Bebe | 2010/11 Performances

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Pogue Mahone said:
Is there any young player, anywhere in Europe, who isn't linked with the likes of Real Madrid when he first starts to impress?

If we were to snap up every 20 year old that suddenly gets linked with a move to Madrid, we'd be signing dozens of kids every summer.
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The strange thing on this story is not that he was linked with Real Madrid though, is it? It's that United bought him, and paid highly for that. I wouldn't expect United to sign every player on the same situation hence I said that at worse (as I know I'm just speculating) it was just one mistake in a club that rarely commits them.

And I don't understand how some people on this thread compare the doubt on Bébé with the doubt on Nani or Cristiano Ronaldo. These two were first-team players at Sporting, on of Portugal's top 3 clubs, and had shown a lot of high-class football before bing signed, and after they were signed before reaching consistency. Bebé did neither and only played a season in Portuguese second division.
 
Erictheking7 said:
Very good point. Its happened almost every time we make wholesale changes.
The up and coming players need to have experienced heads around them to help them progress. When they are all thrown in together it just makes for frustrating performances.
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I agree, I think he's done that a bit too frequently in the last few years.
 
What? We put out a very experienced side. O'Shea and Brown were solid at centre back. Carrick, Anderson and Gibson was a strong midfield and should have been a good enough platform for Obertan and Bebe.
 
Arruda said:
The strange thing on this story is not that he was linked with Real Madrid though, is it? It's that United bought him, and paid highly for that. I wouldn't expect United to sign every player on the same situation hence I said that at worse (as I know I'm just speculating) it was just one mistake in a club that rarely commits them.
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I know you're speculating. I just don't buy speculation that we would suddenly sign someone purely on the basis of Real Madrid being linked to him in the press. That might be enough to get our scouts along to have a look at him but not enough to put a bid in.

And I don't understand how some people on this thread compare the doubt on Bébé with the doubt on Nani or Cristiano Ronaldo. These two were first-team players at Sporting, on of Portugal's top 3 clubs, and had shown a lot of high-class football before bing signed, and after they were signed before reaching consistency. Bebé did neither and only played a season in Portuguese second division.
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I don't understand that either. Apart from anything else, the comparison is unfair on Bebe.
 
redpie said:
What? We put out a very experienced side. O'Shea and Brown were solid at centre back. Carrick, Anderson and Gibson was a strong midfield and should have been a good enough platform for Obertan and Bebe.
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Aye, today was only really the front 3 that applied to.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I know you're speculating. I just don't buy speculation that we would suddenly sign someone purely on the basis of Real Madrid being linked to him in the press. That might be enough to get our scouts along to have a look at him but not enough to put a bid in.
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What do you put the signing down to then Pogue? How can you possibly explain it? Have you seen anything in the player to justify it yet?
 
I simply find it impossible to believe that we've been duped by some posturing from an agent and don't have people amongst SAF and his staff who know a half decent footballer when they see one and so are just playing him in games because they were told he was good. :confused:

I think the Tosic saga showed that if Fergie is not convinced by a player then he won't get a look in, no matter what the deal was or what the agent says.
 
redpie said:
What? We put out a very experienced side. O'Shea and Brown were solid at centre back. Carrick, Anderson and Gibson was a strong midfield and should have been a good enough platform for Obertan and Bebe.
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It's not about a strong platform. It's about experience playing alongside one another. It always happens in games like this. We play like a bunch of blokes who've never started a game together because that's, more or less, what they are.

I can see the logic in it - especially with a big European game coming up - but it's almost always a recipe for a poor performance.

I'd rather we play all our reserves together than this weird mix of first and reserve team players. At least they would play like a team.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I put it down to a scout who Fergie obviously trusts highly seeing the raw materials for a quality footballer. Can't see it myself but I'd be a terrible scout.
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I'm sure Fergie trusts many of his scouts very highly, but it doesn't mean he doesn't then vet the player himself first. Why the haste on this occasion? Does he look a special talent that neccesitated that to you?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's not about a strong platform. It's about experience playing alongside one another. It always happens in games like this. We play like a bunch of blokes who've never started a game together because that's, more or less, what they are.

I can see the logic in it - especially with a big European game coming up - but it's almost always a recipe for a poor performance.

I'd rather we play all our reserves together than this weird mix of first and reserve team players. At least they would play like a team.
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We're heading OT now but we both did agree on this in the pre-match Matchday Thread comments.

