Not at all. Look at the kidnapping of Shannon Matthews. It's becoming more and more of a problem.
Do you, hand on heart, think that this is a crime that could have taken place in any household of any social class?
Body Found in Tia Sharp's Grandmother's house
- Thread starter Randall Flagg
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Not at all. Look at the kidnapping of Shannon Matthews. It's becoming more and more of a problem.
Do you, hand on heart, think that this is a crime that could have taken place in any household of any social class?
Murder? Yes, that happens in all walks of life.
Are incidents of child murder/kidnapping going up? Is it becoming more of a problem?
What a ridiculous post. Absurd.
You're being deliberately obtuse.
Murder is murder. This type of murder is something I associate with this element of society. Allowing a child to be alone with someone with that kind of criminal record is something that does not go on in a normal household.
Do you really think this is in any way similar to, say, the murders by Levi Bellfield a few years back?
How?
There are 4 social classes now, it's been this way for a while. You can make it even simpler if you make it broader.
There are those who work, and those who don't. This girl was unfortunate enough to be born to the latter. It's a different society.
Are you really trying to draw a general link between unemployment and child murder Alastair?
"It is my belief, Watson, founded upon my experience, that the lowest and vilest alleys in London do not present a more dreadful record of sin than does the smiling and beautiful countryside."
Sherlock Holmes in The Adventure of The Copper Beeches
Sherlock Holmes in The Adventure of The Copper Beeches
I'm drawing a link between leaving your child at home with a bloke who's been arrested for carrying a machete and has been a drug dealer and murder, yes.
The fact he's chronically unemployed, lacking aspiration and is clearly a complete low-life is secondary, but exists nonetheless.
But obviously the left will tell you this is just a coincidence.
I dare say it's not normal in households from any kind of social class.
Exackerly. The reason we're appalled by these cases is that they're the anomalies, not the trends.
Well that flies in the face of every statistic, but you know, Conan-Doyle said it so it must be true.
No-one is claiming murders don't happen in wealthy households, but they don't often come about like this one, do they?
Of course it's still an anomaly. But if you're trying to tell me the average family in Britain would even entertain the concept of leaving a 12 year old girl with a man like that, you're mad. Would you?
Alright, enough. My best mate and his mum were murdered by her husband, a man with a significant criminal record and long history of domestic violence. They were upper-middle class.
Of course I wouldn't. Nor would almost any right-minded individual, regardless of how far up or down the social scale they fall. But occasionally people do. Sometimes stupidity finds a way.
Much as I sympathise with the story, this isn't the same thing.
That is a family. What happened here was that the family allowed this girl to go to the grand-mother's house when she was not in and spend the evening with a man who was outside the family who had a criminal record. It's different.
All elements of society commit the most heinous of crimes, no doubt.
Likewise a lady I work with - a serious, decent, middle-class professional - has had two children with a guy who has served time for, among other things, armed robbery less than ten years ago.
You would be suprised at the people that visit violent criminals and believe every single word they say. "He is misunderstood.... he was set up " etc etc. 'Well to do' people (so to speak) are certainly not less likely to leave their child with an ex convict. I have 12 years of watching professional woman and men fall (I don't mean in love all the time) for the charms and lies. They tend to be the most arrogant visitors as well.
That's the point where I disagree, simply because I believe in this social underclass where you can go down a street and find 90% of the residents not working, and where a similar percentage have criminal records.
I don't really consider it stupidity, I consider it as how these people judge characters differently to how most do. This is not something that happened once; the girl stayed with him a lot. I just feel that if you come from a background where almost everyone you know has been involved in some sort of crime at whatever level, trust of dangerous people is actually quite high.
At what point do you disagree? That most people - most 'lower class' people even - would not entrust their young child to a violent criminal?
In fairness to alistair, he's right that this sort of stuff doesn't happen in the higher social classes.
You'd never get, say, two doctors of upper middle class background leaving their young daughter alone whilst they went out, so that she could be kidnapped and never seen again. That sort of stuff only happens to workshy scumbags on benefits.
You'd never get, say, two doctors of upper middle class background leaving their young daughter alone whilst they went out, so that she could be kidnapped and never seen again. That sort of stuff only happens to workshy scumbags on benefits.
I don't agree that it is always stupidity to allow that situation to develop.
For the majority of people, it's stupid. But is it for these people?
In the town where I work, there were 283 cases of crime recorded in June of which 252 were committed in 3 streets. It was generally drug offences, and anti-social behaviour.
This is a big town we're talking about, not a little village. If you were to grow up in those three streets, you would be living in a different society. One where crime was normal, where the people you are brought up to trust probably have criminal records.
Therefore the point isn't that this underclass commit more murders than the upper class(although I imagine they do) but it's more how the murders that do occur come about. The most sickening thing about this case was the level of trust that was afforded to this man to essentially look after this young girl.
Like it or not, over the last twenty years or so, there has developed a very worrying new social class that fit into the 4th tier.
I see what you did there.
Key word, alone. It was irresponsible. But was it as irresponsible as leaving a girl knowingly with a criminal who wasn't even particularly well known to the family? It's a different thing entirely.
Al, you are a posh spaz.
It's not being posh to state that there's a social underclass.
I'd be interested to hear what social class people think that this chap belongs to?
I'd be interested to hear what social class people think that this chap belongs to?
I'm not sure how you've identified this great social change. Crime has been falling pretty consistently for many years and unemployment was low for the latter half the 90s and most of the 00s (before a recent spike due to the financial crisis).
He's clearly part of this social underclass, as are the rest of them, but that doesn't make them any more predisposed to murder than anyone else.
I know, and I've said this about twenty times now.
I bet the rate of chronic unemployment has risen though.
Would you say that people living off welfare and having no intention to work is a genuine problem in this country, or over-hyped?
The problem right now from a labourforce point of view is there are simply not enough jobs to go round. There are not lots of jobs going unfilled.
His interview earlier.
You problem seems to be with the unemployed. I'm not quite sure where the two arguments are supposed to intersect.
I'd agree in some areas, but in others it's not the case. I was having this argument with a friend of mine, and I proved you can get a job if you want one enough. Especially in the Croydon area where this guy lived, easy.
Without submitting a CV, just by applying online I managed to get 5 interviews and 2 trials in jobs starting next week. Obviously I turned them down because it was purely an excercise, but it shows you. Clearly, if you live in North Wales, it might be a tad different.
I said before unemployment was secondary, but indicative of the type of people I'm referring to.
Obviously the turnover of jobs is greater in area like London and the South East, but it doesn't change the fact that there is not a surplus of jobs. The relatively high unemployment figures at present are due to a lack of available opportunities, not an unwilling labourforce.
fecking hell what a horrible thread to bring class politics Alastair. What were you thinking?
Naive of you if you don't mind me saying. I have personally known plenty of people who do not want to work and know all the right things to say to the DHSS to get as much benefit as possible. They exchange ideas with each other on how to scam it. There is no doubt that there is a significant number of people who actively shun work.
Don't be so mawkish. It's not like anyone involved is going to read this.