We are comparing the football today to football under SAF, but there are several huge differences: first, Sir Alex had many many years to settle down his team, while Mourinho has only been here 1 1/2 years, so we haven’t yet seen a settled team. Second, at times during SAF era we also played horribly, I remember many 1-0 matches, and people would say that being able to grind out a result was the mark of a good team. Third, we have spent huge sums of money lately, and people (myself included) want results quickly. But we must all have patience and trust the manager to do his job.
Any Positive Fans Out Here??
- Thread starter hn4manunited
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We are comparing the football today to football under SAF, but there are several huge differences: first, Sir Alex had many many years to settle down his team, while Mourinho has only been here 1 1/2 years, so we haven’t yet seen a settled team. Second, at times during SAF era we also played horribly, I remember many 1-0 matches, and people would say that being able to grind out a result was the mark of a good team. Third, we have spent huge sums of money lately, and people (myself included) want results quickly. But we must all have patience and trust the manager to do his job.
For the majority of the Fergie era we played splendid football. There was some shite, but most of the time during the rubbish football we won. When we didn't he and those teams got stick too. In all the years since he's been gone, we've not played decent football and we've not won. Fans would have a slightly higher tolerance if we did one or the other, but when it's neither - you're going to get stick. It's part of the job. I'm deliberately not naming other teams who manage to play better football than us with lesser resources because that turns into a pissing contest.
A big part of the problem I think is that in spite of there being significant improvements under Mourinho we have kind of stunted a bit this season. We haven't played well, as in really well, in months now. We have moments or spells in games, and other games where we don't even have those moments or spells. It doesn't fill people with any real confidence. The same thing happened in the second half of last season which adds to the wariness. You have to consider as well that the goal posts have changed. Two years ago, fourth place was good enough. Now, second place isn't. That's a positive in itself, but also breeds negativity when even doing the best we can this season will mean no better than 2nd place.
What I find weird about this place is though is just the blatant overlooking of basic logic in order to snipe based on whatever the theme is at the time.
You look at the complaints, and a lot of them up until recently were about the style of football, but the football under LVG was much worse...the goalposts haven't really moved here. Football is either entertaining or it isn't. It was criticised to a point under LVG. It's criticised much more under Jose even though the football, although it could be better, certainly isn't as bad as it was previously. If we drew Sheffield United at home in the cup, we wouldn't have to wait until the 79th minute for our first shot OFF target. We'd attack them. It is no worse at the moment than it was in spells under Fergie..and again, during those spells there was definitely criticism, but not to the level it's at now.
More recently, it's about players being in positions or roles people don't like, and again, you look at us under LVG, or even Moyes or even SAF, and this was always happening. Ferguson spent a few years playing Roy Keane at centreback and John O'Shea in midfield...and again, people complained about it, but in measure. He tried to replace Keane with Alan Smith. It didn't become the entire reason for everything that's wrong with the universe. LVG in one game played three centrebacks, who were Carrick, McNair and Blind...and then had three actual first team centrebacks on the bench, and we played terribly...and people were not only willing to overlook it but actually go as far as to claim it was some form of genius tactical innovation. If Mourinho did the same thing tomorrow and we played terribly, what would the reaction be?
When you get a basic breakdown of logic like this, then even as a pessimist or someone that likes a moan (for example, me) you start wondering why. Are there just a large number of people who don't like Mourinho so are overly willing to be negative about anything they can find? Does a lack of winning the league just cause people to gradually descend into frothing lunatics over time (RAWK would suggest that it does). If we won our next three games 4-0 would everyone shut up or suddenly change tune?
And then actually, when you think about it, the one constant theme of moaning on here over the years, has been people moaning about how people moan too much. So maybe it is just always like this and you only really realise it when you're not one of the ones moaning about whatever the main theme is at the time?
I don't really know where I'm going with this except it's eaten up enough time that I can leave work and go home.
What I find weird about this place is though is just the blatant overlooking of basic logic in order to snipe based on whatever the theme is at the time.
