BBC: United hold talks with Mourinho

[Brophs]

@Brophs

The aftermath of cleaning up after a top manager isn't going to hard compared to a less experienced one. That is a huge factor in making these appointments. If the board get caught out then they can always say "look, he had the best record. But it didn't work out".Years from now, fans will hail LVG as the guy who had to mop up after Moyes.

On the bolded bit, I agree. It's the basis of recycling these managers. In terms of self-preservation of the people running clubs it's a relatively safe bet.

As to the latter, I suspect it's more likely the next man may be credited with mopping up after LVG. His so called 'overhaul' just seems like a fire sale of players, some of whom went on to do well elsewhere, without improving the squad at all (in fact I'd argue we have a worse squad of players now than in Moyes' time) despite the money spent and the blood letting in terms of outgoing players

 

[SteveJ]

Great post, Brophs.

Whichever manager we end up with, it'll - be once again - the victory of PR over realism and sound decision-making. To me, the club's hierarchy are more interested in bolstering the public image of Manchester United than restoring us to greatness. Whoever they appoint, the club's penchant for establishing a narrative will overshadow the reality.

 

[Adebesi]

Fair enough @Brophs - I agree with a lot of the logic behind your post. The counterargument is look at the last two managers we have had. There are two possible conclusions you can draw from that: 1) A period of instability and underachievement was inevitable, and while it was worse than many of us expected, that says more about our misunderstanding of the level of instability SAF's departure would cause than about the qualities of Moyes or Van Gaal as managers; or 2) You need the very best managers to do well, and at this level, being "nearly" good enough is actually nowhere near good enough.

I think most people have gone with the latter as the explanation of what is going on. And so it is hardly surprising we have a cult of the manager at this club. For others looking at what Mourinho achieved at Chelsea or SAF did at United its hardly surprising they want their own version to replicate that, either.

But maybe people are drawing the wrong conclusions. Maybe the issues at the club are more fundamental and Moyes and Van Gaal were both in an unwinnable situation. And maybe a second tier manager (or lower) would have just as much (or little) chance of reviving us as Mourinho. Time will tell.

I must say, as time goes on I am more convinced I would prefer Pochettino to the alternatives, but I have also made my peace with the idea of Mourinho, which I was not happy about at first.

On another point, the media reporting of it as a two horse race between Giggs and Mourinho is really weird. Mourinho is so many of the things that Giggs is not (at least based upon his apparent ideals and short managerial tenure previously). But then Giggs, based upon his feeling for the club, is likely to have more consideration for its long term health than Mourinho would. Those two, very different managers being the options suggests we don't have a type of manager in mind, but rather that we're being led in directions are almost diametrically opposed. For example, if you found out the shortlist was Klopp, Tuchel, Pochettino etc. you'd have an idea what we were aiming for. As it is, depending on the appointment, the way the club will be immediately run is wildly differently. That doesn't seem sensible to me at all.

On this specifically, maybe its a bit like when you are deliberating what take-out to get, and its between pizza and Chinese. They are nothing alike, but you cant decide between them. In my house at least, we rarely have the same kind of indecision and debate about whether to go with New World or Mr Chow's (New World does better Singapore Noodles but the portions are bigger at Chow's, what are we going to do?) I appreciate this trivialises the decision a bit but the point remains, sometimes it is the very big, important, initial decision that is the hardest to make, once you decide that the rest falls into place. It could be the same here.

 

[Brophs]

Fair enough @Brophs - I agree with a lot of the logic behind your post. The counterargument is look at the last two managers we have had. There are two possible conclusions you can draw from that: 1) A period of instability and underachievement was inevitable, and while it was worse than many of us expected, that says more about our misunderstanding of the level of instability SAF's departure would cause than about the qualities of Moyes or Van Gaal as managers; or 2) You need the very best managers to do well, and at this level, being "nearly" good enough is actually nowhere near good enough.

I think most people have gone with the latter as the explanation of what is going on. And so it is hardly surprising we have a cult of the manager at this club. For others looking at what Mourinho achieved at Chelsea or SAF did at United its hardly surprising they want their own version to replicate that, either.

