Aymeric Laporte | Signed new 5 year deal with Athletic

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Raoul said:
You're arguing with quantitative stats. Everything else is just opinion. Good luck with that.
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You're seriously think that stats of tackles, interceptions, clearances and aerial duels won is the best way to judge which is the best defender?

Here are some stats that show that Cleverley is better than Matic and miles better than Raul Garcia.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...s_created/pass_completion/defence_score#total

And here, to prove that Yaya Toure is significantly better than Iniesta and Modric (his total score is as high as both of them combined):

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m.../blocks/total_score/possession_score#totaltal

By the way, does anyone know how I can post those as images?
 
Jones will be fine, and get better once he stops getting fecking injured every 3 weeks. Unlike Evans, he doesn't seem to be mentally fragile. I still feel he'll go on to be an excellent defender
 
Revan said:
You're seriously think that stats of tackles, interceptions, clearances and aerial duels won is the best way to judge which is the best defender?

Here are some stats that show that Cleverley is better than Matic and miles better than Raul Garcia.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...s_created/pass_completion/defence_score#total

And here, to prove that Yaya Toure is significantly better than Iniesta and Modric (his total score is as high as both of them combined):

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m.../blocks/total_score/possession_score#totaltal

By the way, does anyone know how I can post those as images?
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No one said stats are everything - just as dismissing stats as irrelevant is myopic. You have to take the wholeness of the quantitative and qualitative information to form a decent opinion. For me, i can't shake the suspicion that people are obsessed with the grass is always greener on the other side concept. Other players are always better because they don't play for us, we're not frustrated by any of their performances, we see them less frequently, by read about them and Youtube them more on forums - therefore opinions about players are always likely to be unbalanced to the point where Varane will always be more attractive than Jones and the like. In other words its a perceptual illusion grounded in herd mentality bullshit.
 
Raoul said:
No one said stats are everything - just as dismissing stats as irrelevant is myopic. You have to take the wholeness of the quantitative and qualitative information to form a decent opinion. For me, i can't shake the suspicion that people are obsessed with the grass is always greener on the other side concept. Other players are always better because they don't play for us, we're not frustrated by any of their performances, we see them less frequently, by read about them and Youtube them more on forums - therefore opinions about players are always likely to be unbalanced to the point where Varane will always be more attractive than Jones and the like. In other words its a perceptual illusion grounded in herd mentality bullshit.
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I don't want rid of Jones, Evans yes, also don't want to see us have to bring McNair in as not ready yet, Blackett will never be our level. Laporte would be a nice player to bring in, tbh instead of Hummels, who might just add to our injury prone list. Yes he is experienced but John Terry was a leader at a young age. Ray Wilkins was captain at a young age, Gerrard was a leader at a young age. Chris Smalling might end up as that leader. I think most people are just baffled with this thing about throwing stats around and that stats are saying Phil Jones is the best young defender in the world. Does that mean we will be fighting off Real and Barca off in the summer?
 
Raoul said:
No one said stats are everything - just as dismissing stats as irrelevant is myopic. You have to take the wholeness of the quantitative and qualitative information to form a decent opinion. For me, i can't shake the suspicion that people are obsessed with the grass is always greener on the other side concept. Other players are always better because they don't play for us, we're not frustrated by any of their performances, we see them less frequently, by read about them and Youtube them more on forums - therefore opinions about players are always likely to be unbalanced to the point where Varane will always be more attractive than Jones and the like. In other words its a perceptual illusion grounded in herd mentality bullshit.
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I agree with that.

Anyway, Laporte/Varane isn't rated more than Jones only here. Go to whatever forum you want (both English supporting club or otherwise) and people will rate those two as the best young defenders while say that Jones is a joke. If nothing else, Jones is overrated here considering that I have yet to found a non-United fan (both real or in a forum) who rates him massively or near as much as those two.

Not saying that Jones is bad, but I think that he has been overwhelming, to not say dissapointing in his United career, and all those players I have mentioned have outperformed him and on merit, are highly rated than him. Personally - if I was United's manager - I would have given Jones another season and see how things go. If he doesn't improve (both on performances and on being fit) then I don't see the point on continuing with him.
 
Revan said:
I agree with that.

Anyway, Laporte/Varane isn't rated more than Jones only here. Go to whatever forum you want (both English supporting club or otherwise) and people will rate those two as the best young defenders while say that Jones is a joke. If nothing else, Jones is overrated here considering that I have yet to found a non-United fan (both real or in a forum) who rates him massively or near as much as those two.

