Hitzfeld didn't make that tactical mistake. If Hitzfeld subbed off Matthäus even though he wanted to stay on, it would have been an equally big fall-out in Munich, no doubt about that. It might have lead to Hitzfeld being forced to leave actually, but that's just silly speculation and also ignores that Matthäus wasn't there to make tactical decisions. He was there to finish the job, but didn't despite himself admitting later that he could have stayed on. It's my last post on that matter though. It's no way near as important to me as this discussion makes it look like. Like I said before, my rather harmless 3 lines are by now massively blown out of proportion.
Billy No Mates Draft: QF - Tuppet vs Balu/crappy
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
It was a rather strong accusation to be honest. And of course such OTT criticism of Matthaus hasn't just started in this game.
That has nothing to do with this game though. Even our write up mentioned Stefano + Lothar as an incredible combination. We did not once say that Lothar is not in his best role etc.
11-8.. which includes another WUM vote by akash for Tuppet.
He's doing that in every game, is he?I distinctly remember during that match saying to my dad not long after the sub that you were looking less organised in defence. I still don't know whether or not that was said more in hope than in expectation though, as its been ages since I watched anything more than highlights from that match.
Very interesting discussion here. Minimal weaknesses on both sides, so rather than try to pick holes I'm just going with the team that captured my imagination more, which is Balu/Crappy's 4-4-2. I'm a sucker for a well-executed 4-4-2, I love the Vidic/Sciea partnership, Vidic and Lizarazu are IMO two of the most underrated players in their respective positions, and that Ronaldo/Eusebio partnership is just electrifying. I feel bad voting against Tuppet as his team is near-final worthy already, but then again he's already received Akash's customary 3-0 vote
11-10 - tasty.
What's the thinking about dealing with Di Stefano? Is it the assumption that Eusebio and Ronaldo will occupy Passarella and Maldini to the extent whereby Hierro will inevitably be forced to drop in, help out and screen balls into feet? And on that, it becomes more of a 2v2 rather than a 3v2 in the middle?
What's the thinking about dealing with Di Stefano? Is it the assumption that Eusebio and Ronaldo will occupy Passarella and Maldini to the extent whereby Hierro will inevitably be forced to drop in, help out and screen balls into feet? And on that, it becomes more of a 2v2 rather than a 3v2 in the middle?
You're a wise man, Pat. For so many reasons.I distinctly remember during that match saying to my dad not long after the sub that you were looking less organised in defence. I still don't know whether or not that was said more in hope than in expectation though, as its been ages since I watched anything more than highlights from that match.
Very interesting discussion here. Minimal weaknesses on both sides, so rather than try to pick holes I'm just going with the team that captured my imagination more, which is Balu/Crappy's 4-4-2. I'm a sucker for a well-executed 4-4-2, I love the Vidic/Sciea partnership, Vidic and Lizarazu are IMO two of the most underrated players in their respective positions, and that Ronaldo/Eusebio partnership is just electrifying. I feel bad voting against Tuppet as his team is near-final worthy already, but then again he's already received Akash's customary 3-0 vote
Yeah, basically that. Sit deeper to soak up pressure, force Hierro/Passarella to be careful moving forward and create space for Eusebio and Ronaldo on the counter. Both didn't just excel in these quick transitions in a high pressing systems we often see today, they both loved to run over the whole pitch in counterattacks. That should suit us fine, when we're defending in two banks of four.
In general, I'm not a big fan of reducing the midfield battle to a pure numbers game though. I don't think we can fight for dominance in midfield, we'd lose that battle. However we can make life difficult for Di Stefano and Matthäus in a clash with our two central midfielders and at the same time maximise Scirea's impact in our defense. There's certainly a beauty in the fact that Scirea has a free role to help out and doesn't have to deal with a specific opponent with everyone of Tuppet's attackers covered, at least initially. But it's clearly a lot that is asked of Edwards and Masopust here, no doubt about that. Especially from Edwards, who is tasked to keep up with Di Stefano.