But maybe people are drawing the wrong conclusions. Maybe the issues at the club are more fundamental and Moyes and Van Gaal were both in an unwinnable situation. And maybe a second tier manager (or lower) would have just as much (or little) chance of reviving us as Mourinho. Time will tell.

I must say, as time goes on I am more convinced I would prefer Pochettino to the alternatives, but I have also made my peace with the idea of Mourinho, which I was not happy about at first.



On this specifically, maybe its a bit like when you are deliberating what take-out to get, and its between pizza and Chinese. They are nothing alike, but you cant decide between them. In my house at least, we rarely have the same kind of indecision and debate about whether to go with New World or Mr Chow's (New World does better Singapore Noodles but the portions are bigger at Chow's, what are we going to do?) I appreciate this trivialises the decision a bit but the point remains, sometimes it is the very big, important, initial decision that is the hardest to make, once you decide that the rest falls into place. It could be the same here.

Yeah, but for me it goes back to my original point: these managers are basically used as sticking plasters to cover the multitude of issues underneath. At the most basic, sporting level, if you sort out the way the club is being run then it makes it an easier job for other managers. It sort of seems like we paint ourselves into these corners and then say "But what can we do? Look at the corner we were in!", all the while ignoring the fact that the 'necessity' was entirely of our own making.

I don't agree that some of these managers are 'nearly good enough' I just think many of them don't get the opportunities to prove themselves to be good enough at the sorts of clubs that afford you an instant reputation.

As to the issues at our club, I have no doubt they're pretty huge. That's why, for all of his failings, I don't think LVG is the main issue. For example, LVG was supposed to be this transformative manager and we spent the first couple of months of his reign begging Mendes for players.

On the last analogy, I get that it's a lighthearted one and not to be taken absolutely seriously, but I'd be very worried if the people who run our club were still at the "Chinese or pizza" stage of their idealistic development. I don't see those as things you tease out on a day-by-day basis. That sort of a lack of vision would be more than troubing. However, I fear it's more that good intentions are falling by the wayside as commercial reality and criticism bites.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

LvG has set this club back years.

No chance. He has made the squad younger even before the injuries so that Is a ridiculous assumption. You will see mourinho's match winning game plan with flashes of possession football already ingrained in to players heads. Enjoy

 

[Adebesi]

As to the issues at our club, I have no doubt they're pretty huge. That's why, for all of his failings, I don't think LVG is the main issue.

So the question then is, if we do get Mourinho (or whoever you think the right manager is) do you think we will continue to underperform next season?

 

[Adebesi]

Oh, and while my take-away analogy was tongue in cheek I also worry it is probably not far from the truth. I dont think there is an coherent strategy or vision, other than "to win stuff" and "to make money". The latter one Woodward has in hand, I think he just wants to find someone who can take care of the first one for him so he doesnt have to think about it anymore. Which is why I expect we will go for Mourinho.

Again, its hard to fit Giggs into that equation but I find it hard to fathom what conversation the board could possibly ever have that leads them to thinking Giggs is the way to go.

 

[Attila]

No chance. He has made the squad younger even before the injuries so that Is a ridiculous assumption. You will see mourinho's match winning game plan with flashes of possession football already ingrained in to players heads. Enjoy

This possession football tends to dissappear as soon as there is a little pressure. He's done a really bad job instilling it

 

[Summit]

No chance. He has made the squad younger even before the injuries so that Is a ridiculous assumption. You will see mourinho's match winning game plan with flashes of possession football already ingrained in to players heads. Enjoy

I couldn't give a toss really in what you think, but if you honestly believe that us finishing outside the CL doesn't set us back a couple of years, then it is you that's being ridiculous.

 

[R'hllor]

Dont understand one thing tho,people are mad at those who making decisions because they didnt sack LvG and appoint JM,right? Saw in some posts here that JM might has some clause about not being able to take PL before end of season,is there such a thing?Can it be true? In that case,would those decision makers have that info and based on that,decided to not pull a trigger? In same time knowing maybe that RG wouldnt like to take over as interim or caretaker till summer?

