of global warming, refugee crises, growing right wing populism, racism, brexit, Trump etc - the one topic that bothers you the most is the commercialisation of football, it's their good right to have that opinion. My issue is that they try to force others to be of the same opinion and have the same priorities and when the majority gives two shits about their opinion, they become crybabies and overreact. Ultras feel that they have the right to insult people, vandalize, bully other fans around and generally ruin the fun of millions of otger people just because they feel responsible for the atmosphere in stadiums. Honestly, I have absolutely zero sympathy for people who think it's just to antangonize people because they happen to be fans of another football club.
IMO, there are few bigger hypocrites than ultras.
I never said that ultras are saints, I think their obsession with pyro is childish and I wish they would have a less martial view on some of their rivalries - I think clubs and officials should work on changing that part of their culture. But for me there is no doubt that they are a net positive factor in Bundesliga and clubs do as well, otherwise they wouldn't do informal compromises with them on when/how often to use pyro and they would just kick them out instead of giving them all those privileges within the stadiums and on ticket sales.
What does Hopp's private money (directly) have to do with any of this? Does being rich put you above rules like 50+1 whose breach fans are upset about? Is there a certain net worth after which regular people aren't allowed to speak up against someone or something anymore? And who brought up clubs like Stuttgart in this? Aside from yourself?
I mean ultras were among the first people in German football to proclaim "refugees welcome" and they actually speak up against racism, where the DFB is still dragging its feet, so I don't really understand where you are going with that. Furthermore it's not like everything else is completely worthless to discuss just because there are ultimately bigger issues out there and just because people speak up about football related things in the realm of football doesn't mean that they ignore everything else in the rest of their lives.
As far as "ruining the fun of millions of other people" goes, last match day saw a nasty and disruptive escalation no doubt, but aside from that clubs are more than happy to parade their ultras around, so it really can't be that bad, can it?
I would appreciate if you could tell me what your connection to the ultra scenes in various clubs is. You may have spoken about it before on this forum but I am a rather new active member so you as a person are unknown to me. What I want to get at is: If you are in regular contact with ultra groups I can accept this as an informed opinion, if you mostly watch football on TV or in the seated bleachers I believe you mostly get your information from word of mouth or news reports.
I believe you are vastly mischaracterizing what is happening with ultra groups and their influence on the fanscene as a whole. Actually in my mind "ultra" is an overused and mostly negatively connoted term, I would prefer to talk about organized fans or something like that. Claiming that they are just there to cause trouble every week seems somewhat ill-informed to me but I will hold my judgement before you tell me about your point of view.
That is definitely one of the most truncated ways to describe the situation and I have heard a few. Hopp definitely is not the saintly figure you wish to paint here and him creating jobs or tax income wasn't done for any charitably reason but as a byproduct of him becoming extremely rich. And it doesn't really have anything to do with the issue at hand, neither do his donations to charity. And most of all, none of that makes his opinions or wishes or whatever more important than those of the fans who you once again characterize in a very unflattering way here, like they are some low-life thugs. Again, notwithstanding the way it is communicated (it did in the least prove quite effective in bringing the issues to light), I do agree with the criticism of Hopps involvement and the way the DFB handles the situation.
This - and I can not stress this enough - fecking pisses me off. This is the worst kind of whataboutism I have seen. How dare you accuse people of not caring about these super important issues in our times simply because they are speaking up about a more mundane problem as well. It is even more hypocritical (oh yes) when considering that a lot of ultra groups are actively promoting things like "refugees welcome" or speak out against racism and sexism (maybe not all but it isn't ever all as black and white as you like to paint it, is it?). Devaluing someones opinion on a topic because it may comparatively be less important than another is just lazy and does not exhibit a good conversation style. Sorry I am getting so worked up on this, so far you have seemed like a quite reasonable poster to me but this just really makes me angry.
I think I expressed myself unclearly in some parts. First of all, I don't think that Hopp's opinion should mean more than those of regular people. My point was that the ultras take a morale high ground for themselves and if anyone in this situation has a right to do so, it is definitely the one with Hopp's achievements and not those who illegaly burn pyros and publicly insult people - conscious of the situation that the anonymity of the masses prevents them from facing any consequences (which is another example of their double standards, by the way. Demonstrating against collective punishment but then using the DFB's reluctance to apply it to get away with everything).
