Who's talking about Busby? I said Ferguson.
BBC: United hold talks with Mourinho
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Who's talking about Busby? I said Ferguson.
You are seemingly implying that Fergie misjudged Pogba's talent. Which is simply untrue.
Certain players perform better in different team set-ups and surroundings. There are no guarantees to say the players you mentioned would have blossomed at their previous clubs had they stayed.
Pogba's talent was clear to see even for a novice fan, never mind Sir Alex. There were other factors why Pogba moved on from United.
It might have, sure. But the fact remains that they had 5 managers in the last 10 years, and have been very successful with all of them bar one.
Which tells quite well that keeping a manager forever isn't the only way to success. As I said, clubs more successful than us haven't had a period when they kept their manager for long (for a lot of different reasons), so saying that stability brings success is a bit misguided when it comes to football.
There must be some continuity for a club to achieve lasting success. Whether it is by having a dominant manager like Ferguson, a top class well run academy like Barca and Ajax or copious amounts of cash like Real.
Arguably Madrid have underperformed in recent years given the financial advantage they have and the itchy trigger finger of the president has contributed to this.
Exactly. Though I would argue that a younger Ferguson would've put in Pogba in the first team at the age of 17. He got more cautious when he got old.
Saf was the arrogant outsider back in 86
No it doesn't. For ever Pogba, there's KdB, Lukaku etc. Both of them are better players than Pogba right now.
No, they aren't. Not even close.
And well, there are other top players that Fergie let them leave like Pique and Rossi.
I'm glad he let Pique leave, because the only way he was staying is if he prematurely split Rio and Vidic up
They're. The cult of Pogba is pretty annoying, he's very young and hugely talented but whenever I've seen him play, he gives balls in dangerous situations and doesn't dictate enough matches. People here judge him on YouTube compilations.
Rossi had Rooney, Ronaldo, Saha ahead of him. Pique had Vida/Rio. It's easy to look smart and say that he let them go, but a peak Pique is not better than Rio/Vida and only a moron would've broken the Rio/Vida partnership for him. Same goes for Rossi.
They got split in the following season, and since Pique left he was better than Ferdinand in every season and better than Vidic in most of them.
Booooooooooooooo!
And no, they are not.
And Lukaku had Diego Costa, while KdB had Hazard, Oscar and Mata (although he left a week or two later) ahead of him in the pecking order, so as you said, it is easy to look smart and say that Mourinho left them leave.
Pique has been one of the best - if not definitely the best - CB in the world since he went to Barca. There isn't much difference between peak Pique and peak Rio/Vidic.
Saha was always injured and Rooney and Ronaldo played in different positions so Rossi could have been the first back up player.
However, my point for this cases is that it is easy for a manager to let a promising youngster leave when the manager has better options, like Mourinho with KdB and Lukaku or Fergie with Pique and Rossi. Pogba's case is a bit special though (and thus gets mentioned more) because we were genuinely awful in that position. Cleverley was first choice, Jones was played there regularly, Park occasionally and Rafael once, but Pogba never did get a start there.
If we had a Scholes in his peak there, then Pogba would have been similar to the other players I mentioned, but we had Tom fecking Cleverley there.[/quote][/QUOTE]
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I'd say you're very wrong here, but let's agree to disagree. Fergie dropped a ball w.r.t to Pogba, but my original point is that every manager has one of these.
So to have kept Pique, Fergie would have realistically had to have dropped either Rio or Vidic at least a year before Pique left in 2008, so in 2007 - when they were easily the worlds best centre back pairing at the time and possibly ever. All when Pique was a raw young unproven talent.
Fergie would have been crazy to have done that
I'm sorry but to suggest selling Pique was a mistake is utter nonsense. Pique moving back to Barcelona to be first choice centre back was a move Fergie could not deny him. He could either be first choice for his boyhood team or on the bench at United. The Barca defence he joined was terrible and he wasn't good enough for United's first team at the time. His defensive style was perfectly suited to Barcelona, just like Vidic's was to United.