Is that scenario even possible,in that case,there wouldnt be any other valid option then to stick with LvG,or was there at the time some other name ready to take over till summer?

 

[Rado_N]

No chance. He has made the squad younger even before the injuries so that Is a ridiculous assumption. You will see mourinho's match winning game plan with flashes of possession football already ingrained in to players heads. Enjoy

So getting rid of a bunch of players and making the average age younger outweighs destroying the on-field performance and taking us back out of the CL?

A single season out of the CL is an anomaly, missing it 2 out of 3 years is pathetic. He was tasked with taking over from Moyes and putting us back on course, a task at which he has failed spectacularly and the average age of the squad won't change that.

 

[ravi2]

I couldn't give a toss really in what you think, but if you honestly believe that us finishing outside the CL doesn't set us back a couple of years, then it is you that's being ridiculous.

So getting rid of a bunch of players and making the average age younger outweighs destroying the on-field performance and taking us back out of the CL?

A single season out of the CL is an anomaly, missing it 2 out of 3 years is pathetic. He was tasked with taking over from Moyes and putting us back on course, a task at which he has failed spectacularly and the average age of the squad won't change that.

I genuinely think that poster who lives right up Van Gaal's anus cannot really be a MUFC fan, he's been trolling us for ages and just wants attention.

Either that or he is genuinely stupid and deluded.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

I genuinely think that poster who lives right up Van Gaal's anus cannot really be a MUFC fan, he's been trolling us for ages and just wants attention.

Either that or he is genuinely stupid and deluded.

What makes you the all mighty judge?

Considering the squad that was left by SAF,Moyes - this is the youngest and the best the squad has been in ages. What's even better is the obvious need for improvement in predesignated areas such as RW. It will make the next managers job much easier.

 

[sunama]

This possession football tends to dissappear as soon as there is a little pressure. He's done a really bad job instilling it

This is what I noticed.
If team of players are very comfortable on the ball, when they are under pressure, they should be able to maintain possesion (even if it means passing it between defenders) for 60 seconds. This allows pressure to be relieved and for the momentum to swing back in our favour.
Unfortunately, I have not see this quality in our team.
If our opponent attacks us, we can't hold onto the ball.

My theory is that we are actually not great at possession. The reason why we are able to keep possession is because our opponents allow us to.
This was seen at its most extreme when we played Chelsea last year. We had I think 72% possession and lost the game. Jose later stated that he didn't care if we had 90% possession, implying that they let us keep the ball, as long as we were not a threat.

 

[sunama]

Considering the squad that was left by SAF,Moyes - this is the youngest and the best the squad has been in ages. What's even better is the obvious need for improvement in predesignated areas such as RW. It will make the next managers job much easier.

So you are saying that LVG has taken a lot of abuse (booing and negative opinions from fans), just so he can allow our next manager to get all the glory?
Are you seriously suggesting this?

 

[JPRouve]

No chance. He has made the squad younger even before the injuries so that Is a ridiculous assumption. You will see mourinho's match winning game plan with flashes of possession football already ingrained in to players heads. Enjoy

You are not going to like it but while United had a 23.9 average age in 2014/2015, the average age this year is 25.5 years old. That's the oldest United team of the last decade.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

So you are saying that LVG has taken a lot of abuse (booing and negative opinions from fans), just so he can allow our next manager to get all the glory?
Are you seriously suggesting this?

Our manager is obviously King Louis the Magnanimous. We are so blessed.

 

[Rado_N]

What makes you the all mighty judge?

Considering the squad that was left by SAF,Moyes - this is the youngest and the best the squad has been in ages. What's even better is the obvious need for improvement in predesignated areas such as RW. It will make the next managers job much easier.

So he's failure to address weak areas of the squad is now a quality? Jesus.

This is also not the best the squad has been in ages, it's far too thin in key areas.

 

[markorm]

What makes you the all mighty judge?

Considering the squad that was left by SAF,Moyes - this is the youngest and the best the squad has been in ages. What's even better is the obvious need for improvement in predesignated areas such as RW. It will make the next managers job much easier.

The young team is due to injuries and the refusal for more established players to tell him to feck off when he tries to tell them to play like wooden pegs.

