Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

[MUnchies]

That was an option but if Roy wasn't there to say what he just said on live TV to millions. Then they'd only have replaced him with another wet wipe like Joe Cole or Jermaine Jenas who'd say nothing controversial nor interesting.

So he couldn't have said his mind in UK? Hehad to go all the way to Qatar for that? Keep making excuses, you are all fecking hypocrites.

It's an interesting question. He's basically doing what Gary Neville said he'd do, ie, criticism from inside. He just made his point to a huge audience which is arguably a positive. Boycotting is to punish, silencing himself or removing his audience would only punish himself, and Keane has famously done that to himself before.

No. Boycotting is not going to said country you don't like and are against their rules. He could have stayed in UK and spoke his mind like millions are doing.

 

[moses]

So he couldn't have said his mind in UK? Hehad to go all the way to Qatar for that? Keep making excuses, you are all fecking hypocrites.

That poster gave his opinion, politely and you insulted them. Will you ease up on the baseless accusations of hypocrisy?

 

[moses]

No. Boycotting is not going to said country you don't like and are against their rules. He could have stayed in UK and spoke his mind like millions are doing.

He didnt say anything about a boycott. He could have done either but he chose to go and speak out about the aspects he didn't like. No big deal.

 

[MUnchies]

That poster gave his opinion, politely and you insulted them. Will you ease up on the baseless accusations of hypocrisy?

Insulted them how? What did I say that was insulting. Please explain? calling him a hypocrite? Wow that's an insult now
Our players have been called cnuts, stupid, dumb, brainless, useless etc and it's all allowed on here but calling a poster hypocrite is an insult . Funny HYPOCRITES!

 

[shamans]

Are in agreement the 6500 deaths figure was a lie?

It now has me suspicious about anything regarding Qatar. Definitely more grey area here

 

[stevoc]

So he couldn't have said his mind in UK? He had to go all the way to Qatar for that?

I suppose he could have but he chose to do it in Qatar on national TV which might have a bit more impact. If he stayed in the UK I'm not sure what platform he would have been using to convey the same message.

Keep making excuses, you are all fecking hypocrites.

This word is bandied about so much in these threads that I'm genuinely starting to wonder if some people don't actually understand what it means.

 

[moses]

Insulted them how? What did I say that was insulting. Please explain? calling him a hypocrite? Wow that's an insult now
Our players have been called cnuts, stupid, dumb, brainless, useless etc and it's all allowed on here but calling a poster hypocrite is an insult . Funny HYPOCRITES!

This has nothing to do with people insulting players.

Argue with the post, don't attack the poster. It was just an opinion and I fail to see how he was being a 'fecking hypocrite'.

It's been used to death and its tricky when shouted into the ether, you made the mistake of directing it at somebody who was engaging in good faith and politely.

 

[stevoc]

Are in agreement the 6500 deaths figure was a lie?

It now has me suspicious about anything regarding Qatar. Definitely more grey area here

Does the actual number really matter though?

I think we can all agree anything above 0 is not ok if they died from working in the unsafe conditions over there. It might well not be 6500 it's difficult for anyone to find out (the Qatar government probably don't even know for sure) but it's almost certainly way more than the 3 or whatever ridiculously low number Qatar claim in the official statistics.

 

[calodo2003]

Are in agreement the 6500 deaths figure was a lie?

It now has me suspicious about anything regarding Qatar. Definitely more grey area here

Suspicious about what exactly?

 

[2mufc0]

Are in agreement the 6500 deaths figure was a lie?

It now has me suspicious about anything regarding Qatar. Definitely more grey area here

This is a more balanced article rather than the sensationalist guardian article which often gets cited

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-many-people-have-died-for-the-qatar-world-cup/a-63763713

Not to say Qatar doesn't have its issue with migrant workers but a lot of the figures thrown around are false.

 

[moses]

Are in agreement the 6500 deaths figure was a lie?

