Bernard - Brazilian Wonderkid

I wonder how many are helping the poor kids and how many are purely taking advantage of their predicament. I am unaware of the club system in Brazil but don't clubs have youth academies like at European clubs?

Based on little knowledge, I think these greedy agents and third parties are providing the basics to their families in order for them to take charge of these young kids fates. Then they take them for a ride for the rest of their careers. Sell them to the highest bidder in an auction, with these players having very little say in choosing a club of their liking. In a normal world, the likes of James Rodriguez, Hulk, Falcao etc. would not sign for the clubs they have signed if not for these shady deals.
 
Oh, the cnuts are exploiting them alright but then again the players may have nothing to be exploited if they didn't fund/support them. Capitalism is a steaming pile of shit basically.
 
It's more to do with red tape and rampant corruption in third world countries than capitalism. It should be the state's responsibility to nurture talent in your national sport and protect the interest of young kids.
 
I agree its the situation being exploited, but the kids/families dont care if they go on to become a professional footballer and help their family out. When the third parties eventually make a lot of money on it, at least part of that makes up for the money they spend trying to support young players who dont go on to make it. So for those who havent made it, they were supported financially and were given the chance for their dream of playing professionally to come true, and the third party loses money on it on that occasion. So they are constantly taking chances, but they only really get talked about when one of the players eventually makes a big transfer
 
We could head for CE but that's capitalist rapaciousness in a nutshell. All these kids should have a route to exploit their talent without some cnut taking a piece of their arse.
 
Oh, the cnuts are exploiting them alright but then again the players may have nothing to be exploited if they didn't fund/support them. Capitalism is a steaming pile of shit basically.

Out of curiosity, what's better?

Socialism?
Communism?
Feudalism?
 
Out of curiosity, what's better?

Socialism?
Communism?
Feudalism?


Just because one thing is shit doesnt mean there is a better option.


You know. Its pretty shit to get a strechted ligament. Still a broken bone is worse ,)
 
I wonder how many are helping the poor kids and how many are purely taking advantage of their predicament. I am unaware of the club system in Brazil but don't clubs have youth academies like at European clubs?

Based on little knowledge, I think these greedy agents and third parties are providing the basics to their families in order for them to take charge of these young kids fates. Then they take them for a ride for the rest of their careers. Sell them to the highest bidder in an auction, with these players having very little say in choosing a club of their liking. In a normal world, the likes of James Rodriguez, Hulk, Falcao etc. would not sign for the clubs they have signed if not for these shady deals.

And what exactly has that to do with 3rd party ownership?
 
I wonder how many are helping the poor kids and how many are purely taking advantage of their predicament. I am unaware of the club system in Brazil but don't clubs have youth academies like at European clubs?

Based on little knowledge, I think these greedy agents and third parties are providing the basics to their families in order for them to take charge of these young kids fates. Then they take them for a ride for the rest of their careers. Sell them to the highest bidder in an auction, with these players having very little say in choosing a club of their liking. In a normal world, the likes of James Rodriguez, Hulk, Falcao etc. would not sign for the clubs they have signed if not for these shady deals.

I don't think that this is entirely accurate. Falcao had ridiculous wages paid when he played for Atletico, wages that the third parties paid to him. He got a lot of benefit from them for many years, it's not like the evil third parties are exploiting young players. Both sides are winning a shitload amount of money.
 
I don't know - playing the Arse card doesn't make you less of a cnut when push comes to shove (and like comes to love).
 
I don't think that this is entirely accurate. Falcao had ridiculous wages paid when he played for Atletico, wages that the third parties paid to him. He got a lot of benefit from them for many years, it's not like the evil third parties are exploiting young players. Both sides are winning a shitload amount of money.


I don't like this idea of future contracts with underlying as human beings. If you think of it, there is something very wrong with the entire concept.

You mention that Falcao was paid ridiculous wages but those wages would have been any big club he would have signed for. I don't think the 3rd party ownership did him any undue favors.
 
I don't like this idea of future contracts with underlying as human beings. If you think of it, there is something very wrong with the entire concept.

You mention that Falcao was paid ridiculous wages but those wages would have been any big club he would have signed for. I don't think the 3rd party ownership did him any undue favors.

A big club probably wouldn't have sign him at that time. I read that the majority of wages at Atletico was paid by the third party (and he got wages around 10m for year).
 
A big club probably wouldn't have sign him at that time. I read that the majority of wages at Atletico was paid by the third party (and he got wages around 10m for year).


Not at Porto, right? I remember there was widespread interest in him before he left Porto for A.Madrid.

Anyways, it is not about one particular player. Like I mentioned, I am not comfortable with the entire concept. Human beings shouldn't be part owned by different parties or allowed to be traded to the highest bidder to protect the investors interest.
 