He bought Shweiny, Valdes, Di Maria, Falco. Not exactly Spring chickens.

His other buys. Blind, Rojo, sneidelin, Memphis, not really kids are they.

I'll give you Shaw and Martial, but come on. You can't be beating that drum.

He's playing kids because he's got bigger all options left.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

The young team is due to injuries and the refusal for more established players to tell him to feck off when he tries to tell them to play like wooden pegs.

He bought Shweiny, Valdes, Di Maria, Falco. Not exactly Spring chickens.

His other buys. Blind, Rojo, sneidelin, Memphis, not really kids are they.

I'll give you Shaw and Martial, but come on. You can't be beating that drum.

He's playing kids because he's got bigger all options left.

7 players in their prime ie. 25-30
7 players experienced ie. 30

Over 20 players under 25 - yet to reach a prime.

He sure is targeting the wrong players if he was wanting to win things now. We don't even have a full 11 of players in some sort of prime.

 

[sunama]

He sure is targeting the wrong players if he was wanting to win things now. We don't even have a full 11 of players in some sort of prime.

Oh I agree.
And given this, don't you think he is being foolish?
Or is he doing this on purpose so he can get fired?

 

[Brophs]

So the question then is, if we do get Mourinho (or whoever you think the right manager is) do you think we will continue to underperform next season?

It depends. Firstly, if you take Mourinho, it can be read in two ways. The first is that he's one of the two best managers in the world, so it makes perfect sense, just as it would if someone offered us Ronaldo or Neymar or whoever. You pick an improvement on what you already have and work from there. The second is that, at best, he can win in spite of the structure of the football club. If you bank on that as a strategic plan it'll fail you sooner or later. Particularly if you want him to be something he's not e.g. playing younger players. I think we can all foresee the first spiky interview where he alludes to the fact that he has a bunch of kids whereas other teams have all of these great players. Also, eventually you run into teams that do things better than you and all of the other stuff just sort of evens itself out.

So in that sense, if we give Mourinho enough money and time to get rid of the players he doesn't fancy and build the team he wants then, yeah, I could see us being successful, to whatever extent. But if the foundations were shaky I don't think that would last, nor do I think we won't end up back in the same hole in a few years time. And if we take anything the club have said since the Fergie era at face value, that's not what they want to do.

Oh, and while my take-away analogy was tongue in cheek I also worry it is probably not far from the truth. I dont think there is an coherent strategy or vision, other than "to win stuff" and "to make money". The latter one Woodward has in hand, I think he just wants to find someone who can take care of the first one for him so he doesnt have to think about it anymore. Which is why I expect we will go for Mourinho.

Again, its hard to fit Giggs into that equation but I find it hard to fathom what conversation the board could possibly ever have that leads them to thinking Giggs is the way to go.

Yeah, I suspect that's about right. I think he's in for a rude awakening, though. Everyone has money now. Other teams in England arguably have the same pull as us in the market. It's almost impossible to just bully our way to dominance. Though the new normal probably has it that a CL spot every season is more than acceptable. In that sense I think Mourinho would achieve that.

As to Giggs, I don't really get it. Putting him in charge would have to be done on the basis that you're reverting to the 'family' ethos of the club where you promote from within and knowlegde of and feeling and passion for the club is what's important. Other than that, what does he offer that dozens of other candidates don't?

 

[SteveJ]

what does he offer that dozens of other candidates don't?

Marriage counselling?

 

[Drifter]

Former Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho has revealed that he wants to return to management this summer.

The Portuguese tactician left the Blues in December after overseeing a disastrous start to the club's Premier League title defence.

Mourinho's second spell at Stamford Bridge may have ended in disappointment but his reputation throughout the footballing world remains intact.

The 53-year-old, who has won the Champions League twice during his illustrious career, has been constantly linked with a move to Manchester United during his spell out of the game.

Mourinho has remained tight-lipped on his destination but is adamant he wants to take charge of his next club in time for pre-season.

"I was lucky enough to have good options since I left Chelsea in December," Mourinho said in an exclusive interview with BT Sport.