You look at the complaints, and a lot of them up until recently were about the style of football, but the football under LVG was much worse...the goalposts haven't really moved here. Football is either entertaining or it isn't. It was criticised to a point under LVG. It's criticised much more under Jose even though the football, although it could be better, certainly isn't as bad as it was previously. If we drew Sheffield United at home in the cup, we wouldn't have to wait until the 79th minute for our first shot OFF target. We'd attack them. It is no worse at the moment than it was in spells under Fergie..and again, during those spells there was definitely criticism, but not to the level it's at now.
More recently, it's about players being in positions or roles people don't like, and again, you look at us under LVG, or even Moyes or even SAF, and this was always happening. Ferguson spent a few years playing Roy Keane at centreback and John O'Shea in midfield...and again, people complained about it, but in measure. He tried to replace Keane with Alan Smith. It didn't become the entire reason for everything that's wrong with the universe. LVG in one game played three centrebacks, who were Carrick, McNair and Blind...and then had three actual first team centrebacks on the bench, and we played terribly...and people were not only willing to overlook it but actually go as far as to claim it was some form of genius tactical innovation. If Mourinho did the same thing tomorrow and we played terribly, what would the reaction be?
When you get a basic breakdown of logic like this, then even as a pessimist or someone that likes a moan (for example, me) you start wondering why. Are there just a large number of people who don't like Mourinho so are overly willing to be negative about anything they can find? Does a lack of winning the league just cause people to gradually descend into frothing lunatics over time (RAWK would suggest that it does). If we won our next three games 4-0 would everyone shut up or suddenly change tune?
And then actually, when you think about it, the one constant theme of moaning on here over the years, has been people moaning about how people moan too much. So maybe it is just always like this and you only really realise it when you're not one of the ones moaning about whatever the main theme is at the time?
I don't really know where I'm going with this except it's eaten up enough time that I can leave work and go home.
This is a pretty good and balanced post that understands the misgivings about Mourinho and why people are concerned but yes also realises about different situations. My critique would be though, yes you said that fans gave a good old moan about LVG and the teams style of play, which is true and was warranted, however the football here can be just as dire sometimes, if not worse on occasions, we had a better record in big games under LVG than Mourinho for example, where we tend to cower away a lot more, so I guess my point is, even though the football overall is slightly better under Mourinho than it was LVG or Moyes, it's still rather dour a lot of the time, but are we not allowed to criticise or not like it just because the managers name is now Jose Mourinho and not LVG? I would argue that Mourinho should come in for more criticism actually because of the money spent since he's come here, I actually thought, despite again the performances being dire at times last season, that it was a big improvement and i was happy about last season, won those cups, decent improvement, okay a lot of money spent but the signs were there that we could be going in the right direction here. He then spends another load of money in the summer, but what's improved? The style of play is shocking at times, team looks like strangers, the record at big games is mostly really bad, we can't buy a win after we've conceded first or gone a goal behind, the mentality and the passion just isn't there, a lot of his buys just aren't working to the standard they set before they came here, Lindelof can barely make the bench nevermind the team despite the fact we have Smalling and Jones starting, Lukaku isn't doing so well though that's in part to, usually, a piss poor amount of chances created.
I feel insulted when i'm accused of not being a supporter of the club or a hater of Jose Mourinho when I point the obvious things anyone can see on the pitch out, it's because i'm a supporter of the club and not Mourinho personally that I care enough to bring these things up in a discussion, because i'm not seeing the evidence with my own two eyes that we are progressing forward as a club, especially when you consider the amount of money spent and the wealth of talent available, can the squad be improved? Of course, it always can, but you can't tell me our attack should be shitting the bed the way it is when we've got Pogba, Martial, Lukaku, Lingard on form, Mata, Rashford and so on. Sorry but if this makes me blind then I guess i'm worse than a bat, because I refuse to bury my head in the sand and say lets just chuck another 200million at him it will click next year, all because his name's Jose Mourinho, not because he's actually earned that trust this season, because for me he hasn't.
Yep!
If you were in a pub talking about it...you would have your moan and then if you kept on about it the bloke next to you would say..."you've just said that...give it a rest son".