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I think that's probably crazy talk. Cech would make most people's top 20s.
I think it depends if you give some preference to keepers from the modern era. I'd say that's fair to a point as many of the pre-1960s keepers were somewhat rough around the edges and clearly the current generation are an agile and athletic bunch. In some ways they have adapted to the demands of the modern game - good on the ball, quick off the mark to sweep, fewer aerial battles - whereas the old boys had to be more physical, had to deal with more crosses and had to be more willing to stick their neck on the line.
1950-1960s - Yashin, Beara, Banks
1970s - Mazurkiewicz, Maier, Zoff, Fillol, Shilton, Jennings
1980s - Dasayev, Pfaff, Schumacher
1990s - Preudhomme, Schmeichel, Kahn
2000s - Buffon, VDS, Cech, Casillas
2010s - Neuer, De Gea
Out of that bunch, he's probably in the bottom handful but still on the fringes of the top 20.
That's a fair summary, I think.
However, if you're doing a Greatest 20 you'd probably want to include a small handful of old boys too, not least those who were innovators, ahead of their time, uncommonly athletic (for keepers of the day) and so forth.
And when you do that, Cech gets pushed further down the list. You could easily throw in someone like Planicka, for instance. You could throw in Viktor too, from a later period – and presto, Cech could easily enough find himself behind two other Czechs - and clearly out of the Top 20.
Anyway, in this particular context, I don't consider it an issue. As you suggest, how Cech is rated depends largely on the focus of the list as such. The more modern the bias, the higher up he is. And if he's plausibly in the Top 20 (and he is, with a more modern list), there isn't enough of a discrepancy between him and Banks for it to be significant. He's far too good a keeper to be anything resembling a weak point.
He, interesting Matthäus debate there. I haven't really thought about it much, until now, but I remember very well that moment when it became apparent Matthäus was coming off. I'm not going to lie and say that I positively predicted Bayern would tear at the seams without him there, but I'm not lying when I say that I was relieved to see him leave the pitch: He was such a presence, even at that stage – a giant of a player, someone you'd simply rather not face even as an OAP.
And then...boom.
Huge moment, that – for both Matthäus and United. It's impossible to say to what extent it influenced the outcome directly, but you could easily make a case for it being of considerable significance that he wasn't about during those last minutes.
And then...boom.
Huge moment, that – for both Matthäus and United. It's impossible to say to what extent it influenced the outcome directly, but you could easily make a case for it being of considerable significance that he wasn't about during those last minutes.
Pretty solid post, I agree with what you're saying here.
Does look like a WUM vote, but then again, there's a WUM vote in favour of the other team (if we're classing all win by 3 votes as WUMs).
Ha !! It seem the tide has well and truly turned here. Well there is not much to be discussed that has not already been discussed. On the subject of forcing Hierro deep to make midfield 2 v 2, it seem wrong to me. Ofcourse when we are defending Hierro and even Matthaus would be participating in defense, but in possession Hierro would move forward like any DLP and would make up the numbers in midfield. I don't see how Balu/crappy's midfield 2 could keep up with it.
It takes me to the simpler points of the game, our defense is better, Maldini and Passarealla are legends in defense. Ronaldo himself said -
While Maradona said of Passarella -
These are the 2 of the greatest attackers of all time talking about my defensive unit. And I am still not saying I could keep them scoreless, but its not like they are going to score hattricks here. My attack is not getting the loving I think, how is Vidic & Scirea are keeping them out without even a designated holding midfielder I don't know. They have spent their numbers upfront to create a deadly striker duo, but that doesn't seem to be affecting them in defense or midfield. I would most definitely keep more possession, I have the best midfielder on the pitch and the best player on the pitch, the best defensive duo as well as the best winger. I can see how I can lose this, I mean any team can beat any team at this stage, but I am sure my team would come on top 7 our of 10 times.
