Bluemoon goes into Meltdown

Eyepopper said:
:lol: patronising? Sorry I thought it was you who called me Mother Teresa there.
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Seems to me that calling someone twelve and lacking emotional intelligence is patronising. It's sad that you can't be honest, even on a faceless forum. Also I take it you haven't bothered to read a small paragraph that vindicates myself and Ciderman's stance on this issue perfectly.
 
evra said:
That's because Smith was a complete genius.
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It doesn't really take a genius to point out that events that effect you most directly have the most impact on your emotions.

Well I guess it might seem it does.
 
evra said:
Seems to me that calling someone twelve and lacking emotional intelligence is patronising.
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I never called you 12 or said you lacked emotional intelligence, you asked if it made you a psychopath and I said no it made you 12, it was a joke, but hey you read Smith, you're obviously very serious. I suggested that lack of empathy is often a sign of low emotional intelligence.

Dont take everything so personally.

It's sad that you can't be honest, even on a faceless forum. Also I take it you haven't bothered to read a small paragraph that vindicates myself and Ciderman's stance on this issue perfectly.
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Vindicates your stance? fecking hell :lol:

Ok, I'm done with this....
 
Is it not one of the signs of maturing, possessing the ability to empathise and put other peoples needs, emotions above your own? The ability to care for other's isn't simply someone trying to be Mother Theresa, its a sign of intelligence, the ability to place things in rational perspective instead of being a slave to acting upon your own personal pains/pleasures.
 
Popper, you're wrong in your definition of empathy. Empathy is the knowing what others are feeling, not the caring about it and wanting to positively influence it.

For example; a master torturer and information extractor would need very high levels of empathy with his victims, or else he wouldn't be able to master his trade. But also he'd have to be extremely cold-hearted and uncaring, or else, again, he'd be no good at his job.

Would you agree with that? And if so, where does that leave your defining of empathy=caring.
 
Eyepopper said:
I never called you 12 or said you lacked emotional intelligence, you asked if it made you a psychopath and I said no it made you 12, it was a joke, but hey you read Smith, you're obviously very serious. I suggested that lack of empathy is often a sign of low emotional intelligence.





Vindicates your stance? fecking hell :lol:

Ok, I'm done with this....
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It shows that one of the greatest philosophers of all time recognised the sentiments myself and Cider described. The little finger is utd losing to Barcelona and the earthquake in China, well I shouldn't have to spell it out. According to Smith that's perfectly normal and human, it doesn't make you a child or someone lacking in emotional intelligence.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Popper, you're wrong in your definition of empathy. Empathy is the knowing what others are feeling, not the caring about it and wanting to positively influence it.
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How do you 'know' what someone else is feeling?

If you accurately empathise you cant help but care, but 'care' here isnt defined so who knows what we're talking about.


For example; a master torturer and information extractor would need very high levels of empathy with his victims, or else he wouldn't be able to master his trade. But also he'd have to be extremely cold-hearted and uncaring, or else, again, he'd be no good at his job.
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I totally disagree, all he has to know is details about human pain thresholds and some psychology.

The point is that if you had any clue what you were talking about you would realise that you access different emotions based on a whole range of factors, and that the resulting impact on your mood will therefore be different, its no great revelation to most people.

But anyway, despite my appetite to spend the day arguing about definitions of empathy, my point is making a statement like that comes across as very immature.
 
evra said:
It shows that one of the greatest philosophers of all time recognised the sentiments myself and Cider described. The little finger is utd losing to Barcelona and the earthquake in China, well I shouldn't have to spell it out. According to Smith that's perfectly normal and human, it doesn't make you a child or someone lacking in emotional intelligence.
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No it doesn't, but coming on an internet forum, and posting about how you care more about when Utd lose than you do when tens of thousands of people die in order to portray yourself as some sort of committed fan does.
 
