BBC: United hold talks with Mourinho

Would you be happy to see Jose Mourinho become next United manager?

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JohnnyKills said:
To be fair, LVG has introduced some of the best players of recent times so he must have something about him when it comes to developing young players. But, as you say, it's very hit and miss. The anecdote about him preferring Thomas Kraft over Manuel Neuer suggests that, for every bit of genius he provides, he does something bafflingly bonkers by way of counterweight.
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He's worked at Barcelona and Bayern who have the best youth set up around. Giving debuts to lots of youngster he was bound to get some right. There's a lot more to players development than giving him a debut and he can hardly have a case for most of the players he's been given credit for.

He's given so many debuts at United that it's inevitable his fanatics will brag about this if any of these players go on to become good. However his policy is extremely strange, he gives you debut and then ditches you a few games afterwards for a new toy. He also absolutely despises possibly the biggest talent of our youth setup (Pereira) because it makes him cool (unusual decision, like bringing Powell on against Wolfsburg - he likes those, it makes him look like a genius - or bringing a right back to chase after a goal).
 
Sarni said:
He's worked at Barcelona and Bayern who have the best youth set up around. Giving debuts to lots of youngster he was bound to get some right. There's a lot more to players development than giving him a debut and he can hardly have a case for most of the players he's been given credit for.
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Exactly it's not like finding a world star at Accrington Stanley.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Do we really believe that Fergie actually recommended Moyes as his No.1 choice above all others?

Yes that's the official line from the club but they wouldn't have said anything else, would they? The 'chosen one' line suited everyone when Moyes was appointed. It made Moyes look credible, Fergie look like the godfather and United look as though they'd hired this clown through choice rather than necessity.

In his latest book Fergie rowed back from the chosen one line, saying Moyes had been hired because everyone else had already been chosen. That claim rings far truer to me. Even if Fergie did recommend Moyes, he may well have done so when it emerged that no-one else was available - which isn't the same thing as saying Moyes was the No.1 choice from day one.
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I'm not saying that Moyes was SAF's #1 choice but he should spare me the story of everyone else had been taken and Moysie the only one available.

If a club of the seize of United and a manager with the qualities of SAF hadn't planned for getting at least a decent manager lined-up for the post-Fergie era, it would be one of the most unprofessional handling of football business matters.
 
Crossie said:
I'm not saying that Moyes was SAF's #1 choice but he should spare me the story of everyone else had been taken and Moysie the only one available.

If a club of the seize of United and a manager with the qualities of SAF hadn't planned for getting at least a decent manager lined-up for the post-Fergie era, it would be one of the most unprofessional handling of football business matters.
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It wouldn't be the first time United have handled a managerial appointment badly.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Memories? Yet the way the club is having to be rebuilt, nothing else, which is desperately sad. Also what is LvG leaving behind? A complete and utter mess.
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People always point out he won the league in his last season, but to me what that showed was he could get blood out of a stone, his man management and understanding of the PL and the squad management needed to win it is unparalleled to the point he could take a fairly ordinary side and win the league comfortably. Our club had one man in charge of everything and was bent to his will, it made us a juggernaut and insular, we avoided the disruptive turmoil of other clubs and we were seemingly built on solid foundations.

As soon as he retired the averageness of the squad was exposed and we've been scrambling to rebuild ever since, sadly using cack handed wally's instead of a craftsman. when Pep took over Barca and Bayern respectively he was building onto a class squad, good foundations to continue, and those club's hierarchy were all settled into their roles so all he had to do was coach and put his team together, here the manager coming in didn't have the support network within the club because we didn't have one as Fergie never needed it.

LvG needs to go but we need more than just another managerial appointment, our club model is out of date and no one man can fix this mess, there is no other Fergie out there.
 
JohnnyKills said:
To be fair, LVG has introduced some of the best players of recent times so he must have something about him when it comes to developing young players. But, as you say, it's very hit and miss. The anecdote about him preferring Thomas Kraft over Manuel Neuer suggests that, for every bit of genius he provides, he does something bafflingly bonkers by way of counterweight.
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Similarly he wasn't "convinced" on David De Gea when he first took the job. The two undisputed best goalkeepers in the world right now, at one point unconvincing through LvG's utterly skewed, inexplicable vision.

Everything he has publicly criticised in Herrera and Schweinsteiger (among others) in recent times, players like Rooney and Fellaini seem to repeatedly do with little to no criticism.

The man is a mystery. An enigma.
 