Bebe and Obertan are taking all the flack for this evening's performance but if tonight had been the first time I'd ever seen Rooney, I wouldn't have even rated him at £8million! :)

It's not fair on the players when Fergie makes such wholesale changes to the team. It literally is XI players who will have only played together on the training pitch but they're expected to click immediately come the big match.

Squad rotation is fine and necessary but I think any more than 3 or 4 changes in consecutive games and you're starting to push it a bit. I believe there were 10 changes tonight from the team that started our last match.

Two of the most inexperienced and perhaps most lacking in confidence players are taking all the stick...
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
I think the Tosic saga showed that if Fergie is not convinced by a player then he won't get a look in, no matter what the deal was or what the agent says.
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Tosic was here for a year though. I'm sure SAF will give Bebe atleast that much. We'll see where he is in 6 months.
 
Have to wonder if the links between Jorge Mendes and Carlos Queiroz (and a few United transfers) are above board.
 
Do we have a name for the scout who suppossed to have flagged Bebe up?
There is some assumption that Queiroz had a say but I think that is just probably lazy journalism.
 
I can understand that a scout had a look at him. I don't get it that they thought it was a good idea to pay that clause so swiftly though. Hence why I think they took the Real threat seriously, as stupid as that sounds.

Those clauses are just a protective measure clubs put on in case the player develops real talent. It's not meant to represent their actual value. I've seen Guimarães sell rather good and established footballers and they never go for more than 2 or 3 million. What could possibly Bébé have showed in a single pre-season that made him being valued so highly. I'm pretty sure if he was any good that a club like Porto or Benfica would have waved 3 millions to Guimarães at the end of the season and got him on a heartbeat. That's such a huge income for them that a club of that dimension is unable to refuse such an offer, specially with the dire financial situation of our clubs.

To me it's as astonishing as if when Porto put a 100 million clause on Hulk someone came waving it towards us, when they would easily take him with 40 in a beat and something like 30-35 with some negotiating. It's just a measure to protect the clubs from unwanted leaves, they're not meant to represent the players value, at least not nowadays.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
Two of the most inexperienced and perhaps most lacking in confidence players are taking all the stick...
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The two who performed the most absolutely abysmal, as opposed to just poor - and who have never shown any great indication that they're able or will be able to play at this level (for United, rather than against Crawley) - are having their ability and potential debated, yes

What's wrong with that?
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
We're heading OT now but we both did agree on this in the pre-match Matchday Thread comments.

Bebe and Obertan are taking all the flack for this evening's performance but if tonight had been the first time I'd ever seen Rooney, I wouldn't have even rated him at £8million! :)

It's not fair on the players when Fergie makes such wholesale changes to the team. It literally is XI players who will have only played together on the training pitch but they're expected to click immediately come the big match.

Squad rotation is fine and necessary but I think any more than 3 or 4 changes in consecutive games and you're starting to push it a bit. I believe there were 10 changes tonight from the team that started our last match.

Two of the most inexperienced and perhaps most lacking in confidence players are taking all the stick...
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One of the only things I rate Mourinho for was his insistence in playing reasonably strong teams in matches like this. Even in the dead rubber CL group matches and domestic cup matches against lower teams he'd play strong teams in order to 'preserve a winning mentality'. Personally, I don't think SAF should tinker so much in these games. He could field a nucleus of first teamers and include a few fringe players who would greatly benefit from being part of a successful United lineup
 
I also see no reason for Queiroz to know Bébé. People value his knowledge of Portuguese football too highly, he probably heard about him at the same time as everyone of us and just said what he would say about any player on the same situation.
 
Red Defence said:
I wouldn't worry too much....we've got some pretty alert legal folk working for us.
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It's just that...when I see Mourinho publicly asking Real Madrid to renew Pepé's contract, when both men are Mendes' clients, it kinda bothers me...as it does when I look at the Real squad, which contains quite a few Mendes guys.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
Tosic was here for a year though. I'm sure SAF will give Bebe atleast that much. We'll see where he is in 6 months.
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The point I'm making (admittedly not very well there) is that if we were duped into signing Bebe and, when we got him, we realised that he's a long way from "the next big thing" then Fergie wouldn't be playing him. Full stop.

Fergie IS playing him and he must be playing him for a reason and the only reason I can think of is that he knows the lad has potential and he knows what the lad has shown on the training pitch.

I think tonight was his first proper game since November.

