sullydnl
Ross Kemp's caf ID
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2012
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- 35,065
Gatlin blew that didn't he? Lost all form over the last ten meters? Glad for bolt though.
Yep, Gatlin screwed up I thought.
Gatlin blew that didn't he? Lost all form over the last ten meters? Glad for bolt though.
Yet he's not even in the top 10 U18 in history.
Yet he's not even in the top 10 U18 in history.
Because he rarely ran the 100m as a youth, he was more of a 200m and 400m runner then. He has the three fastest youth 200m times.
http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/sprints/200-metres/outdoor/men/youth//
He's five of the top ten ffs, insane.
Because he rarely ran the 100m as a youth, he was more of a 200m and 400m runner then. He has the three fastest youth 200m times.
http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/sprints/200-metres/outdoor/men/youth//
Its still there..sixth story on the front page..I didnt really read the story after seeing that headline..They've changed it apparently. No Good vs Evil showdown mentioned.
I reckon he'd have won if he had maintained his composure in the final stretch. But that's the power of Bolt - he forces the others to do something they wouldn't normally do. The majority of his competitors have lost before the race even starts.Gatlin blew that didn't he? Lost all form over the last ten meters? Glad for bolt though.
He also has the fastest senior 200m.
Because he rarely ran the 100m as a youth, he was more of a 200m and 400m runner then. He has the three fastest youth 200m times.
http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/sprints/200-metres/outdoor/men/youth//
But that suggests he went on to run PB that would have him finishing about 9.5 meters ahead of what he ran as a youth. That's a pretty insane improvement even from going from youth to senior.
But even more crazy, is that he went from running 100m in 10.03 to 9.69 in a year. We aren't talking about a kid of 11 then a year later at 12 running a time that would have him 3 meters ahead of his previous best, but a pro sprinter from the age of 21 to 22. The only other person in history to have run under 9.8 and not failed a drug test in Maurice Greene and he's got the problem of bank transfers showing him making payments to the guy who supplied Marion Jones et al. Basically it seems like he went from being a 10 second plus guy, to blowing away all the enahnced athletes in history, in around a years time.
Outside of Jamaica, he never ran under 19.9 for the 200m before 2008. Then in 2009 he set a world record of 19.19. That literally means that between the age of 22 and 23 he improved his 200 meter sprint by about 7 meters. For all the unfair speculation, surely stuff like must make it very hard not to think something very fishy was going on. What could possible suddenly have changed? Would a kid who has just gone through puberty expect to make such a massive improvement, let alone a pro athlete who had been training since he was a teen?
When Ben Johnson went from running 10.44 to 9.84 in 4 years, it caused a lot of suspicion, as it made no sense at all. The recent Panorama show that showed evidence of Allan Wells drug use, supported their arguments by showing the un-explainable improvements in his times, over a short period. But these improvements weren't as great as Bolts or in such a short space of time.
What I think is totally irrelevant and it's just my opinion. But I'm interested to know what you think could be possible reasons for an athlete to improve his 100m time by 0.3 seconds and his 200m time by 0.7 seconds in a relatively short period of time? Do you really think things like new training regimes or diets changes can possibly account for such improvements?
9.5 metres over 200m from youth to senior is not an insane improvement at all. In fact, if you look at all the other runners of times under 19.88 (Blake, Johnson, Dix, Gatlin, Gay, Carter, Spearmon, Fredericks, Mennea, Marsh, Deloach, Weir, Lemaitre, Dywer, Edwards, Smith, Obikwelu, Caper, Kenderis, Martina, Ashmeade, Regis, Williams), only one of them appears on the 200m youth list, which goes up to 20.88 seconds. In other words, all but one of them have improved by over a second (Ashmeade by 0.87 seconds, and is only 25, so may well better this). You'd have a better argument questioning why Bolt's improvement is only 0.94 seconds. Plus, Bolt set the youth record at only 16 years old.
Bolt's 10.03 was pretty much the only 100m he'd run at that point. That doesn't make him a "10 second plus guy", but a young athlete who has demolished records in the 200m since he took up the sport now trying his hand at 100m.