Devil may care said:
People always point out he won the league in his last season, but to me what that showed was he could get blood out of a stone, his man management and understanding of the PL and the squad management needed to win it is unparalleled to the point he could take a fairly ordinary side and win the league comfortably. Our club had one man in charge of everything and was bent to his will, it made us a juggernaut and insular, we avoided the disruptive turmoil of other clubs and we were seemingly built on solid foundations.

As soon as he retired the averageness of the squad was exposed and we've been scrambling to rebuild ever since, sadly using cack handed wally's instead of a craftsman. when Pep took over Barca and Bayern respectively he was building onto a class squad, good foundations to continue, and those club's hierarchy were all settled into their roles so all he had to do was coach and put his team together, here the manager coming in didn't have the support network within the club because we didn't have one as Fergie never needed it.

LvG needs to go but we need more than just another managerial appointment, our club model is out of date and no one man can fix this mess, there is no other Fergie out there.
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100 % agree. That's the key in my opinion.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
It wouldn't be the first time United have handled a managerial appointment badly.
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I wouldn't connect an appointment made in 2013 to ones made 40 years previously. Different people.

It's possible Moyes wasn't or even fourth choice. But he shouldn't been any choice at all. If the senior names were not available and we were looking for someone without experience at big clubs, we should have looked for someone with fresher ideas.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
It wouldn't be the first time United have handled a managerial appointment badly.
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Do I have too big expectations that a club of the seize and stance of United should have learned from mistakes?

I'm not saying that I expect the smoothest transition ever, or that United should have had Pep lined up. But it is really, really baffling that you ended up with a 6-year contract with David Moyes.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
Similarly he wasn't "convinced" on David De Gea when he first took the job. The two undisputed best goalkeepers in the world right now, at one point unconvincing through LvG's utterly skewed, inexplicable vision.

Everything he has publicly criticised in Herrera and Schweinsteiger (among others) in recent times, players like Rooney and Fellaini seem to repeatedly do with little to no criticism.

The man is a mystery. An enigma.
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The words you are looking for are 'egomaniac' and 'insane'.
 
Crossie said:
Do I have too big expectations that a club of the seize and stance of United should have learned from mistakes?

I'm not saying that I expect the smoothest transition ever, or that United should have had Pep lined up. But it is really, really baffling that you ended up with a 6-year contract with David Moyes.
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I think what happened was that Gill left along with Fergie and we had a complete novice (in terms of footballing matters) in Woody take charge. That was the first and biggest blunder in the transition. One of the two - Fergie or Gill - should have stayed on for a year more to ensure the baton was passed on without so much turmoil.

Mind you, I don't begrudge either Gill or Fergie leaving when they did. It is just that it left us in a completely unknown territory with people who were very inexperienced.
 
Crossie said:
Do I have too big expectations that a club of the seize and stance of United should have learned from mistakes?

I'm not saying that I expect the smoothest transition ever, or that United should have had Pep lined up. But it is really, really baffling that you ended up with a 6-year contract with David Moyes.
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History does repeat itself. You see it in major events in the world, so no reason mere football would be any different.

Luckily for us, we have a massive history, huge fanbase, huge worldwide appeal, and tonnes of cash.
It makes the recovery a little easier than for most other clubs.
 
Sandikan said:
History does repeat itself. You see it in major events in the world, so no reason mere football would be any different.
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I don't know if it's about football, more like the situation. When you've got one man in charge for so long it becomes 'his role', almost 'his club', and maybe it's almost impossible to move forward without bumps.

I know there have been occasions when it did happen, Liverpool after Shankly for instance. But football has probably changed a whole lot more from 1986 to 2013 than it did between 1959 to 1974.
 
Sandikan said:
History does repeat itself. You see it in major events in the world, so no reason mere football would be any different.

Luckily for us, we have a massive history, huge fanbase, huge worldwide appeal, and tonnes of cash.
It makes the recovery a little easier than for most other clubs.
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Only if we make the right decisions from hereon in. Otherwise we could be throwing money away left right and centre on paying off managers, new managers and a constantly changing squad and getting nowhere.
 
Amir said:
I don't know if it's about football, more like the situation. When you've got one man in charge for so long it becomes 'his role', almost 'his club', and maybe it's almost impossible to move forward without bumps.