It now has me suspicious about anything regarding Qatar. Definitely more grey area here

That was from the Guardian and it definitely erred on the side of sensationalism. There are many discussions about the numbers and numbers always vary, so I rarely take them as anything other than indicators there is an issue. Does it matter if it was half that or even a tenth. It highlighted the lack of rights the workers receive.

 

[shamans]

Does the actual number really matter though?

I think we can all agree anything above 0 is not ok if they died from working in the unsafe conditions over there. It might well not be 6500 it's difficult for anyone to find out (the Qatar government probably don't even know for sure) but it's almost certainly way more than the 3 or whatever ridiculously low number Qatar claim in the official statistics.

It matters. It may sound inhumane but if 3 workers died in a span of ten years that very different than hundred or thousands dying which would indicate a systemic problem.

I also don't like saying "it's probably high" based on what? Just because you feel it is?

I don't wanna waste my time defending corrupt bastards in Qatar. They need no defending and should be shamed but I don't wanna get sucked into some of the exaggerated claims of migrant worker deaths and slavery (which, is quite annoying to see the word just thrown around like that )

There are plenty of other issues in/with Qatar. I don't see why we have to make up stuff that isn't.

 

[shamans]

That was from the Guardian and it definitely erred on the side of sensationalism. There are many discussions about the numbers and numbers always vary, so I rarely take them as anything other than indicators there is an issue. Does it matter if it was half that or even a tenth. It highlighted the lack of rights the workers receive.

The extent of the issue matters though. As someone who has lived in the middle east I want to know where these the usual tough conditions for workers that you see all over third world countries and developing economies?

Countries like India Pakistan Bangladesh have a lot of poverty. They go to middle east to work and they work inhumane shifts to feed their families.

Qatar saying "yeah we don't care if you work or not. But if you do here's money and don't ask us about anything else"

Is very different than "yeah we agreed to pay you 10 dollars but we're gonna make you work for a week instead because we feel like it "

Wrong is wrong but there's a big difference between inhumane conditions and slave labor.

Edit: I also want to add the figure is of total deaths in the last ten years. No linking to building of stadiums.

I want to see what the total deaths for the ten years before were proportionality but I can't find those figures.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It matters. It may sound inhumane but if 3 workers died in a span of ten years that very different than hundred or thousands dying which would indicate a systemic problem.

I also don't like saying "it's probably high" based on what? Just because you feel it is?

I don't wanna waste my time defending corrupt bastards in Qatar. They need no defending and should be shamed but I don't wanna get sucked into some of the exaggerated claims of migrant worker deaths and slavery (which, is quite annoying to see the word just thrown around like that )

There are plenty of other issues in/with Qatar. I don't see why we have to make up stuff that isn't.

The point is you can’t specifically say anyone (bar the three official deaths) died specifically working on WC infrastructure. From what is reported, the total number of migrant deaths Qatar officially has had in the space of time between the WC award and 2020 is actually over 15k but, again, no one can specially say who was working on a World Cup site.

FYI the 6500 number is only from a group of countries, it misses out other large migrant countries. I’m not sure why that was ever the main headline number.

Personally I don’t see how it matters if they were working on a WC specific project or not but it means you can’t write something like ‘6500 died working on World Cup construction’ and claim it to be 100% accurate.

 

[moses]

The extent of the issue matters though. As someone who has lived in the middle east I want to know where these the usual tough conditions for workers that you see all over third world countries and developing economies?

Countries like India Pakistan Bangladesh have a lot of poverty. They go to middle east to work and they work inhumane shifts to feed their families.

Qatar saying "yeah we don't care if you work or not. But if you do here's money and don't ask us about anything else"

Is very different than "yeah we agreed to pay you 10 dollars but we're gonna make you work for a week instead because we feel like it "

Wrong is wrong but there's a big difference between inhumane conditions and slave labor.

Edit: I also want to add the figure is of total deaths in the last ten years. No linking to building of stadiums.

I want to see what the total deaths for the ten years before were proportionality but I can't find those figures.

Yeah, I agree. I'm sorry if my poor seemed dismissive, it wasn't meant to. The lack of stats is worrying to me too. There has been lots of reporting on the difficulty in getting accurate numbers, which is always worrying.