"I was lucky enough to have not just options - to have good options - but I made the decision to wait, calm, in my corner, not disturbing, just waiting, reading a few lies and listening to a few lies.

"But the reality is that I want to work. Normally in July a new pre-season starts and somewhere - I want to be there," he added.

Mourinho has previously managed Benfica, Uniao de Leiria, Porto, Inter Milan and Real Madrid in addition to his two spells at Chelsea.

 

[B20]

So you are saying that LVG has taken a lot of abuse (booing and negative opinions from fans), just so he can allow our next manager to get all the glory?
Are you seriously suggesting this?

He's practically up there with Jesus. A true martyr.

 

[Honest John]

Mou will be doing 'Seagulls following the trawler' next

 

[JohnnyKills]

7 players in their prime ie. 25-30
7 players experienced ie. 30

Over 20 players under 25 - yet to reach a prime.

He sure is targeting the wrong players if he was wanting to win things now. We don't even have a full 11 of players in some sort of prime.

Apparently we are indeed targeting the players who can win things now (Muller, Bale, Ramos etc) we just can't get them to sign for United. The players he's signed are the best he - or United - can get at the moment it seems.

 

[entropy]

Did anyone see his expression during that interview? Just waiting and waiting

 

[Sigma]

I hope not. We need a clean out of staff. There is clearly something wrong with everyone baring the kit man an GK coach.

The chef is cool too!

 

[JohnnyKills]

It depends. Firstly, if you take Mourinho, it can be read in two ways. The first is that he's one of the two best managers in the world, so it makes perfect sense, just as it would if someone offered us Ronaldo or Neymar or whoever. You pick an improvement on what you already have and work from there. The second is that, at best, he can win in spite of the structure of the football club. If you bank on that as a strategic plan it'll fail you sooner or later. Particularly if you want him to be something he's not e.g. playing younger players. I think we can all foresee the first spiky interview where he alludes to the fact that he has a bunch of kids whereas other teams have all of these great players. Also, eventually you run into teams that do things better than you and all of the other stuff just sort of evens itself out.

So in that sense, if we give Mourinho enough money and time to get rid of the players he doesn't fancy and build the team he wants then, yeah, I could see us being successful, to whatever extent. But if the foundations were shaky I don't think that would last, nor do I think we won't end up back in the same hole in a few years time. And if we take anything the club have said since the Fergie era at face value, that's not what they want to do.


Yeah, I suspect that's about right. I think he's in for a rude awakening, though. Everyone has money now. Other teams in England arguably have the same pull as us in the market. It's almost impossible to just bully our way to dominance. Though the new normal probably has it that a CL spot every season is more than acceptable. In that sense I think Mourinho would achieve that.

As to Giggs, I don't really get it. Putting him in charge would have to be done on the basis that you're reverting to the 'family' ethos of the club where you promote from within and knowlegde of and feeling and passion for the club is what's important. Other than that, what does he offer that dozens of other candidates don't?

Totally agree that the days of domination are gone. I don't actually think we bullied our way to dominance under Ferguson - his net spend over his entire 26-year tenure was only about £8m a year- but we won't be able to hoover up the trophies like we did between 1993 and 2013.

As you say, more clubs have money and/or gleaming new stadiums these days. Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and West Ham all fall into this category, which makes life even harder for the teams outside London. With Everton about to be taken over by an apparently wealthy owner, it looks like being an eight-way scrap for the top four next year (and that's assuming Leicester fall away).

That said, I can't see perennial CL qualification as being satisfactory. Uniteds sponsors aren't paying premium rates for an essentially moderate product. I think success in the new normal constitutes a PL title once every three years. Hopefully Mourinho can deliver that.

 

[Boycott]

I prefer Pochettino but Mourinho would shape the team quickly to get back to competing. We need the first trophy to give this post Ferguson era a jumpstart. It's been £300m of nothing when all is said and done. Maybe we nab the FA Cup this season but Van Gaal doesn't deserve time after. Mourinho will get us on track but after a while his antagonising behaviour and reactionary actions will derail. Why I like Poch is he has a vision and the belief to implement it which suits United (youth, attacking football, excuberance) but he's got the pragmatism to sort a defence. And he improves what he has and makes sharp decisions. Long term he will be a great Utd manager but with a summer kitty I believe he'll get us progressing and work our way back to Europe's elite than merely spending it back.