If United had replaced Vidic with Pique they would have won a lot less silverware. Along with Ronaldo, Vidic was the most influential player in that United side. You could also say Barca may have been less successful with Vidic as he was worse on the ball and would get less opportunity to actually defend and use his aerial power. It was the right move for all parties at the time.
If Pique was at United under LVG he may have had a great United career. Sometimes timing is everything.
I didn't read the whole post but peak Pique is still far below peak Rio. Pique does not have Rio's pace for starters and Rio's reading of the game in his prime was well above Pique's. And before you or anyone points about him being a mainstay of this Barca ream, Mascherano is a CB for this team. Says all you need to know about how dominant Barca's frontline is.
I find that very hard to agree with. Maybe from 2010 or 2011 onwards, when Rio and Vidic were starting to show signs of declining.
Completely agree with you on Pique. When we let him go, he was a young and upcoming player but nowhere near good enough to replace Rio or Vida. In fact it would have been stupid to break up their partnership for Pique as I don't think either Rio or Vidic would have worked as well with Pique. Pique just didn't compliment either if them too well. Vida and Pique would have been too slow together while Rio and Pique would not have worked as we would have missed Vidic's tenacity and his ability to completely dominate aerial duels and physical ones.
In fact, Evans showed more than Pique when both were given chances in our first team. It is purely hindsight which is causing some to say Pique should have been kept.
I have my concerns about Mourinho being the next United manager too but there's been one hell of revisionism by some posters in the last few pages. I can fully understand why some people would prefer a manager who would respect the club's traditions and try to teach expansive football that would be pleasing to the eye no matter the result after the 90 minutes. But in Mourinho's case i guess it's how the saying goes, "it's better to lose an eye than to lose your reputation".
Some forget that Chelsea, as a football club, were shaped by Mourinho. It's true that Abramovic's cash was always flowing but, at the end of the day, it was money well spent. During his first spell there he created a backbone that consisted of Cech, Terry, Essien (first it was Makelele), Lampard and Drogba. All five of them are considered Chelsea legends and all of them owe their entire careers to Mourinho. In fact, that Chelsea side continued to be successful even after Jose was sacked for the first time. These five players led Chelsea to a CL final, to brake a few PL records under Ancelotti and finally win the big one in 2012. Furthermore, Chelsea went on appointing managers and signing players who would help them continue with the brand of football Mourinho implemented.
I also keep hearing about his time at Madrid and the state in which he left the club. First of all, i believe it's ridiculous to judge him for winning La Liga only once when he had to compete with what is considered by many people as the best team in the history of football. He broke Real's record for total points in the league twice and he finished with more than a hundred goals p/s thrice. People choose to remember only Pepe in the midfield against Barcelona but the truth is that he developed a few players there too. For example, Ramos became a world class CB under Mourinho and Di Maria flourished in the midfield (kind of) free role that allowed Ronaldo to play more often inside the box. And he left the team in such a bad state that they went on to win the CL in the following season.
As for Inter, they became the architects of their own demise the moment they appointed Rafa Benitez to continue Mourinho's work. I also believe that Mourinho receives very little credit for what he achieved there. They were considered a team of absolute losers and Mourinho changed their whole personality as a club, he transformed them into winners. Go ask Moyes, LvG or even Wenger if that's an easy task. He also showed tactical flexibility there (used the diamond, the 4-2-3-1 and the more flat 4-4-1-1), he was one of the last managers that gave a pivotal role to a classic #10 (Snejder) and had some other briliant ideas too, like Zanetti in the midfield.
Nowadays a "short term fix" is more or less determined by the actions of the board since there aren't many managers out there willing to spend a decade or more under the same roof. Bayern Munich reached the top of the world under Heynckes. Afterwards, they decided to change direction and the appointed the best man for the job in Pep. Now, they're about to bring in Ancelotti, who is known for taking the best out the squad you give him, to manage this amalgam of traditional German and Spanish possession football that Pep is going to leave behind. That's longevity for you, right there.