 

[shamans]

Yeah, I agree. I'm sorry if my poor seemed dismissive, it wasn't meant to. The lack of stats is worrying to me too. There has been lots of reporting on the difficulty in getting accurate numbers, which is always worrying.

No worries didn't seem dismissive to me. As I said earlier theres plenty wrong with this world cup and Qatar as is than for us to rely on weaker stars

 

[united for life]

I thought Qatar would take this opportunity to advertise their country to the world, isn't that what sportswashing is all about? Instead, from my perspective they are doubling down on their controversial laws/beliefs and are actively discouraging tourism from a large percentage of the world. I just don't understand the logic.

so you expect them to give up their beliefs to please others? I am in no way saying that Qatar should not be questions, for the purpose of revealing the truth, about important matters such as immigrant workers losing their lives in the process. However, to come here and say Qatar should bin all their beliefs and laws to satisfy others is just wrong.

we kept hearing criticism every now and then in the build up for the world cup, but when did it all escalate? It escalated when LGBT community were asked to respect the laws of the country. The whole world erupted!

i don’t want to resolve world issues in this forum, but why don’t we see similar reactions from the global community when innocent people are shot dead, pushed out of their homes, in Palestine?

for those who keep saying human rights are not subjective, they need to have a reality check.

I just hate the fact that some people want this world cup to be about anything but football.

 

[maniak]

i don’t want to resolve world issues in this forum, but why don’t we see similar reactions from the global community when innocent people are shot dead, pushed out of their homes, in Palestine?

All western countries have regular pro-palestine demonstrations. There was one in portugal just a few months ago, another one late last year.

 

[moses]

i don’t want to resolve world issues in this forum, but why don’t we see similar reactions from the global community when innocent people are shot dead, pushed out of their homes, in Palestine?

All western countries have regular pro-palestine demonstrations. There was one in portugal just a few months ago, another one late last year.

The council in Dublin flew a Palestinian flag over our GPO (hugely important historical building and site of our revolution) for a year a few years back.

When Dublin play games there is always one and up to 5 Palestinian flags in the home end.

Edit - That's issue people refuse to see, that people who care actually care. Weaponising compassion is a new low.

Palestinian flags at GAA match in Ireland
https://www.irishnews.com/news/2018...lster-council-saying-they-are-banned-1346368/

 

[maniak]

The council in Dublin flew a Palestinian flag over our GPO (hugely important historical building and site of our revolution) for a year a few years back.

When Dublin play games there is always one and up to 5 Palestinian flags in the home end.

Great stuff. One major issue here is that people asking "wow why are these people online so vocal NOW? such hypocrisy" don't realize that the most vocal people are engaged with different issues all the time. They get a perception that some people are exaggerating now when in fact it's them who haven't been paying attention the rest of the time.

And the "it must be because they're muslim" is such a cheap shot, considering issues on the forefront of recent activism has been in defense of palestinians and, at least in lisbon, in defense of muslims in china.

 

[moses]

Great stuff. One major issue here is that people asking "wow why are these people online so vocal NOW? such hypocrisy" don't realize that the most vocal people are engaged with different issues all the time. They get a perception that some people are exaggerating now when in fact it's them who haven't been paying attention the rest of the time.

And the "it must be because they're muslim" is such a cheap shot, considering issues on the forefront of recent activism has been in defense of palestinians and, at least in lisbon, in defense of muslims in china.

It's really infuriating, like I edited above, it's literally weaponising compassion.

 

[united for life]

All western countries have regular pro-palestine demonstrations. There was one in portugal just a few months ago, another one late last year.

i do not want to take anything away from those demonstrations, but an annual demonstration here and there by small groups does not compare to what is happening now with Qatar. People get displaced, executed, imprisoned but still do not get a fraction of the support the LGBT community is receiving. I really don’t want to take the discussion to another issue, but just wanted to highlight a fact that is so clear is ugly

 

[united for life]

The council in Dublin flew a Palestinian flag over our GPO (hugely important historical building and site of our revolution) for a year a few years back.