I know there have been occasions when it did happen, Liverpool after Shankly for instance. But football has probably changed a whole lot more from 1986 to 2013 than it did between 1959 to 1974.
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The transistion after Shankley ran smoothly with Paisley and then Fagin. Dalglish after that was working until the tragedy at Hilsborough. Then it started to unravel.
 
Amir said:
I wouldn't connect an appointment made in 2013 to ones made 40 years previously. Different people.

It's possible Moyes wasn't or even fourth choice. But he shouldn't been any choice at all. If the senior names were not available and we were looking for someone without experience at big clubs, we should have looked for someone with fresher ideas.
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This is so true and this time, like it was three years ago, our lack of vision has left us with just two options - Giggs and Mourinho but anyone else wouldn't be so limited. It's like the rest of Europe does not have young managers whose ideas resonate with where we, as a club, want to be. Obviously we want youth to play an important part in our future and there is credible evidence to suggest that Mourinho doesn't have time for them whilst it's difficult to know what Giggs is exactly about so it's astounding that we clearly haven't seriously explored a third candidate.
When we appointed Moyes we didn't put too much stock on his football ideas but looked at vague attributes that didn't come in handy when it came to him building his side. Now we are looking at the titles Mourinho has won but other than that, plus a big ego, he looks and feels like a poor fit for us if we look at it objectively without being influenced by the desperation of our situation. Can we honestly say that it's a case of Mourinho or Giggs with no one in between?
I say this because I refused to believe that Moyes would have been so high on our list so as ti be next in line after Ancelotti, Pep and Jose. It's not possible that Moyes was the fourth/fifth best available choice in world football. Like @Crossie is saying the club is not doing it's homework on this issue, not enough thought is being put in the process hence the disasters that are befalling us.
 
Crossie said:
I'm not saying that Moyes was SAF's #1 choice but he should spare me the story of everyone else had been taken and Moysie the only one available.

If a club of the seize of United and a manager with the qualities of SAF hadn't planned for getting at least a decent manager lined-up for the post-Fergie era, it would be one of the most unprofessional handling of football business matters.
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Have we seen anything in the past three years to suggest United's board is professional in its approach to football?

The hiring of Moyes, the firing of Moyes, the repeated pursuits of unattainable targets, the decline of the academy... I won't go on because we all know the story.

It seems United's board became complacent under Ferguson and just assumed United were too big to fail. Instead of concentrating on perpetuating the on-pitch success they focused on squeezing out every last drop of revenue and milking the club's brand.

Hence why we ended up with Moyes and are in such a mess right now.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Have we seen anything in the past three years to suggest United's board is professional in its approach to football?

The hiring of Moyes, the firing of Moyes, the repeated pursuits of unattainable targets, the decline of the academy... I won't go on because we all know the story.

It seems United's board became complacent under Ferguson and just assumed United were too big to fail. Instead of concentrating on perpetuating the on-pitch success they focused on squeezing out every last drop of revenue and milking the club's brand.

Hence why we ended up with Moyes and are in such a mess right now.
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Which shouldn't be shocking considering that Van Looney is the mist senior football professional employed full time by the club. Fergie used to be the one mapping our football strategy whilst taking care of the small matter of winning trophies but its not feasible to expect anyone to simply fill that role so we have to restructure. The football side is the engine that drives the commercial jaggarnaut that interests the Glazers so hopefully this imbalance will be addressed at board level.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Have we seen anything in the past three years to suggest United's board is professional in its approach to football?
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You bought Martial. :drool: And you were interested in Gündogan. Apart from that however, I'm pretty much with you. And I think you've nailed it with this sentence:

JohnnyKills said:
It seems United's board became complacent under Ferguson and just assumed United were too big to fail.
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There's hardly any other diagnosis possible. Somebody above wrote that football has changed drastically between 1986 and 2014. I think that's an understatement. It changed most drastically within the last 4-5 years, I'd say, and United seems to not have fully grasped how fast the environment was changing.
 
itso 7 said:
When we appointed Moyes we didn't put too much stock on his football ideas but looked at vague attributes that didn't come in handy when it came to him building his side. Now we are looking at the titles Mourinho has won but other than that, plus a big ego, he looks and feels like a poor fit for us if we look at it objectively without being influenced by the desperation of our situation. Can we honestly say that it's a case of Mourinho or Giggs with no one in between?.
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Of course there are always other options. And while it's possible the club is actually working on other names, I doubt it because we don't have the people for it. We have the traditionalists who'll be looking at the likes of Giggs, and we have Woodward who surely doesn't have the knowledge to pick up a quality manager for whom United will be a step up. He'll be looking at the obvious names, like Van Gaal previously or Mourinho now.