And yes, I have a very negative image of ultras and yes, I know quite a few from Gladbach, Cologne and Leverkusen. I discussed pyro with people who burned them themselves on multiple occasions, I know a group of guys who wanted to found their very own ultra group, I know some Cologne ultras since they played in the same football team, I had quite an "unpleasant encounter" with ultras of the club I support myself and many other things like that. And on top of that, when things like the Hopp banners happen, I usually read their statements on the matters, so I say I know their motives, opinions etc. relatively well. I also talked to people who are afraid to speak up against them when in the block.
So I' wouldn't say I'm an expert on the matter but I've definitel experienced enough to feel comfortable discussing about it.
Thing is, I often hear how ultras are perceived so negatively in the public but at least up until now that's exactly the image I got myself. See, I like banter, I like rivalry and all that but every single ultra I talked to possessed an unhealthy level of identification with his group and usually antagonized opponent fans, the DFB etc. And if they were not open to violence, stuff like pyro, etc., they at least downplayed it. Even more so, they always see themselves in victim roles with little to no self reflection. It's always the DFB that treated them badly, or the club officials, or the opponent fans, or politicians and there's almost never even the slightest sign of admitting their own wrongdoings.
And honestly, don't you guys think you're downplaying the stuff ultras have commited in the recent past a little bit? The current reaction has built up over a considerable time by now. I think large parts of the German public are simply tired of their antics.
I mean, actually it's simply. You can have your very own opinion on Hopp and you can make sure people hear it. And if you want to boycott modern football, don't go to the stadium. But the moment you do stuff like that, you've lost your claim.
And yes, I have a very negative image of ultras and yes, I know quite a few from Gladbach, Cologne and Leverkusen. I discussed pyro with people who burned them themselves on multiple occasions, I know a group of guys who wanted to found their very own ultra group, I know some Cologne ultras since they played in the same football team, I had quite an "unpleasant encounter" with ultras of the club I support myself and many other things like that. And on top of that, when things like the Hopp banners happen, I usually read their statements on the matters, so I say I know their motives, opinions etc. relatively well. I also talked to people who are afraid to speak up against them when in the block.
So I' wouldn't say I'm an expert on the matter but I've definitel experienced enough to feel comfortable discussing about it.
Thing is, I often hear how ultras are perceived so negatively in the public but at least up until now that's exactly the image I got myself. See, I like banter, I like rivalry and all that but every single ultra I talked to possessed an unhealthy level of identification with his group and usually antagonized opponent fans, the DFB etc. And if they were not open to violence, stuff like pyro, etc., they at least downplayed it. Even more so, they always see themselves in victim roles with little to no self reflection. It's always the DFB that treated them badly, or the club officials, or the opponent fans, or politicians and there's almost never even the slightest sign of admitting their own wrongdoings.
And honestly, don't you guys think you're downplaying the stuff ultras have commited in the recent past a little bit? The current reaction has built up over a considerable time by now. I think large parts of the German public are simply tired of their antics.
I mean, actually it's simply. You can have your very own opinion on Hopp and you can make sure people hear it. And if you want to boycott modern football, don't go to the stadium. But the moment you do stuff like that, you've lost your claim.
Some updates regarding "#Hurensohn".
DFB have released an FAQ on their homepage regarding the conflict:
-they admit being too sensible in some cases (namely Berlin and Duisburg), "naturally DFB has to stomach/accept harshly worded criticism"
-a "clear no" towards a (more) common use of collective punishment, which will remain the last resort of their independent DFB court
-going forward: a meeting with "AG Fankulturen", a board of fan representatives "to have a constructive dialogue with fan organizations", to discuss together "what forms - including excessive - of criticism are passable and where red lines lie"
Future actions will speak louder than words of course, but at least it looks that both sides have the intention to de-escalate. Fans still used provocative banners during the last two days (DFB Cup matches), but to my knowledge they refrained from using the "Hasta La Vista"/Crosshairs banner or using the word "Hurensohn", though Frankfurt's fans were kind of teasing that concept, since they displayed a Dietmar Hopp you son of a mother banner, where they took their time revealing what the last word would be.