I don't like the concept too, but in the end it benefits both parties. No-one forced Falcao or other players to be 'owned' by third parties. They can choose the difficult road but they chose that willingly.
 
I don't like the concept too, but in the end it benefits both parties. No-one forced Falcao or other players to be 'owned' by third parties. They can choose the difficult road but they chose that willingly.
Not sure about that, the 3rd parties have access to clubs sewn up - if you don't play ball you don't play football.
 
Not sure about that, the 3rd parties have access to clubs sewn up - if you don't play ball you don't play football.

I don't think that. Players in South America chose to go with third parties cause the money is good and the road to success is much faster. Of course that after they spend millions (or at times tens of millions) they want to get their money (and more money) back from that players, but I don't think that the only road for those kids is to go with third parties. There have been many successful ones doing it the hard way.
 
They pry on the most vulnerable. These guys may not have as much choice as you think.

The developing world is on a whole different planet than the developed west. You have live there to fully grasp it.
 
Not at Porto, right? I remember there was widespread interest in him before he left Porto for A.Madrid.

Anyways, it is not about one particular player. Like I mentioned, I am not comfortable with the entire concept. Human beings shouldn't be part owned by different parties or allowed to be traded to the highest bidder to protect the investors interest.

Any club will sell to the highest bidder, unless there is a particular reason not to do so (such as not wanting to sell to a rival club). I don't see how that is remotely related to the third party. Instead of a club owning the players rights, it's a club + investors. The club itself is an investor anyway.

There are a few shady quirks relating to third-parties and they could probably do with some regulation, but many of the things you're moaning about are related to the fact that football is a multi-billion business and not specifically with third parties. Your complaint of the clubs to wich Hulk, James and Falcao were sold, for example... Only Falcao had third parties involved, the others went to sugar-daddy clubs.

Are you also against clubs being able to dictate were players can go? Should Manchester United be forced to allow Rooney to go to Chelsea (if he wanted to)?
 
He gave an interview today and talked about his future challenges - new city, new club, new language - :(

Also rumours that his agent is in London, along with rumours that is agent is not his agent and that his agent is in Brasil. Sod it. Am not so sure he's coming here anymore.
 
All things considered he would be wise to move to Porto, as they have the best record with developing and introducing young South American talent into Europe.

I have not watched him play so I truly can't comment on how I feel he would adapt to the PL. But his size alone suggests he may struggle, especially at first. Personally I would much prefer us to be targeting physical wingers with pace, ala Draxler - but beggars cannot be choosers, and if this kid is as talented as people are making out then it will be a good signing, one to get excited about.

I've read that Shakhtar are another team that's targeting him, although I've also read that the Brazilian NT coach had said he doesn't watch the Ukranian League. So I guess that rules him out from moving there?
 
I'm not really sure Archie, I'm just echoing what I read in the Porto forums. Some ITK's have almost confirmed he's ours, but they've done it a while ago, and it's hard to believe it was set in stone then and not confirmed yet. So some negotiations are likely still ocurring in the background, and until they're over it's hard to say what will happen.

That interview I mentioned earlier was awfully misquoted in the first source, he wasn't talking about his future, he was answering to a question regarding an hypothetical transfer to Shakthar and what it would entice. He was very evasive about anything more factual. So yeah, if we were on the verge before, then there is no reason to think that has changed, I just think it's taking too long. That said it's a complex transfer, that requires an agreement between several parties with different goals. I'm speculating here, but it seems Atlético Mineiro would prefer more money now (Arsenal/Shakthar), BMG would want more money in the future (Porto), the player would probably prefer the best league (Arsenal) but is unlikely to stall a deal with any of them if it's presented as the only alternative to staying in Brasil.

His topic is a bit dead at the moment though, our attentions are turned to the increasingly high probability of losing Jackson Martinez. I think he's one of the best strikers in Europe and quite underrated (or rather, unnoticed) outside Portugal. He's a complete and consistent player with a tendency for making the spectacular happening every once in a while. If he indeed goes to Napoli I reckon a couple of years down the line a lot of better clubs will be questioning why they didn't went for him sooner. It would be a severe blow as a fan to lose Moutinho, James and Martínez in the same transfer window, not matter how much money comes in return :( People handling the club finances might be happy - and rightly so, since this is a business model - but as a fan I never get used to it.

No matter how good the likes of Quintero, Herrera, or a Martínez replacement eventually become, it's hard to believe they will settle quickly enough to make us look as strong as before. Martínez was an exception in how quickly he settled.
 
Have you seen him play Archie. Let's not get out hopes up though...