200m wise, he ran:
20.13 in 2003
19.93 in 2004
19.99 in 2005
19.88 in 2006
19.75 in 2007 (don't know why you'd discounted that)
19.30 in 2008
19.19 in 2009
Sure, there's a jump, but it's not a completely wild one. Ben Johnson improving his 100m time by 0.6 seconds between the ages of 23 and 27 is simply not comparable with Bolt improving his 200m time by 0.63 between the ages of 18 and 22.
But that still doesn't explain the senior level improvements.
It wasn't his first 100m and it sure as hell wasn't his first 200m. What would you put those level of improvements down to?
Come off it, how is it not comparable with Ben Johnson? What reason would there be for him to have jumped from 19.75 to 19.30 in the space of a year? In 2 years he knocked half a second of his time. Is the really not a wild jump?
Also you can't just claim that was pretty much his first 100m and then not address the improvement. It's a crazy improvement. Why do you think he hadn't run many 100m? That's a very reasonable question. I would have thought logic dictated that it was because he wasn't that good at it. So why did he suddenly make this leap from being a plus 10 second guy, to blowing away every enhanced athlete in history? I just don't see how you could explain these leaps via things like "more focus" etc. We aren't talking about small improvements here.
But the point here isn't really to pick on Bolt, but the BBC etc, who are making these cringe worthy statements. It's pathetic the way they are trying to make out that this is a victory for the sport. Gatlin is racing because he keeps passing the tests! Powell is racing because he keeps passing the tests!
You don't know when PED use could have started! So you can't compare Johnson and Bolt based on age. The comparison comes from them both having dramatic improvements. In the thread you link they even list a number of guys of similar age who ran faster. None went on the smash the world record a year later. In fact of those I've heard of, (DeLoach, Lewis, Powell, Chambers, Gaitlan, and Obikwelu), 5 out of 6 of them have gone on to fail drug tests! I was going to make a similar point about the 200m runners you named). Yet I get the impression you think I'm being biased or are well wide of the mark with my suspicions. But that's the reality of the sport.
You are acting as if he was never training as a sprinter before that 100m race. He would have run literally thousands of 100m in his life. The obvious reason is because of his height, he struggled with the start. There is a good way of fixing that.
This is what Carl Lewis said about Bolt's improvement:
"for someone to run 10.03 one year and 9.69 the next, if you don’t question that in a sport that has the reputation it has right now, you’re a fool. Period.”
I've got to ask, have you ever taken any PED's or been involved in strength sports or athletics? I've noticed the same kind of resistance to accepting steroid use in the MMA thread. My hobby is power lifting and the idea of believing an athlete that is so reliant on power and explosiveness being natural and still better than all the enhanced athlete's in history is just insane to me. I've never taken steroids, but I have taken various peptides and even they make a very noticeable difference. Recently my mate ran a Anavar only cycle, which often people say isn't worth it, yet his lifts shot up. Power lifting is one of the few sports that can really tell us something about steroid use, as it has openly untested federations. Even though the tests are easy to pass, there is still a big difference, about 5%-10%, between the tested and untested records. Yet in sports where using steroids is the ultimate "no no", we see things like natural athletes destroying enhanced athletes. Yet if you question it, you are seen a being out of order and so on.
You don't know when PED use could have started! So you can't compare Johnson and Bolt based on age. The comparison comes from them both having dramatic improvements. In the thread you link they even list a number of guys of similar age who ran faster. None went on the smash the world record a year later. In fact of those I've heard of, (DeLoach, Lewis, Powell, Chambers, Gaitlan, and Obikwelu), 5 out of 6 of them have gone on to fail drug tests! I was going to make a similar point about the 200m runners you named). Yet I get the impression you think I'm being biased or are well wide of the mark with my suspicions. But that's the reality of the sport.
You are acting as if he was never training as a sprinter before that 100m race. He would have run literally thousands of 100m in his life. The obvious reason is because of his height, he struggled with the start. There is a good way of fixing that.
This is what Carl Lewis said about Bolt's improvement:
"for someone to run 10.03 one year and 9.69 the next, if you don’t question that in a sport that has the reputation it has right now, you’re a fool. Period.”