DFB have released an FAQ on their homepage regarding the conflict:
-they admit being too sensible in some cases (namely Berlin and Duisburg), "naturally DFB has to stomach/accept harshly worded criticism"
-a "clear no" towards a (more) common use of collective punishment, which will remain the last resort of their independent DFB court
-going forward: a meeting with "AG Fankulturen", a board of fan representatives "to have a constructive dialogue with fan organizations", to discuss together "what forms - including excessive - of criticism are passable and where red lines lie"
Future actions will speak louder than words of course, but at least it looks that both sides have the intention to de-escalate. Fans still used provocative banners during the last two days (DFB Cup matches), but to my knowledge they refrained from using the "Hasta La Vista"/Crosshairs banner or using the word "Hurensohn", though Frankfurt's fans were kind of teasing that concept, since they displayed a Dietmar Hopp you son of a mother banner, where they took their time revealing what the last word would be.
Last edited:
Next round at Schalke. "We apologize to all whores for having associated them with Hopp"
Top banner (from the club): #standup against discrimmination
bottom banner (from fans): a quotation of Tönnies' racist remarks
On the sporting side with 5 minutes to go: poor Bremen went up 2:0 early in Berlin, but (like Düsseldorf last week) allowed the big city club to stage a comeback, Leipzig are still level in Wolfsburg.
Last edited:
I think DW is doing pretty fair write ups of these matters:
https://www.dw.com/en/why-do-so-many-fans-hate-dietmar-hopp/a-52608910
https://www.dw.com/en/fan-protests-against-dietmar-hopp-a-story-of-broken-trust/a-52634908
tl;dr
Hopp is a target, because he bought Hoffenheim from obscurity into Bundesliga, but by now this has developed into a bigger conflict between organized fans and the German FA and other people in power, where targeting Hopp is mainly a vehicle for protest.
e.g. a banner aimed at Rummenigge for stuff he said about Bayern's fans, by Hertha fans:
Hazard gives Dortmund the lead against his former club.
Zirkzee starts again vs Augsburg. Seems Flick favors keeping his preferred system over playing more experienced players out of position.
I like Bayern's throwback kit. A lot of clubs in the Bundesliga have had one this year for one reason or another.
Does anyone know why the PL doesn't allow that?
Does anyone know why the PL doesn't allow that?
Augsburg giving us a hard time. I don't think we had an attempt on target yet.
vintage bayern goal. Boateng with a great chip/longball behind the defense and Müller finishing with his first touch.
Has beens, both of them
Phew. Augsburg denied by offside in the dying moments of the game, then Gnabry and Goretzka made it 2-0 to us in injury time.
What is the opinion of the Bundesliga followers (Leverkusen fans) on here on Roger Schmidt. He just signed for PSV.
I think he did alright in Leverkusen. His approach is very centered around pressing, which leads to chaotic games and an inability to dominate and control games via possession. In all three of his Bundesliga seasons he had little over 50% possession on average, despite finishing top 4 in two of them. He didn't come off as particularly likeable to me, but to his credit he gave Leverkusen some much needed cojones, taking 4 points from Bayern during their Guardiola years and 7 points from Klopp and Tuchel at Dortmund, along some other stuff like taking Atletico to penalties. Which was a good improvement from a team mostly laughed at for being mentally weak bottlers/push overs, as with him they never went down without a fight. I think he still has a pretty good reputation in Germany, but because he couldn't really dominate teams he probably won't be on top of Bayern's, Dortmund's or perhaps Leipzig's short list.
Last edited:
Thanks for your detailed response. We're in desperate need for someone who'll teach our players how to press so that sounds good. Would love to win top matches again too actually
. Won't derail the thread any further. Thanks again!@do.ob summarized it pretty good
Pros:
Likes to playing attacking football, his teams play great pressing and "gegenpressing" (did this term already make its way out of germany?
), his teams always play with great intensityCons:
Due to his style his teams are often exposed in defense, especially when the pressing doesn't work the opponent will get much space. He also seemed a bit stubborn to adjust his style when the defense became a problem. And as already said, he isn't exactly the most likable guy
I think he is a very good fit for your team and the whole league. His approach wouldn't work very well in Italy for example I think.
@do.ob summarized it pretty good
Pros:
Likes to playing attacking football, his teams play great pressing and "gegenpressing" (did this term already make its way out of germany?
Cons:
Due to his style his teams are often exposed in defense, especially when the pressing doesn't work the opponent will get much space. He also seemed a bit stubborn to adjust his style when the defense became a problem. And as already said, he isn't exactly the most likable guy
I think he is a very good fit for your team and the whole league. His approach wouldn't work very well in Italy for example I think.
Think you're right about being a good fit for the eredivisie judging by the assesement of you and do.ob. In Europe it might be different. If we get there...