But surely losing your little finger would hurt like fecking hell and you'd be traumatised for a brief while I'd imagine. I don't think its the best analogy, it's like saying if my cock got chopped off, I'd be more worried about it than people dying in a Tsunami.. well duh, yes I would be, it's just the nature of life as we know it that personal physical pain, trumps worries concerning other people - its a perfectly rational reaction.
 
Eyepopper said:
ood will therefore be different, its no great revelation to most people.

But anyway, despite my appetite to spend the day arguing about definitions of empathy, my point is making a statement like that comes across as very immature.
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If you can't be honest on a faceless forum then when can you be honest? It's great that you have taken the moral high ground but it doesn't really mean anything. Personally I suspect that if you're a Utd fan then you will have fretted more over the final in Rome than the disaster in Japan. I don't expect you to admit that though.
 
Raees said:
But surely losing your little finger would hurt like fecking hell and you'd be traumatised for a brief while I'd imagine. I don't think its the best analogy, it's like saying if my cock got chopped off, I'd be more worried about it than people dying in a Tsunami.. well duh, yes I would be, it's just the nature of life as we know it that personal physical pain, trumps worries concerning other people - its a perfectly rational reaction.
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Why do you think he used "little finger"? It's because it's not really an important part of your anatomy, compared to losing your cock I'd say it's pretty fecking trivial.
 
evra said:
If you can't be honest on a faceless forum then when can you be honest? It's great that you have taken the moral high ground but it doesn't really mean anything. Personally I suspect that if you're a Utd fan then you will have fretted more over the final in Rome than the disaster in Japan. I don't expect you to admit that though.
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oh..er..lost final vs tsunami and accompanying nuclear disaster.
 
I'm with Cider, if we genuinely cared more about people we don't know being killed than United or our own personal insignificant pleasures then we would all cancel our season tickets, cancel our Sky subscriptions, sell our TVs and donate all our newly spare income to the 3rd world or disaster funds.
 
evra said:
If you can't be honest on a faceless forum then when can you be honest? It's great that you have taken the moral high ground but it doesn't really mean anything. Personally I suspect that if you're a Utd fan then you will have fretted more over the final in Rome than the disaster in Japan. I don't expect you to admit that though.
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:lol: taking the moral high ground, being dishonest, it always comes back to the same bullshit doesn't it? If you came on here and said 'yeah but my dad could beat your dad in a fight' I'd tell you you were being immature, it has nothing to do with being dishonest or taking the moral high ground, it has to do with not being a feckwit.

I was effected in a totally different way by the earthquake in Japan than I was by losing in Rome, I'm emotionally intelligent enough to be able to differentiate what I'm feeling and identify that comparison between them is useless.
 
Eyepopper said:
No it doesn't, but coming on an internet forum, and posting about how you care more about when Utd lose than you do when tens of thousands of people die in order to portray yourself as some sort of committed fan does.
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Great argument there, really considered. My original post was that I felt more grief when we lost to Barca than when the tsunami hit, that was just me being honest. If anyone is making false statements to show themselves in a good light it's you mate.
 
This thread has been fecked up big time.

On the subject of empathy, when I was in the hospital a few days ago an old lady came in with her husband who was in a wheelchair. She went up to the desk and said she was here because her husband was very confused. That's all she said but I could see he was not in a good way and at that moment I felt incredibly sad for her, in fact I've thought about it every day since. I've never felt like that after a Utd loss but I wouldn't compare them either because it makes no sense to.
 
evra said:
Great argument there, really considered.
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I was actually agreeing with you, not arguing.

My original post was that I felt more grief when we lost to Barca than when the tsunami hit, that was just me being honest. If anyone is making false statements to show themselves in a good light it's you mate.
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Grief?

Oh dear.

No lack of emotional intelligence round here.
 
Eyepopper said:
:lol: taking the moral high ground, being dishonest, it always comes back to the same bullshit doesn't it? If you came on here and said 'yeah but my dad could beat your dad in a fight' I'd tell you you were being immature, it has nothing to do with being dishonest or taking the moral high ground, it has to do with not being a feckwit.