Not saying that Jones is bad, but I think that he has been overwhelming, to not say dissapointing in his United career, and all those players I have mentioned have outperformed him and on merit, are highly rated than him. Personally - if I was United's manager - I would have given Jones another season and see how things go. If he doesn't improve (both on performances and on being fit) then I don't see the point on continuing with him.
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I think the injuries are the issue, most of which seem down to his own recklessness. Ledley King was a what you would call a good defender and look what injuries did to him in the end.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
I think the injuries are the issue, most of which seem down to his own recklessness. Ledley King was a what you would call a good defender and look what injuries did to him in the end.
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It is definitely one of the major problems. But then, I don't think that United can/should wait forever cause like we saw from Rafael/Anderson, it might never get better. 5 years should be enough to have a good opinion if we want to rely on him for the next 10 years or so.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
I think the injuries are the issue, most of which seem down to his own recklessness. Ledley King was a what you would call a good defender and look what injuries did to him in the end.
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Jones needs to engage his brain a bit more. Flying into tackles or attacking headers from miles out is fine but you're going to get hurt.

He looked very calm and composed at Blackburn when I watched him, unusual for auch a young player and the sign of a top defender. He carried a bit of that over into his early days at United. Now though he rarely looks like that unfortunately - always has an error or a rush of blood to the head. If anything Smalling has looked the better of the two over the season.
 
Jones does not get his proper due on here. He has a reputation as a liability without many examples of him being an actual liability. He is known as reckless but he is not carded that much and does not committ many fouls. He is better on the ball than caf darling Smalling. Really the only thing that is really holding him back is injuries.
 
Keeps It tidy said:
Jones does not get his proper due on here. He has a reputation as a liability without many examples of him being an actual liability. He is known as reckless but he is not carded that much and does not committ many fouls. He is better on the ball than caf darling Smalling. Really the only thing that is really holding him back is injuries.
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I think Jones has a brainfart in pretty much every game. It's not always game deciding or labelled as mistake because nothing happened after that. But everytime he gaves unnecessary fouls away or corners or is careless with his passing. He is the exact opposite of an intelligent defender for me, never rated him that much. Smalling is not perfect either, but he improved a good bit this season, but I agree that he is still far away from a top defender. Both him and Jones are not great with the ball on their feet to be honest.
 
Invictus said:
Height or weight is not the most comprehensive measure for physical superiority and athletic performance.

A 191 cm player might be visibly taller than the others. But in a sport like football, if he has a vertical jump of only 35 cm - that isn't as good as a 183 cm player who can jump 50 cm when extra height primarily comes into play for aerial duels. This is why players like Philip Lahm and Patrice Evra and Fabio Cannavaro could aerially dominate players who were significantly taller than them.

Similarly, someone weighing 70kg might be stronger on the ball and more determined than another weighing 80kg because of better muscle definition/ density and conditioning. eg. Arturo Vidal is only about 75kgs. But there was almost no midfielder around who could out out-muscle him through 2010-2014.

The height thing is especially annoying. Anything north 183cm, and the player should have no problems whatsoever in the Premier League. Carvalho was 183 cm, Carragher ditto, Terry is 186 cm and he is probably the best central defender in the league.

2cm less or more makes little to no difference. Yet there's this whole obsession with player dimensions. Exemplified by the persisting arguments that "Rojo at 6"1 is too short for the physical league".
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And some players can move more while in the air, angle themselves to win the ball, direct it accurately etc.

Speaking of smaller CBs, who would say Franco Baresi (5'10") was too small?

 
Baresi was a sweeper as far as I remember. A little different to a modern CB in my opinion.
 
Dans said:
Baresi was a sweeper as far as I remember. A little different to a modern CB in my opinion.
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He was a sweeper, which is basically a type of center-back, the offside rule back then allowed for one of the center backs to hang back a little ie sweep.

But I don't think there is any doubt he would dominate even in the modern game.
I was making the point that size doesn't make a defender, and he was very good aerially, and just sooo sharp and tough defensively.

Best defender I've seen in the last 40 years.
 
I'd look to get him in, along with stones. Reckon a 3 man rotation of him, stones and Smalling will get us through a season safely with quality defensive work being done. What's great about him is just how complete he is. He's both the stopper and the player. Such talents are rare in football and we should be looking to getting him on the books. He's also left footed which gives a great balance when passing out from the back.
 
Spanish press are linking us with him again, why do I get the feeling we'd buy him for 30mill to groom for Real in a few years... or am I being paranoid..
I would rather we go for Stones if we're going for a young CB with potential.
 
BennyBlanco said:
Spanish press are linking us with him again, why do I get the feeling we'd buy him for 30mill to groom for Real in a few years... or am I being paranoid..
I would rather we go for Stones if we're going for a young CB with potential.
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It's getting to the point where every single young player we are linked with gets greeted with "oh we are grooming him for Real Madrid" It's even being said about Memphis who hasn't kicked a ball for us yet.

We are too big a club to sell them every good player we ever get. And if we improve enough, hopefully going to Madrid will seem like a step down in a few years anyway. You can't just say "oh I won't sign him because Madrid will want him in a few years" United will get the best players and cross those bridges when they come to them.

I'd rather have a team full of Madrid and Barca targets than a team full of players nobody thinks is good enough for them.
 
BennyBlanco said:
Spanish press are linking us with him again, why do I get the feeling we'd buy him for 30mill to groom for Real in a few years... or am I being paranoid..
I would rather we go for Stones if we're going for a young CB with potential.
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He's not Spanish. French players usually settle well in England.
 
