Thanks for this post and it totally makes sense. I never really thought that its a big deal and LVG is just being an ass about getting left footed left side center defender, but your explanation is fantastic as usual. Well I would take the suggestion and move the naturally right footed Maldini to right side. so now we have left footed left CB and right footed right CB. LVG would've been proud.
@Physiocrat if you would be so kind to update the OP.
I think it was excellent during his time at Inter, truely great. He could receive the ball under pressure and bring his teammates into play or dribble no matter who was trying to defend him. A forward more dominant in the air would offer a bit more in that regard or better he'd offer additionally something different, but we don't really plan to kick longballs forward all the time, so I don't see that as a problem.
Is that really true?
He asked to be subbed off and there was never a reason given why. Effenberg in his (kinda controversial book,he's a massive cnut as well after all) called him out on it and it does fit to Matthäus' personality in my opinion. He definitely wasn't injured, played 120 minutes in the cup final the following week. And the cup final was a lot more demanding on our defense. We controled the game against United quite comfortably and weren't really tested all that much at the back while the cup final against Bremen was more open.
I highly doubt someone as experienced as him at that stage would leave the pitch 'just' to get an applause, with a one goal lead. Maybe it fits into your perception of him but that's a pretty big accusation of unprofessionalism for a man who got your country a wc and was the reason as you said for Bayern being in control of that game. I get it that you don't like the man, but that's going a bit too far, in my opinion.
Precisely, I wouldn't really take his word as bible either, but I'd react the same way if someone told me Effenberg went out in a CL final to get an applause. No one, really, no one would do that, not with a one goal lead.
It really wasn't. We were all mighty angry when he came off during the game (we all being the 10 or so friends I watched the game with). It made zero sense.
I really wouldn't rule it out.
I'd rule it out even with far bigger actual 'cnuts' of the game, you and anto have really overblown this whatever negative aspect of his personality you have in your mind. If he was that big an idiot he wouldn't have done half the things he did in his career. You really are making him sound a lot worse than he was, especially in professional terms on the pitch. Coming off for an applause risking the CL trophy with a goal lead? Really? That's what I'd expect from someone completely braindead and self absorbed, and even then it would be far fetched. So I really more or less refuse to believe that he did it solely to have people clap his performance, that just makes no sense if you look at the player in question.
And I'm not even a huge fan of him, you'd rarely see me picking him, in fact I don't think I've ever taken him. But little respect for the man's achievements, please.What the feck?How many examples could you give in which he played his heart out for the team for 90 minutes, as compared to this which you are highlighting? Not only was that game at the very end of a very long career, it's just one, where he was subbed or rather asked for it according to you (is this even confirmed or are we reading Effenberg's opinion on this?) as compared to loads where he pretty much drove his team to a win. Is it a fair reflection of his abilities both technical and mental to highlight that moment as opposed to the one where he was lifting the World Cup trophy or the one where Maradona called him his most difficult opponent? I'd be more convinced if you bring up some important games where his abilities were countered well than some assumptions on why he called for sub in that one game, honestly. I brought this up earlier and have done so before, the downplaying of Matthaus has gone too far. Either it has something to do with his playing role which isn't the greatest for him and if that's not it, it's his arrogance and what not. It was fine initially when you wanted him not to be taken as some superpower against other great midfielders but that has long, long gone and since he has been pretty much downplayed one way or another in every draft. He's one of the greatest midfielders ever, and has proven himself time and again at the biggest of stages. And given the fact that he's pretty much setup to be at his best in this game, there's very little you can fault with his influence on this game. But that doesn't mean you start slinging mud.
It shouldn't detract from his overall career of course or his impact for Germany and Inter during his peak in the late 80's and early 90's. I have countless times admitted that he's the best box to box player of all time and deserves praise to no end. I didn't even deliberately downplay him at any point either, I remember defending and praising him quite a bit for the league win against Sacchi's Milan side with Inter in 1989 in one of the draft games not too long ago (I think it was the manager draft in one of the Trappatoni vs Capello games in a discussion about Matthäus/Gullit/Rijkaard, but not 100% sure).
No not at all, I know you are the last person who cares about the draft results, but everytime Lothar's name comes up and I'm talking about previous instants over the course of our time here, there's always remarks about his arrogance and what not, and this time you went a bit far, in my opinion of course, in accusing that CL final applause thing. And again, not for the game, but for your usual anti-Matthaus bias, I'm sorry to call it bias and I rarely use that term but that is what it comes across. I understand that there are some bitter memories and he's no saint but there are more important things about him to talk about. It's the same with Keane and United fans, sure he has said some idiotic stuff recently and has personal problems with his squad and managers in his career but that takes absolutely nothing away from his influence on his pitch and the responsibility that he took for the team. Exactly the same with Matthaus. Off the pitch problems - how are they relevant in a fantasy match? We are not asking for Matthaus to live together with these players, he is playing a football match here. And again, you go overboard in describing his attitude, like hes some sort of problem child? His attitude is a pretty small detail and I never felt it was a big problem in his playing career as compared to players who let their attitude get the better of them. Saying 'he was a great player' as a sidenote and going on an on about incidents without actual evidence (talking about him coming off for an applause) is simply downplaying him, and there's been a habit of doing that with him. His attitude problems are hardly different from the likes of what Maradona, Cruyff etc gave, one would say they were far bigger drama queens, but no one would focus on that instead of what they bring to the team unless they have an agenda against them. At least that's what I've felt as a reader over the years, and of course I can only comment on that. You may love the man to bits in real and have his picture besides your bed, but you've been always harsh on him here, no doubt.