I was effected in a totally different way by the earthquake in Japan than I was by losing in Rome, I'm emotionally intelligent enough to be able to differentiate what I'm feeling and identify that comparison between them is useless.
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I compared the two by saying I lost sleep over the Rome final and I haven't about the Japan disaster, surely that's a perfectly reasonable way to measure how much an event has affected you?
 
evra said:
That could effect me therefore I have fretted considerably about that.
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Oh, so what you're saying is unless if effects you, you dont worry about it?

Wouldn't that be an indication of failure to empathise?

Isn't inability to empathise a symptom of low emotional intelligence?
 
evra said:
Why do you think he used "little finger"? It's because it's not really an important part of your anatomy, compared to losing your cock I'd say it's pretty fecking trivial.
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Regardless, it would hurt like hell.. you'd be unable to place it in context whilst suffering the pain. Arrrghhh my lil finger, but alas at least it wasn't my thumb arrghhh. Personal physical pain, as trivial as it may seem in the long run, will lead to any normal person being more concerned with their own physical well being above that of their peers in a different part of the world.

I'd rather have United not win the CL for another 50 years if it meant me keeping my little finger.

I see where you & Cider are coming from i.e. that whilst some are professing great empathy with the victims of the Tsunami, in reality a United CL loss would hurt alot more and I agree for some it would.. but that doesn't mean that is an entirely rational response, it just means some of us have got our perspectives in life a tad messed up. Humans are irrational creatures too.

Anyway the little finger analogy doesn't work, because in that instance I'm sure 99.9% would be concerned with their little finger in the immediate moments of suffering the pain of getting it hacked off.
 
evra said:
I compared the two by saying I lost sleep over the Rome final and I haven't about the Japan disaster, surely that's a perfectly reasonable way to measure how much an event has effected you?
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Not sure, I've lost sleep the night before going to the dentist, I'm scared of needles see, but when my Dad was on life support I slept like a baby, I was totally exhausted.

Could it be that I care more about going to the dentist than I do about my Dad being at deaths door? Or could it be that they are different emotions, connected to different events that produce different reactions and therefore comparison is futile?

Yeah you're right, its probably that I really hate the dentists.
 
Raees said:
Regardless, it would hurt like hell.. you'd be unable to place it in context whilst suffering the pain. Arrrghhh my lil finger, but alas at least it wasn't my thumb arrghhh. Personal physical pain, as trivial as it may seem in the long run, will lead to any normal person being more concerned with their own physical well being above that of their peers in a different part of the world.

I'd rather have United not win the CL for another 50 years if it meant me keeping my little finger.

I see where you & Cider are coming from i.e. that whilst some are professing great empathy with the victims of the Tsunami, in reality a United CL loss would hurt alot more and I agree for some it would.. but that doesn't mean that is an entirely rational response, it just means some of us have got our perspectives in life a tad messed up. Humans are irrational creatures too.

Anyway the little finger analogy doesn't work, because in that instance I'm sure 99.9% would be concerned with their little finger in the immediate moments of suffering the pain of getting it hacked off.
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The reason the chap isn't sleeping at night has nothing to do with the agonising pain! You've taken it far too literally. He's not sleeping because he has lost something personal to himself that is comparatively trivial to the disaster in China. Think why he used the little finger as an example.
 
Eyepopper said:
Not sure, I've lost sleep the night before going to the dentist, I'm scared of needles see, but when my Dad was on life support I slept like a baby, I was totally exhausted.

Could it be that I care more about going to the dentist than I do about my Dad being at deaths door? Or could it be that they are different emotions, connected to different events that produce different reactions and therefore comparison is futile?

Yeah you're right, its probably that I really hate the dentists.
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You've just highlighted two variables that show correlation isn't always causation. I'm telling you that I didn't sleep after the Rome final because I was running the game through my mind and fretting about it, that hasn't happened with the tsunami.
 
