It was by accident for sure but Walt shaking Jesse pushed Jane onto her back, she died as a direct result of his actions. Of course being a smack head didn't help her chances much either...
Television Breaking Bad
- Thread starter Burndogg
- Start date
It's not the same thing. She was the only one responsible for her death. If Walt wasn't there, she would have still died. I'm not saying it wasn't wrong to let her die, but she extorted him from his money, wanted to go leave the "dream" with Jesse which surely would have resulted in both her and Jesse's death and all in all, she was a threat to Walt's family. What would have happened when her money ran out?
The point I'm trying to make is that Walt wasn't responsible for her death and Jesse shouldn't blame him. Poisoning Brock was also awful, but Walt was backed into a corner where it was him and his family or Gus and Jesse had to choose. Unfortunately, Jesse, being the ungrafetul cnut that he is, decided not to help him unless he himself was hurt in some way (poisoning Brock).
Jesse was a bigger scum than Walt. I'm just sorry that Walt didn't kill him when he killed the nazis
She wouldn't though, Walk knocked her onto her back.
Yes, I just saw the clip. Well, then Walt was at fault most definetly, but I doubt she would have survived either way.
Walt had plenty of opportunities to walk away from it all as well, his ego just wouldn't let him.
Damn this show was good. Seeing the intense debate makes me want to watch it again. Such great complex and interesting characters.
You could have said the same thing about Jesse though, who had a similar amount of heroine in his system. Had she been on her side for the entire night she probably would have been fine. I'm no expert though, so could be wrong.
Well, I don't agree. Of course he was responsible for her death. Even if it had've been that she would have died if he wasn't there, he was there. He chose to let her die, and that's the same as killing her for me.
Seriously? The list of dastardly things Walt did makes Jesse look like a saint. Walt's problems with Gus were of his own doing, not Jesse's. You're actually justifying the poisoning?!? fecking hell.
And btw the money was all Jesse's not Walt's. If he wanted to blow it all up on weed then that's entirely up to him.
I was with Walt all the way up until the Brock poisoning. That was when I felt his actions could no longer be justified. After that he became a monster and the true villain of the show. It's funny how different people view it.
But I must say I'm amazed that anyone would view Jesse as the more depraved of the two.
But I must say I'm amazed that anyone would view Jesse as the more depraved of the two.
Last edited:
That is just not true.
It was Jesse's fault actually. Walt crossed Gus for Jesse.
He killed those 2 drug dealers that killed Combo for Jesse. The only reason Walt got involved with that mess was because he didn't want Jesse to die.
Walt was no saint but I can justify most of what he did for either his family's and Jesse's preservation/safety.
Yeah, because for some reason Jesse was against using and killing kids in the drug trade. Imagine that! All the trouble Jesse got up to was because of Walt's greediness. Jesse wanted to have nothing to do with Tuco or Gus iirc but Walt manipulated him into it.
Walt was a massive cnut. This "did it for his family or jesse" is bs of the highest order that walt used as justification. He did it for himself because he liked it.
Jesse wanted revenge for Combo initially, and didn't care about the kid until he realised it was that girls brother. He was ready to kill them 2 for killing Combo and Walt spoke to Gus to stop him from causing them both a lot of hassle.
And Tuco was ready to kill Jesse as he was contributing nothing. Who stopped him? Mike was ready to kill Jesse? Who stopped him? As was Gus. As were the 2 dealers. As were Crazy 8 and his cousin. Walt stuck his neck out on the line again and again. Yes, he was manipulative and I'm not trying to paint him as the Dalai Lama here but to absolve Jesse of everything and say Walt corrupted/manipulated him is just bullshit.
I mean Jesse was already Cap'n Cook long before Walt became Heisenberg.
I was firmly on team Walt for the whole ride.
Well, yeah, but that's because Walt decided to save Jesse from Gus' thugs, right?
Jesse was an ungrateful cnut in that case to be fair, and Walt had to manipulate him.
Neither of them were nice people really but I'm shocked that anyone can think Jesse was the scummier of the two.
Jesse wanted nothing to do with Tuco though so he would likely never have gotten messed up in that if not for Walt. Jesse got into trouble time and again because he has some sort of moral compass that Walt had pretty much lost altogether. I'm not absolving Jesse of anything at all but to say Jesse was more of a scum is just complete lunacy. So is saying that Walt did everything for his family. Walt dispels that notion himself in the final episode. This is a man who almost raped his wife for fecks sake.