I've got to ask, have you ever taken any PED's or been involved in strength sports or athletics? I've noticed the same kind of resistance to accepting steroid use in the MMA thread. My hobby is power lifting and the idea of believing an athlete that is so reliant on power and explosiveness being natural and still better than all the enhanced athlete's in history is just insane to me. I've never taken steroids, but I have taken various peptides and even they make a very noticeable difference. Recently my mate ran a Anavar only cycle, which often people say isn't worth it, yet his lifts shot up. Power lifting is one of the few sports that can really tell us something about steroid use, as it has openly untested federations. Even though the tests are easy to pass, there is still a big difference, about 5%-10%, between the tested and untested records. Yet in sports where using steroids is the ultimate "no no", we see things like natural athletes destroying enhanced athletes. Yet if you question it, you are seen a being out of order and so on.
Carl Lewis was caught a few times himself.
Yep. He's an arse, he was second in Seoul, in a field full of sted heads including him. I suspect all of them are on the juice, so it's a level playing field at the top. As for Lewis, Ben Johnson beat him...er... Fairly and squarely. Well..... He beat his fellow juicers.Yeah, three positive tests I think. Bit hypocritical of him to then accuse someone without any evidence at all.
Yes, you can look at their ages. Johnson's improvement was after an age when you wouldn't expect unaccountable increases. Bolt's notable improvements stop at age 21. Virtually every other top athlete showed similar improvements at a similar age or later.
Of course none of the other athletes went on to break the world record, but then I suspect that it wasn't the first time they'd competed at the event, so that point is redundant. And no, he won't have run thousands of 100s at any level where his results will have been recorded. He's run less than 100 times in the last 8 years, and that's when he's actually been competing in the event.
I'd take anything Carl Lewis says with a pinch of salt.
I've not taken any PEDs, not been involved in strength sports, but I'm not sure that's relevant. Firstly, it's a different sport, and some of the best sprinters have not needed to be particularly muscular to compete (some today seemed relatively slight of build). Secondly, even if steroids make a huge difference, it's not evidence that Bolt is using them - merely that it would be of great advantage to do so.
You're not merely "questioning it" with "suspicions", you've gone out and said that the idea he's clean is "ridiculous" and "stupid", apparently based on the fact that he didn't have top 10 u18 times in an event he didn't compete in, and because he improved at the 200m at a similar rate as many other athletes.
Don't get me wrong, he may be doping, but the evidence based on his rate of improvement is just not there - he has always been well ahead of the pack at 200m, and translated that to 100m.
You can't simply say his notable improvements stopped at 21. Athletes develop physically at different rates. Bolt was apparently 6"5 at 16. From 2003 to 2007 he lowered his 200m time by 0.38 seconds. Yet over the following year alone he suddenly took another 0.45 seconds of it. That's very odd, no matter what you say. It was during that same year he want from being a +10 second 100 meter runner, to world record holder. I wasn't trying to say he'd run thousands of official races, but that he would have run 100m thousands of times prior to that. He's a sprinter, he'd run 100m every single day. He never competed for a reason and it wasn't because the 200m was more important as no one would argue that. No matter how you spin things, in the space of a year he went from being a non competitive 100m runner, to a world record holder and knocked an incredible 0.45 seconds of his 200m PB.
You can't just dismiss what Carl Lewis is saying as it has value. You don't want to acknowledge it, but you are being told by someone with years of experience in sprinting and taking drugs, that it's suspicious when someone suddenly drops their times by that much.
Which sprinters aren't particularly muscular? But the benefits of steroids go way beyond simply building muscle mass.
I didn't base my opinion on the fact he didn't have a top 10 U18 time. That came later in the thread. It's not normal to see the sudden improvements he did. At senior level he wasn't well ahead of the pack. He dropped his 200m time in one year as much as he had in the previous 4 years. This coincided with him suddenly becoming the fastest 100m in history, from relatively nowhere. You are making it sound as if I'm ignoring a steady progression without a sudden leap into destroying every athlete in history.
We clearly aren't going to agree on this, but can we at least agree there was a sudden jump between 2007 and 2008, that was out of kilter with what we'd previously seen from him and would expect from an athlete who wasn't new to the sport?
Thing is with Bolt is that now he's showing a noticeable decline whilst Gatlin is running as well as he ever has at 33. I'd think if Bolt was doping he would have been caught like most of his peers have been although the Jamaican drug testing standards have been questioned before.
Huddle, what a stupid thing to do.
Brilliant by Infeld though!
Huddle, what a stupid thing to do.