I've done that before, it's not really something new. And as I showed, it's not some idiocy I came up with. Teammates like Scholl publicly made similar accusations in interviews directly after the game.
Unless you think he's likely to do something similar here, which is force a substitution to get an applause, which clearly is something I believe most would refuse to accept as a likely outcome of this match up.
It's one thing saying he's best used there, and another saying he becomes irrelevant anywhere but that. Like Gio said in the other game where Zico is being used as a false 9, we have to look at the qualities and skill set to determine the outcome. And, a box-to-box midfielder in a setup like the current one still has PLENTY of license to attack - that's the whole reason he has another man back there covering for him. I completely agree at that criticism when he's playing as a sole defensive midfielder and that way he won't be able to influence the game the way he did at his peak but in a role such as the current one for example, you are kidding yourself if you think he'll just be a supporting midfielder here. And it is pretty damn close to that Ballon D'or winning role - the formations may not be similar but that Inter team was massively defensive and I really disagree if you are saying one needs to go THAT defensive to bring out Matthaus' best, he's such a complete player, one of the most complete players ever to play the game and maybe he'll take a shot or two less here than he did there, but that doesn't make him irrelevant to the game, he's still at the heart of it and would be a major obstacle for the opponent. And most of the time similar players are afforded way more tactical flexibility over here in these games, which is another reason Matthaus being singled out stands out - and in a fantasy game you can't always expect to recreate the EXACT same setup in which a player won a Ballon D'or even if he has a skill set to excel in other setups? I really find it hard to believe that you need to put two more defensive minded midfielders behind Matthaus to bring out that Ballon D'or level of performance, it's like we are talking of some lazy ass no.10 who doesn't put a foot in defense and not Lothar Matthaus.
That he came off to get an applause and nothing else? Really?
I never did that, not once. It was always a "it's not his best role, but he's still fecking brilliant" comment. I've never had anything but praise for his actual performance level on the pitch, sensational player on his good days and still a freaking amazing player on his bad days. He was always consistent, always worked hard for the team on the pitch. I actually often mentioned that even in his libero role at Bayern he was a sensational player worthy of getting picked, just no one wants to admit it. Most of the time it was people using him as a mainly defensive player but claiming they get his peak at Inter and Germany '90. You won't find many arguments from me when he's used as a regular box to box player anyway.
Well Scholl basically said he's a coward and again shied away from responsibility like he always does. Feel free to use that interpretation if you think it's any better
.There are a lot of things one might interpret that to before even thinking that it was just for an applause. What the hell is Scholl on about? Weren't you comfortable in the game at that point against a United side missing their entire central midfield? Like I said, the result is making people make these comments, and perhaps some previous bad blood coming out. There's little evidence from the game and the moment he was subbed at itself to lend any support to that really baseless accusation. Honestly, Balu, it's one of the most outrageous things I've heard over here.Well Scholl basically said he's a coward and again shied away from responsibility like he always does. Feel free to use that interpretation if you think it's any better
That's my point. Fair enough he played next to two defensive midfielders in that team but he really doesn't need to. And what in particular do you think he gained by having two instead of one behind him that he will completely lose here? Even in an attacking sense he has enough cover specially with Di Stefano being as defensively astute as he was to allow him the freedom he needs. I don't think there's a better player to play in front of him in a 4-2-3-1 than Di Stefano, who allows him more freedom than any other number 10 would. Maybe Ruud Gullit. Moreover, do you think it was his attacking influence that made the difference and got him that Ballon D'or, and not his midfield responsibilities? And coming up against Maradona in a WC final, for example? When talking about that peak performance level, you need to think of what were the primary attributes that made him such a great opponent, and how high is the attacking output in it?
If you are talking in terms of personalities then that is all conjecture, no one can predict how Matthaus and Di Stefano will gel. And like you said in an all time draft that will happen in every team. And I welcome managers who try and test such combinations and give us food for thought, than recreating what everyone has already seen. For my money, Matthaus and Di Stefano, in terms of style of play, is a cracking combination and both should be able to compliment each other perfectly, as both have the required tools going forward or backwards and will cover the crucial areas of midfield between them very effectively.
Now, let's not get carried away in the other direction. First of all, a lot of people were accused of failure in those final minutes, but none of them takes part in this game. And 2nd, saying Matthäus kept them in front for 80 minutes is highly unfair for a team filled with many inferior individuals who played a sensational match despite missing their best attacker (Elber) and their best defender (Lizarazu).