 

[JohnnyKills]

I prefer Pochettino but Mourinho would shape the team quickly to get back to competing. We need the first trophy to give this post Ferguson era a jumpstart. It's been £300m of nothing when all is said and done. Maybe we nab the FA Cup this season but Van Gaal doesn't deserve time after. Mourinho will get us on track but after a while his antagonising behaviour and reactionary actions will derail. Why I like Poch is he has a vision and the belief to implement it which suits United (youth, attacking football, excuberance) but he's got the pragmatism to sort a defence. And he improves what he has and makes sharp decisions. Long term he will be a great Utd manager but with a summer kitty I believe he'll get us progressing and work our way back to Europe's elite than merely spending it back.

Can't see us getting Pochettino at the moment mate, given Spurs are better than United and will have CL next season. Hopefully he succeeds Mourinho.

 

[Boycott]

Can't see us getting Pochettino at the moment mate, given Spurs are better than United and will have CL next season. Hopefully he succeeds Mourinho.

Probably. Perhaps that is the best route. Mourinho for the usual three years getting us back to competing and winning thus finally moving on without Fergie and then Poch to step in and shape a new dynasty.

Mourinho is essentially that hot girl you have fun with while knowing neither of you are going further than an exciting fling. Then you come to a point where you need to settle and get a lovely homely girl who cares and nurtues for you as your life calls for calm and balance (Pochettino).

 

[JohnnyKills]

Not sure if anyone's interested but today one of the presenters of Radio Marca, Eduardo García, did a reader QnA in which he backed Zidane several times, and said he deserves more time at Real Madrid. At one point he said "there is noone else."

Given Marca's close relationship with RM, maybe this suggests they know Mourinho isn't going there...

 

[Beachryan]

Thing about the situation is that there aren't a bunch of standout candidates today, so having a manager like Mou that might be an issue in 3 years actually gives us time to let young managers get more experience and hopefully some real standouts will emerge.

 

[AltiUn]

Not sure if anyone's interested but today one of the presenters of Radio Marca, Eduardo García, did a reader QnA in which he backed Zidane several times, and said he deserves more time at Real Madrid. At one point he said "there is noone else."

Given Marca's close relationship with RM, maybe this suggests they know Mourinho isn't going there...

Lot of outlets have said for a while he isn't going to Madrid, one went so far as to suggest that he used Madrid to get the United job. But I think Marca would be right anyway that Zidane will be getting time, he's the kind of experiment that if it works he could do wonders for them.

 

[sunama]

Thing about the situation is that there aren't a bunch of standout candidates today, so having a manager like Mou that might be an issue in 3 years actually gives us time to let young managers get more experience and hopefully some real standouts will emerge.

Mourinho is the stand-out candidate.
In terms of trophies, I think only Guardiola has won more in the last 10 years. And Guardiola had the luxury of having the best player of all time, at his disposal, while at Bayern, he inherited the treble winning team.
For me, in the EPL, Mourinho is a better prospect than Guardiola (Guardiola has not proved himself with a poor team, which we would be, we are 6th place and he has not done anything in the EPL, which as Klopp and LVG are finding out, its very difficult).

 

[Roosney]

I think Mourinho is a great coach but the thought of an another possibly stubborn dictator-ish flare killing manager right after one makes my ass twitch.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

I think Mourinho is a great coach but the thought of an another possibly stubborn dictator-ish flare killing manager right after one makes my ass twitch.

Just wondering, who's your ideal candidate?

 

[Moriarty]

Apparently we are indeed targeting the players who can win things now (Muller, Bale, Ramos etc) we just can't get them to sign for United. The players he's signed are the best he - or United - can get at the moment it seems.

I don't think we were ever in with a chance for Ramos or Muller. Bale, maybe, but why would he want to step down to United at this stage of his career? Let's face it, these days, United are a downgrade on Real or Bayern, top wages paid or otherwise.