Again, we would normally be cutting a player a bit of slack for this fact alone... "Needs to get his match fitness back, needs a few games under his belt" etc etc

With Bebe, he gets sporadic appearances and never lines up with even five of the same players twice yet he's expected to do something out of the ordinary in every one of those appearances in order for the fans to say, "Yeah, I can see why we signed him" otherwise he's shit.

I think a bit of faith is required here. In Fergie we trust and all that.

In the meantime, get off the lad's back... he could be on the verge of making one of the most romantic footballing stories in footballing history and he'll do it in a United shirt!
 
Arruda said:
I also see no reason for Queiroz to know Bébé. People value his knowledge of Portuguese football too highly, he probably heard about him at the same time as everyone of us and just said what he would say about any player on the same situation.
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So basically, Bebe was signed as a complete blind purchase? I very much doubt it. Someone has seen potential ad that someone's opinion is clearly values by SAF. I don't know if Bebe will make it. But I do have faith in the staff of our club to invest time and money on developing players they consider to be worth it
 
SAF has persevered with some rubbish over time. A lot of them are in some obscure leagues or not playing football for a living.
 
Crustanoid said:
So basically, Bebe was signed as a complete blind purchase? I very much doubt it. Someone has seen potential ad that someone's opinion is clearly values by SAF. I don't know if Bebe will make it. But I do have faith in the staff of our club to invest time and money on developing players they consider to be worth it
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Could this trust not be betrayed for a few Million?
 
Crustanoid said:
So basically, Bebe was signed as a complete blind purchase? I very much doubt it. Someone has seen potential ad that someone's opinion is clearly values by SAF. I don't know if Bebe will make it. But I do have faith in the staff of our club to invest time and money on developing players they consider to be worth it
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That's a logic assumption of yours and possibly the truth.

I'm not much of a conspiracy theory guy, this is my exception, just a hunch, maybe I just believe it because it's a funny thing to believe in for a non-United fan.

I see a lot of unexplainable transfers in Portuguese football for what it's worth. Ever since agents became heavily involved in transfers and considering their very dodgy connections with people with high responsibilities at clubs, such as managers, presidents, directors... I don't expect this to be the norm at a club so well managed such as United but it doesn't mean you're immune to being screwed every now and again.
 
FFS... can people get off this scout conspiracy thing!? Fergie might OK a signing on the say-so of a scout but he wouldn't actually play a sub-standard player on the say-so of anyone but himself.

Far more likely is that the scout in question would have his arse dragged over the coals and be pointed in the direction of the dole queue.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
FFS... can people get off this scout conspiracy thing!? Fergie might OK a signing on the say-so of a scout but he wouldn't actually play a sub-standard player on the say-so of anyone but himself.

Far more likely is that the scout in question would have his arse dragged over the coals and be pointed in the direction of the dole queue.
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I hardly think being suspicious of a certain signing is a conspiracy. We're talking football, I'd say it's normal everyday business to rip clubs off.

Bebe must be sub-standard he has hardly played; when played, he's looked out of his depth against mediocrity.
 
Sultan said:
I hardly think being suspicious of a certain signing is a conspiracy. We're talking football, I'd say it's normal everyday business to rip clubs off.

Bebe must be sub-standard he has hardly played him, and when played, he's looked out of his depth against mediocrity.
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Not every "sub-standard" signing has to be down to a conspiracy to rip the club off.

It's very early to decide Bebe is definitely "sub-standard", for all sorts of reasons. Not least the fact he's only starte two first team games.
 
Sultan said:
I hardly think being suspicious of a certain signing is a conspiracy. We're talking football, I'd say it's normal everyday business to rip clubs off.

Bebe must be sub-standard he has hardly played him, and when played, he's looked out of his depth against mediocrity.
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The point I am making is that even if we were ripped off, do you not think Fergie would have noticed by now and would be playing Bebe if he thought this to be the case?

For gawd's sake, give Fergie some credit!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Not every "sub-standard" signing has to be down to a conspiracy to rip the club off.

It's very early to decide Bebe is definitely "sub-standard", for all sorts of reasons. Not least the fact he's only starte two first team games.
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When he is played you say SAF must've seen something in training. If SAF has seen something in Bebe why has he been only played in two games against teams we're easily expected to win?
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
The point I am making is that even if we were ripped off, do you not think Fergie would have noticed by now and would be playing Bebe if he thought this to be the case?

For gawd's sake, give Fergie some credit!
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He has started in two game, against a division one team, and today against Crawley. I think that shows SAF don't have much faith in his ability just yet.

In both games he has looked out of his depth.
 
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