Anyway check out this cool and small Jairzinho video ( I really like this guy zouzinho's work, his videos on older players are excellent) -
It takes me to the simpler points of the game, our defense is better, Maldini and Passarealla are legends in defense. Ronaldo himself said -
While Maradona said of Passarella -
These are the 2 of the greatest attackers of all time talking about my defensive unit. And I am still not saying I could keep them scoreless, but its not like they are going to score hattricks here. My attack is not getting the loving I think, how is Vidic & Scirea are keeping them out without even a designated holding midfielder I don't know. They have spent their numbers upfront to create a deadly striker duo, but that doesn't seem to be affecting them in defense or midfield. I would most definitely keep more possession, I have the best midfielder on the pitch and the best player on the pitch, the best defensive duo as well as the best winger. I can see how I can lose this, I mean any team can beat any team at this stage, but I am sure my team would come on top 7 our of 10 times.
Anyway check out this cool and small Jairzinho video ( I really like this guy zouzinho's work, his videos on older players are excellent) -
I have to leave and won't be back for a while. If it goes to penalties, @crappycraperson is the man to finish the job. It's awesome that it's such a close game now, I think that's a fair reflection of the match-up.
Anyway, great game. Thanks @Tuppet . A shame that you slept through the Matthäus discussion, but @Aldo certainly made it a fair fight
.
Anyway, great game. Thanks @Tuppet . A shame that you slept through the Matthäus discussion, but @Aldo certainly made it a fair fight
.11-10
Tuppet leads by one +2 goals vote
Tuppet leads by one +2 goals vote
Also on the subject of WUM vote, I don't see why Akash's vote is a WUM and isotope's is not ? I know Akash always votes with the 3 goal margin, but thats probably to troll our voting system, and since balu/crappy have got a vote to win with 3 goal margin of their own I don't see why Akash's vote should be treated as special at all.
Just caught up on the Matthaus debate, thats very interesting and I don't really think I would add anything to it factually, as I have no idea whether he subbed himself or not. Now on the quote that I put there saying he is the most German player ever, I was just recalling one of your quotes on Backenbauer -
I guess its just that Akash never comments and always chooses the 3 goal margin, whereas Isotope is a draft veteran who often comments. I agree that there's no reason to suppose that Akash isn't voting for the team he thinks would win though, and goal difference hasn't proved to be a big factor so far anyway so it doesn't matter much.
Come on. He has voted in every match with + 3 vote. I am not saying don't count his vote, but it is maddening. It might be a laugh for some others but you can't fault someone to take a draft game a bit seriously.
No I get it, he is most likely trolling the voting system, but there is no reason to presume that he is not voting for the team he thinks would win. Since you already got a vote with 3 vote difference, I think it evens out nicely.
Balu/Crappy leads 12-11 .. oh well
But like Pat said then that assumes that Isotope is also trolling the voting system, I don't think there is any evidence to suggest the same. In any case, I am not bothered. He can vote as he want.
Dunno how I am losing here to be honest, I geniunly think I have a better team and more control in the game. May be because my attackers aren't as flashy, but seriously how his defense keeping out Di Stefano and Gerd Muller while my better defense is not keeping up with Eusebio and Ronaldo, I wouldn't know. I have better midfield and more wide threat in Boniek and Jairzinho.
Boneik especially is spreading the game and making it hard for Burgnich to tuck in, and he comes with a serious goal threat of his own. Jairzinho would beat Lizarazu frequently he is a direct and deadly winger who would engage his fullback completely.
Boneik especially is spreading the game and making it hard for Burgnich to tuck in, and he comes with a serious goal threat of his own. Jairzinho would beat Lizarazu frequently he is a direct and deadly winger who would engage his fullback completely.
Very tough to call this one. I think with the original lineups, I would have voted Tuppet but I really like the change the two boys have made. It's honestly a draw for me. 2-2.