Social media allows people to keep going over the same thing...that's when it becomes too much.
However, like some others have said...if you don't like the negativity don't come on the forum.
I try not to come on to often and rarely in the match day threads...there is no sanity.
Another melodrama queen bites the dust.
But this doesn't just relate to negativity about results and performances.
If you sit in a pub constantly droning on about obscure United youth players people will probably tell you to shut up after a while.
Only the Caf 
JM calls the rumours about Pogba lies and says the media are talking bullshit. The Caf believe he hasn't really addressed the issue and had added fuel to the fire.
What planet are some of you on
JM calls the rumours about Pogba lies and says the media are talking bullshit. The Caf believe he hasn't really addressed the issue and had added fuel to the fire.
What planet are some of you on
It's natural for the criticism to gain traction at this point in Mourinho's tenure, we're past settling in and we're now watching what should be, after a big outlay, the semblance of a functioning team. The fact that we're spluttering will just intensify the scrutiny. The next 3 months will be make our break for him.
Agreed...people wouldn't do that either.
It's so easy for us fans to switch from pessimism to optimism (and not just the caf, I think most fanbases are guilty of it).
At the moment I'd say I'm pessimistic. The losses at Spurs and Newcastle were awful, but I think it's also following a week where Liverpool and Spurs looked excellent on the European stage.
But, in a month's time, I could also be very happy if we've beaten Chelsea and Liverpool at home in the league, get past Sevilla, and are still in the FA Cup. Likewise, other teams could have a terrible month and everything will be fine and dandy again. Seasons have ups and downs.
At the moment I'd say I'm pessimistic. The losses at Spurs and Newcastle were awful, but I think it's also following a week where Liverpool and Spurs looked excellent on the European stage.
But, in a month's time, I could also be very happy if we've beaten Chelsea and Liverpool at home in the league, get past Sevilla, and are still in the FA Cup. Likewise, other teams could have a terrible month and everything will be fine and dandy again. Seasons have ups and downs.
Nah our fans are just spoilt little brats. We just signed a top top number 7 yet people still moaning. Wish they'd just get the feck away from my club.
And if it was true what do you suggest Jose would be saying differently?Only the Caf
JM calls the rumours about Pogba lies and says the media are talking bullshit. The Caf believe he hasn't really addressed the issue and had added fuel to the fire.
What planet are some of you on
True or not Managers spin the truth all the time.
The proog will be evident on the pitch in the next month.
We had exactly the same when JM came out and called the rumours about him leaving and bring unhappy rubbish.
The Caf decided he was lying and off to PSG.
Week later Jose signs a new contract and extension.
Dohhhh. Will you never learn!
Ah so one truth means all is to believed for ever more....
People always want to believe what suits them most. They really wanted to believe those PSG rumors and now really want to believe these Pogba news.
Nah. However when someone comes out and categorically smashes rumours like JM has done twice now I'd sooner believe facts and evidence as has been proven before as opposed to the Caf negative moron brigade.
As I said the evidence will be seen on the pitch. It is very likely that any talk of Pogba looking away from the club is premature however the body language on the pitch of late does suggest all is not right.
Most were born further afield than Stoke and whether or not, they’d still attach themselves to United and moan.
Yeah he's not in good form. He's hardly going to be happy with himself is he?
True. How much he attributes his poor form to himself or to the managers tactics is point of some speculation.
JM still doesn’t have a settled side, we just need to give him time. He has an incredible record of success, with the proper support from Ed and the Board we will get there.
What's wrong with you,,,have you not seen today's newspapers?
* Pogba hates it at United and is off to Madrid
*De Gea to Sign for Madrid in Summer
* Pogba hates Sanchez
* Mourinho to sign for PSG after their loss in Madrid
*Huddersfield are gonna batter us at the weekend
* Dunno what else I have missed.
You want us to be Positive after all that??