Jesse comes out looking a lot better.
Jesse and Walt are not black and white characters, they are flawed, anti heroes.
The great strength of this show is Walt's gradual descent into darkness.
The great strength of this show is Walt's gradual descent into darkness.
He almost raped his wife? What? When was that??
And some people say that he said that to Skyler at the end to give her closure, keeping in line everything he did in the last couple of episodes was selfless. Personally, I'm undecided on whether we should take what he said to her in that room at face value.
Jesse got into trouble time and time again because he had a moral compass. Where was that compass before he joined up with Walt?
I never said Jesse was more of a scum bag, that was another poster. But I do believe that Jesse was ungrateful. Walt is a typical Machiavellian character, where the ends justify the means. And, the fact that Jesse was still alive at the end, show that Walt's actions to ensure Jesse's survival were justified. It was Jesse who let Crazy 8 walk up and leave zombified in the first couple of episodes. It was always Jesse screwing up and Walt having to bail him out by burning more bridges.
Jesse was the one who invited Walt to be partners again after Walt left the first time. Then they both agreed that they should look for a high-end distributor and Skinny Pete told them about Tuco. Jesse offered the product, got beat up and then Walt took matter into his own hands. Walt never made Jesse do anything, it was his own choice to get into the drug business.
Jesse, after getting beaten by Hank, decides to cook meth again so Walt decides to invite Jesse in with Gus (keep in mind that Jesse is incompetent to run his own business and probably would have been killed after one month of cooking and distributing alone). So by inviting him to work for Gus, Walt actually saved his life again. Then Jesse does his usual stupid things and makes an extremely comfortable relationship between Gus and Walt into a hellish one.
Jesse then fecks up everything after Gus's death by drawing more and more attention to not only himself, but to Walt and his family. Walt decides to give him the 5 million to start someplace a new. Jesse, as always, after learning about the poisoning, starts to feck with Walt again with leads to Walt losing his money, the death of Hank and Gomes and his own capture by the Nazis. After that, he foolishly decides to experiment and not work for the Nazis with results in the death of his "girlfriend" even through he was warned multiple times not to try any funny ideas.
Then Walt comes to rescue him and after everything Jesse did to him, he forgave him and let him go even through he could have easily let him die.
Have I missed something?
I'm not trying to portray Walt as a saint, but every single problem that Walt had to deal with was because of Jesse and his shenanigans. The difference is that Jesse was always ungrateful to him and never once decided to help him just because Walt was his friend, but only when he was directly hurt.
The moral compasses in this thread. 
First season or might have the 2nd. Not sure.
I take it at face value because it was obvious he was doing it for himself. No doubt it started with him wanting to make money but by the end he was doing it because he liked it. He had more than enough money by that time.
I didn't say he had a moral compass. Just he had more of one than Walt did which again is very apparent.
Apologies. Got you confused with another poster. You say the end justifies the means but his end was his own gains and his own satisfaction. It had nothing to do with his family, Jesse or anyone else. Just him. He had become a egoistical maniac towards the end.
Jesse had no reason to be grateful to Walt.
Jesse was an addict, selfish, immature, a massive liability at times. But as the show continued he showed that he actually had some morals. The horrible things that he had done seemed to affect him, he showed remorse.
Walt started off with good intentions, but his ego meant that he could never walk away from it. I wouldn't say he was ever evil, as a lot of the time when he did something fecked up, there was a reason behind it, often trying to help out Jesse or his family. Ends justify the means etc. But it was never really black and white.
That's what I seem to remember. I haven't watched it since the finale mind. Basically there isn't a good and evil (apart from those fecking nazis) or heroes...although I guess Hank was the series hero?
Walt started off with good intentions, but his ego meant that he could never walk away from it. I wouldn't say he was ever evil, as a lot of the time when he did something fecked up, there was a reason behind it, often trying to help out Jesse or his family. Ends justify the means etc. But it was never really black and white.
That's what I seem to remember. I haven't watched it since the finale mind. Basically there isn't a good and evil (apart from those fecking nazis) or heroes...although I guess Hank was the series hero?
The only problem with Jesse, is that he was a terrible criminal. His antics were the main reason for the business going to shit.
We're all agreed though that Skyler is a cnut right?!