I've just read through again and realised that! I think I must have mixed it up with the other match because I'm sure when I looked earlier, I felt Tuppet had the edge but was on my phone and wanted to look properly when I got home.
Got home and looked at the teams again and thought something was different. Either way, I can't pick between them.
As always, if penalties will be needed, I'm here to provide entertainment
1 goal lead to Tuppet the way I see it atm.
Hyperbole much? You have plenty of flashy players as well. We were not insulting voters when we were losing. To make it out that we were leading at that point just due to flashier name is horseshit. We have people like Czibor and Masopust who never get their due credit in a draft because they are not as celebrated as others.
We have the better attack. Ronaldo is a better number 9 than Muller and Eusebio would only rank slightly behind the two, but then he brings in other benefits to the team in terms of being capable of creating an opening for himself. Out on wings, Nedved is perfect for the role he has in our team and even purely on quality he is not inferior to any wide player. Nothing much between Jairzinho and Czibor as well with Boniek not quite as good as those 2.
Defense wise, I maintain that Banks gives us that edge. Like Balu said, Scirea is the best CB on the park with a perfect stopped in Vidic alongside him. Burgnich tucking in is actually perfect for a player like Boniek who could deviate all over the place. It would allow our defense to keep the shape and allow another defender to pick him up if required. Lizrazu held his own in WC and Euro winning teams, no question that he is up to the job here.
Tied game ladies and gentlemen
Gone for a plus1 goal win for BaluCrappy as Eusebio+Ronaldo seems too hot a combo to handle for a fairly slow center back pairing for Tuppet.
Having said that, Jairzinho vs Lizarazu seems like a major mismatch and Vidic will have his work cut out, covering for Lizarazu.
Having said that, Jairzinho vs Lizarazu seems like a major mismatch and Vidic will have his work cut out, covering for Lizarazu.
Don't see how this works to your advantage, tactically: Your players are brilliant and they will pose a threat - that's the essence of what you're saying. And it's obviously a fair point. But Boniek will not keep Burgnich from doing his job (which is primarily to defend against Boniek) by dragging him out wide.
Lizarazu will have to keep on his toes against Jairzinho, no question about it. But it's not an obvious mismatch - not for me, at least.
I think Balu/crappy's midfield (the central duo and the wingers) is excellently composed. For an offensive 4-4-2, the balance is just right and the individual quality of the players is beyond all doubt.
Not mentioned much - if at all - as regards the "midfield battle": As stated in the write-up, an important part of what Nedved brings to a match like this one, is his work in central areas: He is anything but a traditional winger, and will undoubtedly tend to tuck in if the run of play is such that the opponents aim to overflood the middle of the park.
Hardly anything in it, comparing the two XIs, and a match like this could swing both ways. For me, though, Balu/crappy's selection is pretty much perfectly suited to the system they've gone for.
I'd place more question marks over Tuppet's team. Junior, for instance, strikes me as a player who is a bit in the neither fowl nor fish category within T's chosen system: He strikes me as being there for no particular reason beyond being a generally very good player. There's nothing horribly wrong with that, obviously, but we have to nitpick at this level in order to separate the teams - that goes without saying.
Went with Balu/crappy at the end mainly because I'd prefer to see Davids/Matthaus combo in the middle and as mentioned Maldini on the left. Thought that would be more balanced given the match up. I really like the balance in Balu/crappy's team here which form me took the nod. IMO Tuppet has the better individuals but apart from the attack something for me just doesn't click in that formation in the back 5.
If you want I can do the penos. Just send me 5 kickers with right left or middle and a keeper with the same. @crappycraperson @Tuppet
Real roller coaster in the end. We led by one for a while, which I did not see coming at all given we were down by 5-6 at one point. Then Tuppet had a swing of 2 votes to lead by one before another prompt equalizer for us.
I ll send them across. And BTW damn you @Akash, I sincerely hope you meant the +3 vote seriously and were not jesting.