I wish I had your optimism, however I have absolutely no idea what you are watching on the pitch in order to claim everything is extremely positive and we are moving in the right direction, you also can't say well we are one transfer window away, for how many years have we been 'one transfer window away' 'needs to get rid of the deadwood' It's been going on for years now, when will it end, it's not really working so well.. oh w-well more money and another transfer window that's whats needed, everytime. We should know by now this isn't how you always fix something, squads playing like crap a lot and the team looks like a load of strangers frequently? Well clearly he just needs to buy more players that will fix it, genuinely bemused at that attitude but nevermind.
True that Mourinho is, or at least at one point was a fantastic manager, it remains to be seen if he reaches the same heights here, currently I would say all signs point to not, I mean LVG had a track record of success that many managers would envy over their careers and that didn't work out so well either. The one thing I am happy about, mainly, is the squad, I think you are right we do have a great group of players, particularly in attack, young and talented... but what are they showing us? Pogba has hit nowhere near the heights here as he has at Juventus, Zlatan may be a great voice in the dressing room and he did pretty well for us last season, but he's been a non entity this season and he'll be gone at the end of it, Martial is great I think he has potential to be one of the top players in the world, probably our most productive LW player, so why then has Mourinho shafted him and stuck him on the right to accommodate Sanchez, I mean people will say im a nobody and Mourinho is Mourinho he knows best, but you cannot tell me that this move wasn't stupid beyond belief when Sanchez can easily play on the RW and Martial was doing so well for us on the left, genuinely made absolutely no sense to me. Don't get me wrong i am ecstatic about the Sanchez signing but lets wait and see again if he reaches this high heights we know he can reach, because a lot of players in this squad are hitting nowhere near to theirs currently and haven't for a while.
I don't really get your Stoke comment, anybody supporting any team in the world, no matter if it's Stoke or Manchester United, if you find a fault with it, you're going to bring it up regardless and question/worry about it, it's true that the two clubs exist in different realms of expectation but like I said, even if I was from Stoke and supported Stoke, if i saw Stoke playing the way we play on the field sometimes damn right i'd still be questioning it, but i'm not from Stoke and so I can't speak for Stoke fans.
Despite what anyone may think I am on Mourinho's side, as a supporter of the club I want him to do well of course, he does well, the team does well, the club does well, everybody's happy, but surely people can understand the need to see evidence of this, I'm more than happy to admit yes give Mourinho the summer, hell give him 2, he'll get more good players in things are gonna get better and better, but then surely show that there's something to work on, instead of turning out tumescent crap on the field where the players look like strangers, has this happened in every match? No, but it's happened frequently enough that people are obviously picking up on it and are worried by what they are seeing.
But what I can't abide by is this chuck more money at the squad, every summers a rebuild philosophy when we can't even get the squad that we have, with great players in it mind some of which Mourinho has bought himself, to play fluidly, coherently, passionately and with great teamwork on a consistent basis.
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Jesus, touched a nerve with this one, if you can't see we are moving in the right direction I suggest you dig out the DVD for the 13/14 season (I doubt there is one)
Fergie left a poor squad and most of the buys up until Mourinho have also been poor, so unfortunately we do need to spend more.
I'm a very positive person and very optimistic. I happen to think that a club with our resources and team shouldn't be afraid of anyone and should at least try and compete with the top teams when we play them instead of showing them way too much respect. I've got this mad idea that we can play fast , creative attacking football as well as protect our goal. I've got an even more way out idea ....play Pogba in the same position that he seemed to love at Juve and in a system that suits him. I'm positive enough to think that just might work.....call me naive but I happen to believe that we can play good football and win , win better and more games in fact.
I only wish Mourinho (and those who seem to love 9-0-1 whenever we play anyone good) were as positive as I am.
You see...it all comes down to how we perceive this thing we call "negativity". To some I just sound like a nitpicker but to those who share the same thoughts as me I'm a positive realist who yearns for change.
I only wish Mourinho (and those who seem to love 9-0-1 whenever we play anyone good) were as positive as I am.
You see...it all comes down to how we perceive this thing we call "negativity". To some I just sound like a nitpicker but to those who share the same thoughts as me I'm a positive realist who yearns for change.