When Dublin play games there is always one and up to 5 Palestinian flags in the home end.

Edit - That's issue people refuse to see, that people who care actually care. Weaponising compassion is a new low.

Palestinian flags at GAA match in Ireland
https://www.irishnews.com/news/2018...lster-council-saying-they-are-banned-1346368/

i recall that. It was great to see such support. Nonetheless, this is one country (with all due respect) taking a stand. I really have never seen the world going all against what happens to Palestinians.

a palestinian journalist was shot and killed. The western papers wrote “a Palestinian journalist dies”… again, all respect to those who make a stand, but it is always very insignificant compared to the occasion.

in Qatar, however, the scene is a “bit” different.

 

[united for life]

Thing is, and this is crucial, no one’s ‘telling qatar to change their beliefs’…

People are up in arms because wearing an armband has been censored AFTER THE FACT. Wearing a rainbow t shirt has been censored after the fact. As with the timing of the fecking tournament itself - the qatar government WENT BACK ON WHAT THEY SAID.

Gay people aren’t up in arms because they want to start fecking in the streets of qatar - rather, people of all persuasions are up in arms because of the cowardly censorship of a pathetic, corrupt regime.

It isn’t the wider football World that’s initially made this about anything other than football, it’s the qatar government and FIFA!

If it was ‘just as about football’, as you’re saying it should be, then the stance would be, ‘Sure, come along, wear rainbow patterns if you want, wear armbands - WE DON’T CARE AS LONG AS THE FOOTBALL’S HERE’.

But that’s not what’s happened.

It’s not gay people, or migrant workers or oppressed women who’ve made this WC about ‘things other than football’ - it’s qatar and fifa.

Direct your ire at them - not at the people they’re oppressing or trying to censor.

did it start with the armband? Or Qatar asking LGBT community to show respect to the country’s laws when they’re there. Let’s get the facts correct. Please do correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[maniak]

i do not want to take anything away from those demonstrations, but an annual demonstration here and there by small groups does not compare to what is happening now with Qatar. People get displaced, executed, imprisoned but still do not get a fraction of the support the LGBT community is receiving. I really don’t want to take the discussion to another issue, but just wanted to highlight a fact that is so clear is ugly

What is happening now in qatar? I haven't seen any mass demonstrations? It's been basically qatar doing whatever they want and people pointing out how shitty the situation is being accused of hypocrisy right left and center. Compared to what qatar does, the reaction has been absurdly tame.

 

[moses]

i recall that. It was great to see such support. Nonetheless, this is one country (with all due respect) taking a stand. I really have never seen the world going all against what happens to Palestinians.

a palestinian journalist was shot and killed. The western papers wrote “a Palestinian journalist dies”… again, all respect to those who make a stand, but it is always very insignificant compared to the occasion.

in Qatar, however, the scene is a “bit” different.

There is huge global sympathy with Palestine. Much more activist than any real action in Qatar.

 

[united for life]

There is huge global sympathy with Palestine. Much more activist than any real action in Qatar.

i really wish this was true, though sympathy is not enough for what is happening there.

and i am sincerely not “weaponising compassion” here.

 

[moses]

i really wish this was true, though sympathy is not enough for what is happening there.

and i am sincerely not “weaponising compassion” here.

Sympathy is not enough, nobody said it was. You brought up Palestine as an example of people not caring, but many do. We also care about oppressed in Qatar. Oppression is oppression.

 

[Stack]

i really wish this was true, though sympathy is not enough for what is happening there.

and i am sincerely not “weaponising compassion” here.

We have the Ukraine president addressing the NZ parliament sometime in the next week. The immediate reaction to that was a push to get the Palestinian leaders to also address our parliament. There really is huge support for Palestine around the world, we have regular protests here supporting them.
I think its true that sympathy isnt enough but you are missing the whole point of boycotting the WC in Qatar. Its a perfect storm of two things combining at the time of the biggest sporting event in the world. Massive dissatisfaction for the absolute corruptness and double standards of FIFA and the simple fact the WC should never have been awarded to QATAR.