The biggest concern about Mourinho at the moment is that he's still trying to find the right balance between his philosophy and the changes in the modern game since the dominance of expansive possession football. Mourinho rose to fame as the best manager in the world when football was quite different. Back then defending with ten men behind the ball, leaving possession to the opponent and try to hit on the counter was the norm for most successful clubs world wide. Ferguson made it to two consecutive CL finals and Wenger had his best season in Europe when they changed their approach. Ancelotti's brilliant tactical decision to play Pirlo in front of the back four worked because of that too.
But ever since Pep's Barcelona football has changed again and it's heading towards a different direction. Catenaccio is long dead (at least for the near future) and Mourinho already knows that. During the last few seasons he's toned it down a bit: mostly one DM on the pitch, the lines a bit higher, attempts to press in the midfield and other little details which show that he's trying to find a working solution. Not in big games, where he still feels that his old tricks will do the job, but in the majority of the other games. And the fact that he fecked it up big time at Chelsea is indeed a big concern since he's going to inherit a rather problematic squad at United. But let's just not try to rewrite history.
Some forget that Chelsea, as a football club, were shaped by Mourinho. It's true that Abramovic's cash was always flowing but, at the end of the day, it was money well spent. During his first spell there he created a backbone that consisted of Cech, Terry, Essien (first it was Makelele), Lampard and Drogba. All five of them are considered Chelsea legends and all of them owe their entire careers to Mourinho. In fact, that Chelsea side continued to be successful even after Jose was sacked for the first time. These five players led Chelsea to a CL final, to brake a few PL records under Ancelotti and finally win the big one in 2012. Furthermore, Chelsea went on appointing managers and signing players who would help them continue with the brand of football Mourinho implemented.
I also keep hearing about his time at Madrid and the state in which he left the club. First of all, i believe it's ridiculous to judge him for winning La Liga only once when he had to compete with what is considered by many people as the best team in the history of football. He broke Real's record for total points in the league twice and he finished with more than a hundred goals p/s thrice. People choose to remember only Pepe in the midfield against Barcelona but the truth is that he developed a few players there too. For example, Ramos became a world class CB under Mourinho and Di Maria flourished in the midfield (kind of) free role that allowed Ronaldo to play more often inside the box. And he left the team in such a bad state that they went on to win the CL in the following season.
As for Inter, they became the architects of their own demise the moment they appointed Rafa Benitez to continue Mourinho's work. I also believe that Mourinho receives very little credit for what he achieved there. They were considered a team of absolute losers and Mourinho changed their whole personality as a club, he transformed them into winners. Go ask Moyes, LvG or even Wenger if that's an easy task. He also showed tactical flexibility there (used the diamond, the 4-2-3-1 and the more flat 4-4-1-1), he was one of the last managers that gave a pivotal role to a classic #10 (Snejder) and had some other briliant ideas too, like Zanetti in the midfield.
Nowadays a "short term fix" is more or less determined by the actions of the board since there aren't many managers out there willing to spend a decade or more under the same roof. Bayern Munich reached the top of the world under Heynckes. Afterwards, they decided to change direction and the appointed the best man for the job in Pep. Now, they're about to bring in Ancelotti, who is known for taking the best out the squad you give him, to manage this amalgam of traditional German and Spanish possession football that Pep is going to leave behind. That's longevity for you, right there.
The biggest concern about Mourinho at the moment is that he's still trying to find the right balance between his philosophy and the changes in the modern game since the dominance of expansive possession football. Mourinho rose to fame as the best manager in the world when football was quite different. Back then defending with ten men behind the ball, leaving possession to the opponent and try to hit on the counter was the norm for most successful clubs world wide. Ferguson made it to two consecutive CL finals and Wenger had his best season in Europe when they changed their approach. Ancelotti's brilliant tactical decision to play Pirlo in front of the back four worked because of that too.
But ever since Pep's Barcelona football has changed again and it's heading towards a different direction. Catenaccio is long dead (at least for the near future) and Mourinho already knows that. During the last few seasons he's toned it down a bit: mostly one DM on the pitch, the lines a bit higher, attempts to press in the midfield and other little details which show that he's trying to find a working solution. Not in big games, where he still feels that his old tricks will do the job, but in the majority of the other games. And the fact that he fecked it up big time at Chelsea is indeed a big concern since he's going to inherit a rather problematic squad at United. But let's just not try to rewrite history.