That's why the changes needed don't start and end with a new manager. We need another layer of football people. It doesn't have to be a director football like some other clubs have, who makes decisions about buying and selling without asking the coach. But we do need people with other ideas, fresh ideas.
 
Amir said:
Of course there are always other options. And while it's possible the club is actually working on other names, I doubt it because we don't have the people for it. We have the traditionalists who'll be looking at the likes of Giggs, and we have Woodward who surely doesn't have the knowledge to pick up a quality manager for whom United will be a step up. He'll be looking at the obvious names, like Van Gaal previously or Mourinho now.

That's why the changes needed don't start and end with a new manager. We need another layer of football people. It doesn't have to be a director football like some other clubs have, who makes decisions about buying and selling without asking the coach. But we do need people with other ideas, fresh ideas.
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Except there is no tradition of it.
 
Amir said:
Of course there are always other options. And while it's possible the club is actually working on other names, I doubt it because we don't have the people for it. We have the traditionalists who'll be looking at the likes of Giggs, and we have Woodward who surely doesn't have the knowledge to pick up a quality manager for whom United will be a step up. He'll be looking at the obvious names, like Van Gaal previously or Mourinho now.

That's why the changes needed don't start and end with a new manager. We need another layer of football people. It doesn't have to be a director football like some other clubs have, who makes decisions about buying and selling without asking the coach. But we do need people with other ideas, fresh ideas.
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Agreed. I think, as of now, we should have completed the re-structuring of the club's football side because, imo, that should precede the appointment of Van Gaal's successor. Maybe we should change the role of Chief Operating Officer and make a technical role which is occupied by someone who'd normally fill the DOF role and possibly elevate Giggs to assist that man with some fancy title too? By doing so all major football decisions will be done by that triumvert which would include Woodward. The malaise on the pitch has been brought on by the incompetence of those above and if we don't sort it not even Mourinho can save us.
 
itso 7 said:
Agreed. I think, as of now, we should have completed the re-structuring of the club's football side because, imo, that should precede the appointment of Van Gaal's successor.
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The problem is probably, same like with the manager, we don't have the people to suggest that. :lol:

Fergie will say 'naa, the manager should be the only one in charge of football matters', Woodward will ask what a Technical director is and if he works with players on technical abilities, and Giggs will say and do nothing, hoping that he gets the role. ;)
 
Amir said:
The problem is probably, same like with the manager, we don't have the people to suggest that. :lol:

Fergie will say 'naa, the manager should be the only one in charge of football matters', Woodward will ask what a Technical director is and if he works with players on technical abilities, and Giggs will say and do nothing, hoping that he gets the role. ;)
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If Woodward can't think of that or conduct a case study on some of our more successful counterparts then what the hell is he in the job for? If he did any self appraisal and was honest with himself then he'd have noticed a skills gap in himself, the same that was in Gill but he was fortunate enough to work with a legend that alliwed him to ease himself into the role. Failing to make the CL after spending £300m its pretty obvious that its not Van Gaal's failure alone.
 
itso 7 said:
If Woodward can't think of that or conduct a case study on some of our more successful counterparts then what the hell is he in the job for? If he did any self appraisal and was honest with himself then he'd have noticed a skills gap in himself, the same that was in Gill but he was fortunate enough to work with a legend that alliwed him to ease himself into the role. Failing to make the CL after spending £300m its pretty obvious that its not Van Gaal's failure alone.
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Well, let's hope they are learning something and doing something. If the reports about an attempt to sign Atletico Madrid's DOF are true then it's a positive step, at least for trying to bring such a person in.
 
Amir said:
Well, let's hope they are learning something and doing something. If the reports about an attempt to sign Atletico Madrid's DOF are true then it's a positive step, at least for trying to bring such a person in.
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Hopefully it is so because this shambles can't continue, at least for our sanity's sack. When you look at how Juventus have bounced back from relegation and disgrace it's pretty clear that recovery in football doesn't take decades if you are doing the right things consistently, especially bringing in the right people (players and coaches).
 
Sigma said:
So do I, don't understand the hate if i'm being honest.
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He can be a bit of a twat and did act like one a few times this season, and in the past.

But it's better than a clueless manager with no character. I'm a big fan as well.
 

EXCLUSIVE | Mourinho has signed a pre-contract with Manchester United to replace Van Gaal
 
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