Revan said:
He's not Spanish. French players usually settle well in England.
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I hadnt realised, everytime I hear of a Bilbao player I automatically assume he's Spanish, but yea, basque, point taken.
 
Revan said:
He's not Spanish. French players usually settle well in England.
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Agreed, Spanish players or South American players are a certainty to want a dream move to Barca or Madrid but anywhere else we have a good chance of keeping them if we want to, but Laporte is French so I think we should go for him, looks a great player
 
Raoul said:
No one said stats are everything - just as dismissing stats as irrelevant is myopic. You have to take the wholeness of the quantitative and qualitative information to form a decent opinion. For me, i can't shake the suspicion that people are obsessed with the grass is always greener on the other side concept. Other players are always better because they don't play for us, we're not frustrated by any of their performances, we see them less frequently, by read about them and Youtube them more on forums - therefore opinions about players are always likely to be unbalanced to the point where Varane will always be more attractive than Jones and the like. In other words its a perceptual illusion grounded in herd mentality bullshit.
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All so true, but a hard point to convince people of. Youtube has had a very negative impact on discussing football.
 
I am not saying I am opposed to signing Laporte - but with Rojo, McNair, Jones and Smalling - a talented centreback is exactly what we don't need. We need an experienced one if we are gonne buy one.
 
Personally I think this would be a great signing. LEft sided defenders are hard to come by and no doubt this lad is one of the best young defenders in the world.

Functionally I think we just need a right back this summer, as we don't have one. if RVP goes (doubt he will) then we will need cover up top but otherwise rb is the big area.

The rest of our focus should be building for the future and I think we can sign young players in CB, CM and on the wing, the next best players in the world. I'd much much rather us sign laporte/varane, depay and veratti/pogba/koke for 120m than I would bale hummels and strootman for 150m. Choice number 1 - depay - I think we got right, I hope we push on with CB and CM future team of the year players like laporte
 
Signed new 5 year contract. Buyout clause €50m buyout clause (£36.5m).
 
Summit said:
How so?
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Because it's Bilbao, you still have to trigger the release clause if the player wants to leave. Could have signed the contract just to get them more money, difficult to say.

Would still rather spend the money on him than Otamendi, he still has many years in him and looks like a future world beater. Otamendi could be just a one-season-wonder and even if he can continue his form he is much older and not really much more experienced.
 
Pyroblazer said:
Because it's Bilbao, you still have to trigger the release clause if the player wants to leave. Could have signed the contract just to get them more money, difficult to say.

Would still rather spend the money on him than Otamendi, he still has many years in him and looks like a future world beater. Otamendi could be just a one-season-wonder and even if he can continue his form he is much older and not really much more experienced.
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But if had any intentions of leaving, then why would he up his buyout and maybe scare clubs off in buying him? It makes no sense at all.
 
Maybe they have got him to sign a new contract to cover what they would have lost on the exchange rate for his previous contract. Sensible. Wish they dealt with our transfer and contracts negotiations for us.
 
Summit said:
But if had any intentions of leaving, then why would he up his buyout and maybe scare clubs off in buying him? It makes no sense at all.
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As a favour to the club I guess. That price won't put off the big teams if they really want him
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Maybe they have got him to sign a new contract to cover what they would have lost on the exchange rate for his previous contract. Sensible. Wish they dealt with our transfer and contracts negotiations for us.
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Again though, it's up to him to sign and if he wanted to leave then he would have kept the buyout at 42m.
 
Summit said:
But if had any intentions of leaving, then why would he up his buyout and maybe scare clubs off in buying him? It makes no sense at all.
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Because most of the players are very loyal to the club and have a special relationship due to their basque roots. I don't think it's that strange at Bilbao and I also think he will not really push for a move that season anyway, so it's probably not a big deal for him too. But I don't think a move would be improssible despite the new contract.
 
Summit said:
Again though, it's up to him to sign and if he wanted to leave then he would have kept the buyout at 42m.
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As Ibi Dreams has said maybe he thinks he owes Bilbao something and wants to see them right. It is commendable whichever way you look at it.
 
Hes not going anywhere now, would be an idiotic thing to do if you wanted to leave. He has taken a pay rise I suspect and in return his buy out clause will go up, and he will stay at Bilbao for the next couple of seasons.
 
Matty7 said:
Hes not going anywhere now, would be an idiotic thing to do if you wanted to leave. He has taken a pay rise I suspect and in return his buy out clause will go up, and he will stay at Bilbao for the next couple of seasons.
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Nope, if the De Gea thread has taught us anything it's that players who are about to leave have a moral obligation to hinder their own move for the sake of the club that will be pocketing millions off their back.
 
Otamendi, Hummels and Miranda are the hot candidates obviously. The Laporte link cooled down months ago. Better if he stays 1-2 years and develops properly, we can still go for him then, even if it is a higher price.
 
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