I've only seen bits and pieces like most people, obviously very talented, I don't agree he'd walk into our starting XI though, being 20 years old and tiny and only having played in Brazil. But at this point I'll take anything really.:(

Incidentally, if you need a buyer for Martinez, Arruda, we'll take him.
 
Any club will sell to the highest bidder, unless there is a particular reason not to do so (such as not wanting to sell to a rival club). I don't see how that is remotely related to the third party. Instead of a club owning the players rights, it's a club + investors. The club itself is an investor anyway.

There are a few shady quirks relating to third-parties and they could probably do with some regulation, but many of the things you're moaning about are related to the fact that football is a multi-billion business and not specifically with third parties. Your complaint of the clubs to wich Hulk, James and Falcao were sold, for example... Only Falcao had third parties involved, the others went to sugar-daddy clubs.

Are you also against clubs being able to dictate were players can go? Should Manchester United be forced to allow Rooney to go to Chelsea (if he wanted to)?


Clubs get into employment contracts with players. It is not the same as owning them as in case of third party deals.

Clubs look to sell to the highest bidder but not against the wishes of the player. Players have the final say in where they want to ply their trade next. A club cannot force them to except a deal against the their will. Are you really thick to not grasp the difference between third party ownership and employment contracts? Animals are owned, humans should not.

Manchester United should not be forced to sell Rooney, as Rooney signed an employment contract with Manchester United. We do not own Rooney, however he is contractually obliged to play with us for another two seasons. If Chelsea want him and he wants to play for them, they should pay an amount (or part deal) which is acceptable to United. Otherwise he should shut up and honor his contract.
 
Clubs get into employment contracts with players. It is not the same as owning them as in case of third party deals.

Clubs look to sell to the highest bidder but not against the wishes of the player. Players have the final say in where they want to ply their trade next. A club cannot force them to except a deal against the their will. Are you really thick to not grasp the difference between third party ownership and employment contracts? Animals are owned, humans should not.

Manchester United should not be forced to sell Rooney, as Rooney signed an employment contract with Manchester United. We do not own Rooney, however he is contractually obliged to play with us for another two seasons. If Chelsea want him and he wants to play for them, they should pay an amount (or part deal) which is acceptable to United. Otherwise he should shut up and honor his contract.
You're the one sprouting random ignorance in these matters, as your comment regarding the transfers of Hulk and James showed, so keep the thick comments to yourself. Where the hell do you come up with the idea that funds allocate players against their wishes? There's no way this can be true or would ever be allowed by the governing bodies, or even by common law. That's pretty smart of you, making up random stuff to sustain random arguments.

You're also the one who decided that clubs have an employment contract with players yet funds "own" them, a weird way of differentiating things that are roughly similar in principle. They don't own the players any more than clubs do, and "own" is an expression used by fans /media/etc to simplify what is a complex contract. Are you also against clubs loaning people, like if it's some sort of merchandise? Funds share a part of a player's economic rights, this concept exists whether it's solely the club owning it, or sharing it with an investment fund.

I reckon funds can present a myriad of problems, there's no doubt about that. I'm talking about real problems though, not the shit you're making up. And most of these problems are towards clubs who become too dependent on them, not players. Players are as limited by funds as they are by clubs, and it's all a volunteer choice on their part. It must be unpleasant to Bernard to not be able to directly chose the club of his preference, but it's the same limitation as if he was "owned" by a club alone. He can always keep plying his trade for the time predicted in his contract, which he voluntarily signed, and that pays him a pretty decent wage. This contract will then expire and he will be free from both club and fund and patiently chose whichever club in the world is willing to sign him. Oh, but wait, it seems he doesn't want to fulfill his end of the deal, he wants to come to Europe. Poor guy.

Funnily enough, with the absence of mandatory release clauses, players have even less of a margin to decide their future in England (where funds are banned) than in the likes of Portugal - where they aren't. Look at Gareth Bale and tell me which options he has available to him right now which don't necessitate his employer's agreement?
 
Meanwhile, some time has passed.

Read about a big interview on which he stated he was supposed to be travelling to Donetsk today, spend there a week in that industrial hole, to see if he was willing to live there with his family. His father seems to want him to come to Porto, citing one of the main reasons the unlikelihood they will be able to eat proper rice & beans in Ukraine.

Yet now he seems to be in a hotel in London (http://instagram.com/p/cq2ZbZvUCO/#). Arsenal back on track? Tottenham looking at him as a replacement to Bale?

Is this Hilton Park a posh place?
 
Speaking to Radio Itatiaia, Atletico president Alexandre Kalil said: "Tottenham made an offer of €18million (£15.7m) for Bernard, but they withdrew.
"Arsenal told us that they would bid, but never did. So what we have now is a €25m (£21.8m) bid from Shakhtar."

:lol: Sums them up.