Arguments have been hyperbolised by both sides

You absolutely are weaponising compassion.

 

[united for life]

Sympathy is not enough, nobody said it was. You brought up Palestine as an example of people not caring, but many do. We also care about oppressed in Qatar. Oppression is oppression.

sympathy is fair enough. You are right. This is the most some people can do. I agree.

but still, i never heard of Qataris complain of oppression. Been there and know some nationals, they are happy

 

[stevoc]

It matters. It may sound inhumane but if 3 workers died in a span of ten years that very different than hundred or thousands dying which would indicate a systemic problem.

Big if mate. And personally it would still be 3 too many for me if they happened because people were being forced to work in unsafe conditions.

I also don't like saying "it's probably high" based on what? Just because you feel it is?

I don't wanna waste my time defending corrupt bastards in Qatar. They need no defending and should be shamed but I don't wanna get sucked into some of the exaggerated claims of migrant worker deaths and slavery (which, is quite annoying to see the word just thrown around like that )

There are plenty of other issues in/with Qatar. I don't see why we have to make up stuff that isn't.

If I'd just pulled my opinion out of my arse I'd be in good company on here but no. The Guardian death numbers were obviously sensationalist, but as I said there's no way of knowing the real numbers because of the way Qatar themselves are handling these deaths. The treatment of the workers in Qatar is something I've been following for years. My opinion is based on the many reports form the likes of Amnesty International and Human rights watch that details the working conditions over there that people are being forced to work in. They also monitor the sheer amount of deaths that are seemingly due to natural causes which the Qatari government don't seem to investigate. That also don't seem to track with what they should be for a country that has a very good health care system. Here's are some links that detail this and the working conditions.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-re...orker-deaths-remain-uninvestigated-new-report

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/11/17/fifa/qatar-migrant-workers-call-compensation-abuses

https://www.globalconstructionreview.com/qatars-world-cup-workers-ca7n-wo7rk-148-d7ays/

There's also been lots of investigations by independent journalists that look into the conditions that cover the same areas. Here's a great recent one that shines a light on the horrific conditions these guys are working in. And the information is form guys who have worked there and filming on the ground in the worker camps in Qatar.

 

[moses]

sympathy is fair enough. You are right. This is the most some people can do. I agree.

but still, i never heard of Qataris complain of oppression. Been there and know some nationals, they are happy

Well this is at least an engagement. Most just say the fuss is racist. But you think there is actually no issue?

I think the issue lies with non nationals in terns of workers and with the LGBT issue, I don't think they'd be broadcasting their orientation?

 

[united for life]

We have the Ukraine president addressing the NZ parliament sometime in the next week. The immediate reaction to that was a push to get the Palestinian leaders to also address our parliament. There really is huge support for Palestine around the world, we have regular protests here supporting them.
I think its true that sympathy isnt enough but you are missing the whole point of boycotting the WC in Qatar. Its a perfect storm of two things combining at the time of the biggest sporting event in the world. Massive dissatisfaction for the absolute corruptness and double standards of FIFA and the simple fact the WC should never have been awarded to QATAR.

Arguments have been hyperbolised by both sides

You absolutely are weaponising compassion.

is this the word of the day? I am not mate. Compassion does not help the cause anyway! I respect the demonstrations for any noble cause. But is it enough? Is it loud enough? Is it as “aggressive”as what is happening now?

by the way, are you boycotting the world cup?

 

[Pintu]

Great stuff. One major issue here is that people asking "wow why are these people online so vocal NOW? such hypocrisy" don't realize that the most vocal people are engaged with different issues all the time. They get a perception that some people are exaggerating now when in fact it's them who haven't been paying attention the rest of the time.

And the "it must be because they're muslim" is such a cheap shot, considering issues on the forefront of recent activism has been in defense of palestinians and, at least in lisbon, in defense of muslims in china.