.. and I'm telling you that comparing the emotions each caused you is in my book irrelevant and immature.
 
Yes mate, taken it literally, but in my opinion the best analogies work at all levels. The little finger example is a great one at demonstrating how something trivial in the long run can be so important to an individual in comparison to a mass loss of life somewhere else. But we have to ask why is this so? answer is the physical pain element as well as the emotional distress, it trumps anything else.. our concern for our physical wellbeing is of utmost importance.

You tried to use this analogy to compare United losing to Barca and the Tsunami, but it doesn't work as well due to the fact.. United losing doesn't inflict physical pain, its purely an irrational emotional response and therefore its quite an immature response which quite a few of us would no doubt be guilty of but that doesn't mean its a response we should be proud of. Kids always put their own emotional wants/interests first, above more important competing interests.
 
Thank you Raees.... pretty much what I've been trying to say.
 
Raees said:
Yes mate, taken it literally, but in my opinion the best analogies work at all levels. The little finger example is a great one at demonstrating how something trivial in the long run can be so important to an individual in comparison to a mass loss of life somewhere else. But we have to ask why is this so? answer is the physical pain element as well as the emotional distress, it trumps anything else.. our concern for our physical wellbeing is of utmost importance.

You tried to use this analogy to compare United losing to Barca and the Tsunami, but it doesn't work as well due to the fact.. United losing doesn't inflict physical pain, its purely an irrational emotional response and therefore its quite an immature response which quite a few of us would no doubt be guilty of but that doesn't mean its a response we should be proud of. Kids always put their own emotional wants/interests first, above more important competing interests.
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Please don't take this the wrong way but the way you've reacted to this example is a bit Karl Pilkingtonesque. In a good way though because it's interesting that your mind has interpreted it that literal, fairly original way. It goes without saying that if someone hacked off your finger you wouldn't sleep for the physical pain of it but I assure you that's not the point Smith is trying to make. The guy is losing sleep because he is mourning the loss of his little finger. Smith is comparing that to the fact he isn't mourning the loss of those countless millions in China.
 
Eyepopper said:
Thank you Raees.... pretty much what I've been trying to say.
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Raees said:
Its purely an irrational emotional response and therefore its quite an immature response which quite a few of us would no doubt be guilty of but that doesn't mean its a response we should be proud of. Kids always put their own emotional wants/interests first, above more important competing interests.
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When did I ever say I was proud of it? I'm just enjoying the freedom to be honest on a faceless forum. If I was at a dinner party I would never admit that because it's just not done. I think it is childish to freely admit you feel that way when you know there will be repercussions (people thinking you are heartless). But I'm comfortable knowing that I feel that way because it doesn't make me an infant or emotionally lacking, rather in Smith's eyes it makes me human. Frankly that's good enough for me.
 
Eyepopper said:
Oh, so what you're saying is unless if effects you, you dont worry about it?

Wouldn't that be an indication of failure to empathise?

Isn't inability to empathise a symptom of low emotional intelligence?
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Or an indication of our capacity to exercise dissociation. That Smith text above is more a reflection on dissociation-the normal psychological defense mechanism we deploy to protect against internalising all ills and woes the world over.
 
evra said:
Please don't take this the wrong way but the way you've reacted to this example is a bit Karl Pilkingtonesque. In a good way though because it's interesting that your mind has interpreted it that literal, fairly original way. It goes without saying that if someone hacked off your finger you wouldn't sleep for the physical pain of it but I assure you that's not the point Smith is trying to make. The guy is losing sleep because he is mourning the loss of his little finger. Smith is comparing that to the fact he isn't mourning the loss of those countless millions in China.
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Its still something to which he has a physical connection, over something to which he has no physical connection.

In the case of Utd / Japan there is no physical connection, therefore the little finger analogy isn't the same.
 
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