I hated Skyler, Marie and Walt Jr. The rest of the characters were cast perfectly
Vince Gilligan has said numerous times that his intention was for Walt to start off as the good guy and end up being an ego-maniacal bad guy (he initially planned for Walt to actually, physically push Jane on her back, but thought that might be too on the nose), but for me that was never fully achieved. I was still rooting for him at the end for many of the reasons mentioned already in this thread.
I still feel that the most effective charge against Walt in the 'good v bad' debate is that he didn't have to cook meth. He didn't have to pursue that path in the first place, he didn't need to expand and he had a number of opportunities to walk away, especially after killing Gus. That's when he should have ended it. But apart from that, there are too many reasons for his other 'bad' actions for me to turn against him.
Jane's death: She backed him into a corner, threatened him, and was deemed to be a bad influence on Jesse (obvs he was the reason she returned to heroin) so he chose to let nature take it's course after his initial accidental intervention.
Brock's poisoning: Again, he had been backed into a corner. The only way he could get close to Gus was with Jesse on side, but he needed a major nudge for that to happen. This was a life or death situation for Walt (more specifically Hank), so his desperation is understandable.
Killing Mike: Mike was on the run, which furthered Walt's concern that his guys in prison would eventually crack. The only way for him to get away with silencing that threat was by nullifying the Mike factor. Sure, he killed a guy and arranged for a bunch of prisoners to be massacred, but his reasoning was (kinda) understandable. Those prisoners were a threat to his freedom and he felt he needed to handle it.
I'm also one of the people who was never truly on Jesse's side.
I still feel that the most effective charge against Walt in the 'good v bad' debate is that he didn't have to cook meth. He didn't have to pursue that path in the first place, he didn't need to expand and he had a number of opportunities to walk away, especially after killing Gus. That's when he should have ended it. But apart from that, there are too many reasons for his other 'bad' actions for me to turn against him.
Jane's death: She backed him into a corner, threatened him, and was deemed to be a bad influence on Jesse (obvs he was the reason she returned to heroin) so he chose to let nature take it's course after his initial accidental intervention.
Brock's poisoning: Again, he had been backed into a corner. The only way he could get close to Gus was with Jesse on side, but he needed a major nudge for that to happen. This was a life or death situation for Walt (more specifically Hank), so his desperation is understandable.
Killing Mike: Mike was on the run, which furthered Walt's concern that his guys in prison would eventually crack. The only way for him to get away with silencing that threat was by nullifying the Mike factor. Sure, he killed a guy and arranged for a bunch of prisoners to be massacred, but his reasoning was (kinda) understandable. Those prisoners were a threat to his freedom and he felt he needed to handle it.
I'm also one of the people who was never truly on Jesse's side.
- He was already a meth cook and addict, so he wasn't corrupted by Walt.
- He was the one who brought Hank to the junkyard, instigating the whole fight between Jesse and Hank.
- It was his addiction to heroin that nearly cost Walt the deal with Gus (also made him miss the birth of his daughter)
- He was the one who jeopardised the arrangement with Gus by being ungrateful about the money being made
- It was his life Walt saved by killing Gus' men
This is the important issue. The only mistake Gilligan made throughout the series was not putting a bullet through her head. With that said, Anna Gunn was great.
I was Team Walt until the end. He created a drug empire, battled cancer and put up with the world's biggest pain in the arse of a wife for many years. Kudos.
I was patient with Walt through the whole show but once he killed Mike he was bad guy for me.
This pretty much.
Why all the Skyler hate? She wasn't my favourite character but I don't remember really disliking her that much.
Yeah, but how ethical was her gaming journalism?
The dumber section of tv watchers often hate wives that get in the way of anti-heros. Skylar, Carmela Soprano Betty Draper, Margaret Schroeder, etc
Betty is supposed to be dislikable to be fair.
I assumed that would be why. But she was simply a realistic portrayal. I could understand disliking her for smoking when pregnant though.
'36 Times Breaking Bad Was the Cleverest Show on Television' - http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/l...-and-despair?bftw&utm_term=4ldqpfp#.mloLy9VOx
Probably been seen by a few people but found it really interesting and cool.
Probably been seen by a few people but found it really interesting and cool.
What in the world does this have to do with intelligence? How can you be surprised to be viewed as arrogant by some posters when you post shit like this?
Who said I was surprised? How they view me is their problem. I stand by what I said. People who bitch about every female tv character that dares go against their awful husbands are idiots.