I think that's directed primarily at the Media and the FAs. We all know there is no way they'd get vocal about injustices committed primarily by Western powers. I don't remember Western media going anywhere near this kind of bashing of Israel when they covered the 2019 Eurovision. The only delegation that dared do a gesture was Iceland's, and they certainly didn't get any support in the western MSM.

 

[united for life]

Well this is at least an engagement. Most just say the fuss is racist. But you think there is actually no issue?

I think the issue lies with non nationals in terns of workers and with the LGBT issue, I don't think they'd be broadcasting their orientation?

In my fist post in this thread I mentioned that there should be an investigation about whether immigrant workers were killed in the process. For the sake of the truth, no matter what it is.

as for LGBT, i still think people should just respect Qatar’s laws which stem from religious beliefs

 

[united for life]

What the ever living shit are you even talking about…? You’re completely wrong.

What are the LGBT community doing that’s disrespecting qatar’s laws!? Please specify.

How does anything that’s kicking off there have ANYTHING at all to do with the LGBT community’s behaviour? Again, please be specific.

How have they overstepped the mark?

At this point, literally all of this fallout is about qatar censoring free speech.

I’ve not even heard from a single gay person there - as qatar wanted their voices have been completely shut down.

naaa. Won’t continue talking to you. You’re way below my level

 

[Thom Merrilin]

so you expect them to give up their beliefs to please others? I am in no way saying that Qatar should not be questions, for the purpose of revealing the truth, about important matters such as immigrant workers losing their lives in the process. However, to come here and say Qatar should bin all their beliefs and laws to satisfy others is just wrong.

we kept hearing criticism every now and then in the build up for the world cup, but when did it all escalate? It escalated when LGBT community were asked to respect the laws of the country. The whole world erupted!

i don’t want to resolve world issues in this forum, but why don’t we see similar reactions from the global community when innocent people are shot dead, pushed out of their homes, in Palestine?

for those who keep saying human rights are not subjective, they need to have a reality check.

I just hate the fact that some people want this world cup to be about anything but football.

No I don't expect an entire country to change their beliefs, especially when a lot of those beliefs come from religious indoctrination. I did however expect Qatar to be more welcoming to other cultures seeing as they're putting their country on the world stage. Their attitude seems to be "our way or the highway" which is fine, it's their country and they can do what they want.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say regarding LGBT folks getting upset. Should they accept being being told that their sexuality is wrong?

As others have pointed out, there are pro-palestine marches and protests all over the western world. This is a thread about Qatar though.

I'm not sure how human rights could be subjective?? If you accept the fact that people of all race, gender, and sexuality are equal then surely human rights are universal and completely objective.

Personally, I think human rights are more important than any sport or game. I think a lot of people feel the same which is why there's so much discussion around things not football related.

 

[Pintu]

In my fist post in this thread I mentioned that there should be an investigation about whether immigrant workers were killed in the process. For the sake of the truth, no matter what it is.

as for LGBT, i still think people should just respect Qatar’s laws which stem from religious beliefs

As things stands, Qatar doesn't have laws against rainbow flags. So preventing fans and even some journalists from taking some rainbow symbols into stadiums, which seems to have happened repeatedly, is not keeping the law strictly speaking. It's doubling down on censorship.

 

[stevoc]

sympathy is fair enough. You are right. This is the most some people can do. I agree.

but still, i never heard of Qataris complain of oppression. Been there and know some nationals, they are happy

Out of interest have you heard anyone say Qatari nationals are one of the groups being oppressed by the Qatati government?

 

[Karmapolice]

as a palestinian, i just wanna chime in in regards to this mysterious widespread palestinian sympathy(whatever that means?) in the west! where is it again?
how did this so called "sympathy" ever change anything on the ground? all we can notice is a full on israeli impunity provided by the west.

western establishment, governments, mainstream media and what have you are anything but pro or sympathetic towards palestinians.

if people here hate when the palestinian plight used as "whataboutism", then they also shouldn't use this bigfoot-esque sympathy to derail any discourse regarding western hegemonic rule, no?

also, from my own anecdotal experience, the vast majority of the palestinian activism in the west comes from minorities and people with immigrant background.