The guys at StatsBomb like him (and have worked with him in the past apparently) and think this could be a very good appointment. They talk about it briefly in their latest podcast.
@do.ob summarized it pretty good
Pros:
Likes to playing attacking football, his teams play great pressing and "gegenpressing" (did this term already make its way out of germany?
Cons:
Due to his style his teams are often exposed in defense, especially when the pressing doesn't work the opponent will get much space. He also seemed a bit stubborn to adjust his style when the defense became a problem. And as already said, he isn't exactly the most likable guy
I think he is a very good fit for your team and the whole league. His approach wouldn't work very well in Italy for example I think.
Leverkusen have had some really interesting coaches down the years. Remember years back Robin Dutt being all the rage for a month or two (Nagalsmann before Nagalsmann became a thing) but he then got sacked and seems just to be a technical director now.
Boaz isn't doing too bad this season. If season had run normally I'd have had Leverkusen as dark horses to win the europa.
From the perspective of a Leverkusen fan:
When he was with us, Schmidt was the coach with the most extreme interpretation of pressing. He was absolutely relentless and obsessed with the statistic that the absolute majority of goals happen few seconds after a win of possession. At times, he even imstructed our players to lose the ball on purpose in certaim areas so that we could start to press opponent's there.
IMO, his style is very, very competitive. We were able to give almost every time out there a run for their money under Schmidt. However, as some already pointed out, the system was very vulnerable if players were halfhearted. When a single one wasn't working his ass off, we were exposed. In the beginning that wasn't a problem and we were running 120+ km every game. But the longer Schmidt was here, the more apparent it became that this style wasn't something for the dull day-to-day league business. Our players weren'tbfresh and motivated enough and especially against lesser teams, they began to question Schmidt's decisions, wanted to have more control etc.
Schmidt then established possession-oriented elements but suddenly abandoned them again completely when we stumbled into a result crisis. He became incredible stubborn with his style, fell out with players and refused to adapt, sort of like a modern version of Mourinho. He had lost the players and was sacked eventually.
However, he apparently changed his ways in China. I've heard that his style came to it's limits due to the extreme heat. Seems like he even switched to possession football primarily because of that. So it's completely possible that he's a different coach now.
Anyway, I'm happy he's back in Europe again and looking forward to watching his teams. Tactically, he was revolutionary when he was with us and if he finally began to think outside of his box, this could be very exciting. Additionally, I rwally liked him as a character. Says what goes through his head and doesn't care about the popular opinion.
So the last of the big leagues reacted as expected.
By the way: The German company CureVac is currently developing a vaccine against Corona and apparently their research is going very well: Accordingbto media reports, Trump offered the company a fortune to ensure that the drug is delivered exclusively to the US. America first and stuff. The CureVacs main owner - a certain Dietmar Hopp - basically told him to feck off. What a Hurensohn.
The protests against Hopp were always aimed at his influence on football. Not against his other dealings.
But that being said, there is an interview about his biotech investments from little over a year ago:
"We will triple our investment"
There is also a part about curevac, where he talks about how to make the most money out of it.
https://www.handelsblatt.com/untern...ml?ticket=ST-1108721-pDmRGc5sptj5yYsgzQvy-ap3
It's his right to turn vaccines into a business of course and I won't blame him for it, it's how our system works after all. But I would wait for the bottom line, before proclaiming him a saint just because he turned down the first offer.
Yeah, some deluded ultras vengefully screaming 'Hopp du Hurensohn' from the top of their lungs is obviously nothing personal, it's just metaphorical for 'Hello Dietmar, you're a decent human being and while you may not have thought about it, your financial backing of a rather unknown club collides with our vision for football in a commercialised world. Please understand that we want to protect the innocent and rural character of the sport in a society that is otherwise completely performance driven as an oasis of comradeship and equality. And although we don't want to explicitly pick you out, your involvement in Hoffenheim has made you a representative of a development that threatens what we love about football.' Silly me that I didn' t understamd this was nothing personal. We politically correct people are so sensitive.
And by the way, it doesn't matter why he backed this company. There' s no such thing as selflessness in the world, every human being acts out of egotistical motives. Has he done it purely for others? No. But he has done it and as a consequence of that decision thousands of people may get help.
Well unfortunately that's the culture and language within the stadiums. People don't chant "Timo Werner, please don't dive, it's unfair and ruining sportsmanship" either, they sing "Timo Werner ist ein Hurensohn". And obviously this has turned personal against Hopp, but the scope is still football related, it has never been about Hopp's "civil" life and dealings.