Sorry for going off topic but are we having our game today? Would prefer it today than tomorrow to be honest, have a meeting tomorrow.
That's an odd comment, obviously I can have an opinion on it and make a predicition. That's all these games are based on.
That's Joga's call - at the moment we haven't got anything prepared and he's pulling it together.
Then why so much hoopla over him going off, when there were others who were playing sensationally? Why would he even get an applause if he wasn't one of the better players on the pitch? You can't have it both ways!
I'm not interested in guessing that either, but you came up with that really silly accusation. Call it a bad decision on his side, but there's a limit.
Why haven't you voted in this game?
As you've said in the context of this draft they're a good match (obviously in an ideal set-up he'd replicate Italia '90). Matthaus was never really about the playmaking and even in the late 1980s was criticised for not being that midfield dictator to take on Schuster's mantle. He was a different beast and would dovetail quite nicely with Di Stefano.
Discussion shits on voting.
What the feck are you on about. Obviously it was supposed to be his crowning achievement of the past 10 years, overcoming serious injures that should have ended his career, playing on a crazy high level in his late 30's and finally winning the one big trophy he was still missing after losing in the European Cup final before. It wasn't just one game, it would have been the crowning achievement of his career next to the World Cup, winning the CL for Bayern 25 years after our first win. Of course he was one of the better players on the pitch, that doesn't contradict anything I wrote.
Honestly, and as you said as well, this is an all time draft. Everyone is 'sharing' something. Both Ronaldo and Eusebio loved to pick up the ball and run at the defense at pace for 30-40 yards, so they have to share that here, assuming you are using a young Ronaldo, the one who formed an impeccable partnership with a proper number 9 like Ronaldo and not a creative forward like Eusebio. We have seen great players put in the same team and fall apart, or become greater than the sum.
Ok, I haven't finished the write up either so if we are starting today then I'll complete it, else I'll wait till tomorrow. Can do it now, as you can see I'm online with a bit of time.
I think that really really changed through Trappatoni who had a massive influence on Matthäus and changed his attacking game a lot for the better. Pre '88 Matthäus wasn't fit to lace Schuster's boots in terms of playmaking, but it was very different after that in my opinion. And he showed it throughout the 90's when he became more and more a deep lying playmaker with a wonderful passing range.
To your knowledge. And if it is only him who knows the reason, then shut this discussion right now rather go forward based on guesses. An 80th minute sub in a CL final with a 1-0 lead against a team playing half as well as they would and generally being second best throughout the game can have SO MANY more reasons than the ones you are hell bent on suggesting. The least you can do is be a bit open about it and think of it from a more footballing point of view than a personal one. And if he really was THAT fussed about winning this, than like Gio said, he would've finished the job he was doing for 80 minutes. Obviously he still cared, him going off doesn't imply the opposite.
Really? You can't think of any other credible reasons? I've already mentioned one.
I honestly have no idea why you blew my short 3 lines totally out of proportion in the first place. Nothing about that comment was aimed at discrediting his quality as a player or his fit to Tuppet's team.
Nope. I'd understand it if Hitzfeld decided to sub him off for tactical reasons, though I would clearly call it a mistake. I don't see any credible (or better acceptable) reason other than an injury why Matthäus wanted to go off the pitch himself, even though the manager wanted him to continue playing.
Well, those are two different things. Let's talk more about this game - Di Stefano can be the playmaker, dictating terms and the flow of the game and Matthaus would use his passing ability and range under that dictation. That is what you'd see happening 99/100 times in such a setup. Di Stefano is far better than Matthaus to decide when to increase the tempo or play down the flanks or any such decisions a playmaker needs to make and Matthaus can get alone with that pretty easily. Throughout the 90s- he got older and more defensive and matured in his thought process making him a more 'creative' passer, which is pretty normal and we see that in loads of players though the player in question here is more the all action peak Matthaus who was still not a polished passer but still might strong in that department and ideal for someone to conduct the technical side and him fitting into that. Of course, you can now argue that he will never follow anyone's instructions and play his own game, which is a little boring as it can be argued for almost every team here.
But why is Hitzfeld allowed to make a tactical mistake and not Matthaus? He may not be injured but still not feeling 100% and maybe felt that fresh legs would be better to see this game than him getting physically outplayed? Or anything else really. It's such a normal thing to happen, why is there so much backlash and everyone treating him like he was the one to throw it away when he wasn't even on the pitch when your defense shat itself on those two corners. If anything, you were right on top till he was on the pitch. Instead of getting appreciated for doing that against a very unpredictable team, specially in that year's UCL, he's being made a villain for coming off at the end due to reasons still unknown. Amazing.
Matthäus was already 29 at the World Cup in 1990. I don't think he matured at all afterwards. It's really the torn ACL early in '92 which played a role in his further career. His move to Juve fell through because of it, Bayern brought him back when everyone doubted he could become an excellent player again. He accepted his physical limitations after his long injury breaks and adjusted his game to it. He didn't really get better on the ball in my opinion, he just used his passing differently because of the different position he played in.