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Definitely not as much as you considering the shite you have spouted here defending LVG, his methods and the "foundations" he is supposed to be laying for the next managers to come.
Jose didn't sign Cech or Robben
The foundations that other players and managers talk about and you telling me that players like Xavi talking about Qatar determines the fact someone like you knows more about in depth football than him.
Yup. I'm deluded.
SAF almost certainly would have given Pogba first team playing time had he not been half-arsing the reserves.
Admitting it is a start.
The thing with pogba is fergie didn't want to lose him. Yes there was a feck up in how he was managed but he left the club and Utd were powerless to stop it
Whereas Jose actually wanted rid of KDB and Lukaku
Whereas Jose actually wanted rid of KDB and Lukaku
That may have been the case, but he didn't exactly do a great job of showing he wanted Pogba to stay either, did he?
Fabio, Gibson, O'Shea, Rafael.
Like I said there was a feck up
His attitude was obviously a problem and Fergie tried to manage him in an old fashioned way and probably didn't think it would end like it did.
You can tell the situation was a sore point and I'm sure one he regrets
Really? KDB changes more matches for the better than Pogba imo. I agree on Lukaku, but to say KDB isn't close to the level of Pogba is wrong.
OK, take the Cantona situation when he was banned. Let's be honest he should have been booted out by the club, his actions were defenceless but that WAS a clear case of a footballers talent dictating to Fergie what happens next. No question about it. To say Fergie was never dictated to or capable of being dictated to is absolute nonsense.
Just like Cantona, Pogbas obvious talent should have over ridden any show of petulance from the player. Remember too that Pogba was a kid and kids can and do display immaturity. Cantona was an experienced professional, what was his excuse ?
Are you seriously suggesting that a Pogba yet to earn a spot in the first team deserved similar leeway to Eric fecking Cantona?
Anomalous treatment from a manager like SAF is earned, not demanded.
Players don't talk crap about a manager who gave them a chance. You think there aren't players who have had a falling out with LVG? Great players at that. Why don't you dig up their quotes?
Also, giving youngsters a chance is not the same as laying foundations. If that was the case, it is the youth team coaches and scouts who should be given all the credit.
As for his style, it is perhaps the worst I have seen from any top team in recent years (even his stint ar Bayern they were a team who relied massively on Robben rather than a team goal). It is not that we are defensively strong and try and defend 1-0 leads with calm heads and ability to keep the ball - something I would understand - it is that we are quite shite at everything at present and there is no frickin direction to us now.
We cannot really press, we crumble the moment we are pressed, we find it difficult to come back in matches, we cannot even defend a lead properly (we basically start kicking the ball upfield without even trying to hold on to it, some philosophy of ball retention that), and our squad is still in need of some real surgery despite that deluded fool spending a quarter of a billion pounds on new acquisitions.
The only question for me is to decide who of the two of you deserves to take the trophy of the most clueless person this year.
The idea that Ferguson didn't recognise Pogba's talents is ridiculous. He replaced Scholes in his own testimonial ffs
Duff was already there too. In some way's Mourinho stifled his exciting, attacking wing play to turn him into a work horse too. Similar happened with Joe Cole.
And then he started 0 times in the following season. I think that at the very best case, Fergie completely underrated Pogba's talent.
Pogba was above the reserve matches, as he proved 2 months after his transfer to Juventus. In fact, there isn't a clear relation between performing in reserves/U21 with how good a player becomes.
I might agree with most of this. And everything you said for Pique can be said for Lukaku. Just replace Rio's name with Costa.
Pique, Rossi, Lukaku and KdB were mistakes from the manager, but completely something that yo can understand considering that both clubs had better players in their positions. While they would have been useful subs, it was next to impossible for them to start.
Pogba is completely different. We were screaming for a good player, or at least a competent player in that position, but he was not getting a chance for some reasons known only to Fergie.
Mourinho stiffled nothing, young Robben was a selfish and infuriating player, he matured at Bayern.
Talent wasn't the issue.
Anyway this has been done to death and is going miles off topic.
Sudden bump on the thread and thought something must have happened, no all about Pogba
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