I'm not even sure which point you're trying to make anymore. Hopp funded a medical research company with the intent of turning a profit. He now turned down one offer from the US to buy his company. But what is his actual plan going forward? Will he say "I'm already a multi billionaire, I want to help people and make my vaccine as accessible as possible"? Or will it be "Why sell to the US for only a billion, so they can sell it to the rest of the world exclusively, when I can cut out the middle man and sell to everyone directly?" (somewhat similar to him describing why he wasn't interested in selling to big pharma).
Am I glad Trump's plan was foiled (for now) - sure, but I have no idea whether that was, because Hopp is a "good" person or whether it just coincidentally happened that his own self interest aligned with the rest of the world's in this case. So instead of falling over myself to claim "how could these fans ever criticize what Hopp's doing in football when he would turn down Trump's approach for yet unknown reasons years after the protest against him got going???" I'm going to wait and see what he will actually do with his vaccine, before I form a conclusion.
Hopp has done a load of good stuff but it is IMHO completely fair to criticise his dealings with Hoffenheim and how he is hand the “ultra“ situation.
plus it is always correct to tell Trump to feck off
plus it is always correct to tell Trump to feck off
Watzke demands season to continue
So, Watzke, the executive director of Borussia Dortmund, demands the season to continue rather sooner than later. Otherwise, the financial damages could be so significant, that clubs could go bankrupt. He's talking about an "economic necessity".
What do you guys make of this talk? A senile capitalist blabbering his irrational opinions in a completely inadaquate time? Or is he simply someone that has the interests of football and his club in hjis mind and therefor doing his job properly to save the league?
I personally think that although there could be some truth to what he says regarding the possible outcome of this crisis on the Bundesliga and the clubs themselves, his demand is of very ill timing. While the whole european population struggle to cope with the current situation, and some parts are basically collapsing ander the new virus, football interests seem very negligible. Obviously there are lots of people depending on a functiong football league, since lots of people are employed by clubs, the media, etc. etc...But still, health in this specific case should always be valued more important, than economic aspects. This idea might change in the long run, when the economic side effects affect the population so negatively, that these cause more damage, than the virus itself. Yet, there should still be time for that to come and to deal with, while the threat of health is absolute imminent and urges a much faster response, than the following economic crisis. Besides, it's very likely that the economic damage that virus causes will be much more severe, the more we wait to deal with it, at least in the long term.
Putting the players and therefor the social environment at risk, sending the wrong signal, giving people a reason to gather in pubs/stadiums etc. just is enough reason to not let the season continue anytime soon. Players will become infected, will infect more players and other people surrounding them, which leads to the very well known exponential growth of infections. Hopefully, the situation will be better come June or July, but there's certainly no guarantee for that. Might as well declare this season null and void so we can at least try (!) to plan for the next one.
So, Watzke, the executive director of Borussia Dortmund, demands the season to continue rather sooner than later. Otherwise, the financial damages could be so significant, that clubs could go bankrupt. He's talking about an "economic necessity".
What do you guys make of this talk? A senile capitalist blabbering his irrational opinions in a completely inadaquate time? Or is he simply someone that has the interests of football and his club in hjis mind and therefor doing his job properly to save the league?
I personally think that although there could be some truth to what he says regarding the possible outcome of this crisis on the Bundesliga and the clubs themselves, his demand is of very ill timing. While the whole european population struggle to cope with the current situation, and some parts are basically collapsing ander the new virus, football interests seem very negligible. Obviously there are lots of people depending on a functiong football league, since lots of people are employed by clubs, the media, etc. etc...But still, health in this specific case should always be valued more important, than economic aspects. This idea might change in the long run, when the economic side effects affect the population so negatively, that these cause more damage, than the virus itself. Yet, there should still be time for that to come and to deal with, while the threat of health is absolute imminent and urges a much faster response, than the following economic crisis. Besides, it's very likely that the economic damage that virus causes will be much more severe, the more we wait to deal with it, at least in the long term.
Putting the players and therefor the social environment at risk, sending the wrong signal, giving people a reason to gather in pubs/stadiums etc. just is enough reason to not let the season continue anytime soon. Players will become infected, will infect more players and other people surrounding them, which leads to the very well known exponential growth of infections. Hopefully, the situation will be better come June or July, but there's certainly no guarantee for that. Might as well declare this season null and void so we can at least try (!) to plan for the next one.