And I suggest you watch our football matches, i didn't say it wasn't better than Moyes or LVG but that's hardly difficult is it? I'm also tired of this Sir Alex left a crap squad stuff, was it an ideal squad? No, but it was hardly mid table fodder was it, bearing in mind we were a decent enough squad to win the FA Cup under LVG and then the 2 cups under Mourinho in his first season.
So i didnt say there wasn't progress on the field beyond Moyes and LVG, its the lack of progress and at times awful football we endure this season after a decent start last season, it's called stalling, it's not moving forward, hell by the end of the season it could be fathomably worse than last season.
But no you'd rather bury your head in the sand and pretend everything is going perfect, he cant get the squad we have to function properly so clearly we need to throw more money and players at him till it's forced to work. I hope you're right, i really do, but confidence has not been inspired
What do you expect?
We're fans of one of the biggest football clubs in the world.
In terms of history, fan base and spending power.
We've been under-performing ever since Fergie retired. We still are.
You expect us to be humbly thankful for any semblance of «progress» (defined any way that suits you best)?
Nah. Not gonna happen.
Can't celebrate baby steps when you aren't convinced those steps are actually part of a grander scheme that makes sense.
What grander scheme? Hire a manager famous for winning things quickly in order to slowly, meticulously build a top team?
Jose will be duly hailed by all the skeptics when he actually wins something major - for United. Until that happens - no. And why the feck should it be any different? Is Jose Mourinho someone you hire to make baby steps and eventually achieve something grand?
Maybe he is.
Sure as feck wasn't what people saw him as when we hired him, though.
We're fans of one of the biggest football clubs in the world.
In terms of history, fan base and spending power.
We've been under-performing ever since Fergie retired. We still are.
You expect us to be humbly thankful for any semblance of «progress» (defined any way that suits you best)?
Nah. Not gonna happen.
Can't celebrate baby steps when you aren't convinced those steps are actually part of a grander scheme that makes sense.
What grander scheme? Hire a manager famous for winning things quickly in order to slowly, meticulously build a top team?
Jose will be duly hailed by all the skeptics when he actually wins something major - for United. Until that happens - no. And why the feck should it be any different? Is Jose Mourinho someone you hire to make baby steps and eventually achieve something grand?
Maybe he is.
Sure as feck wasn't what people saw him as when we hired him, though.
It was nice not knowing you.
I'm extremely positive. Till last week, I was using the BBC predictor to somehow make us winning the league. I've not given up yet because it's not mathematically over yet. I would like for United to do well, but after all the years of SAF, I'm ok with wherever we end up, as long as we are trying.
Yes but Fergie could get success out of a limited squad whilst Jose can't mould a team after spending a fortune.
It's not problematic to lose confidence in February when you're more than 12 points behind the leaders.
We could maybe be 7-9 points if we had played a lot better. What does that say about the league leaders? The players are only human, this will get to them. The team's efforts have not been an issue until the past two games or so.
This old tosh again, the Prem is a different place, I imagine Fergie would struggle in today's game. I get it, some people just don't like Mourinho, I would love to know who would realistically do a better job.
I don't think there's that many people (there's probably a few because there always is) who think you can't criticise our style of play or other aspects, just because Jose is manager. This was definitely more of a problem under LVG, where any argument you made to criticise him was batted off as you not understanding his philosophy (the fact he didn't seem to understand it either didn't seem to be relevant). With Jose it seems to constantly be open season as far as criticism goes. You can criticise him about whatever you want..and some of it does disperse from being genuine criticism to just borderline maniacle lunacy that has no sense or logic to it. People seem to want EVERYTHING to be Jose Mourinho's fault. It's the current theme. There's always themes on here. Everything used to be Berbatov's fault. Everything was Rooney's fault for a while. At one point the team selections were Rooney's fault (no, really). At the moment a player can't play badly without it being Jose's fault. If Man City win 5-0 against someone, that's Jose's fault because we can''t do the same thing. There's no semblance of balance or realism to anything.
I mean, I don't think any of your criticisms are particularly unfair at all. In fact, I pretty much agree with you. Apart form that I don't think the football in general gets anywhere near as bad as under LVG. I don't even think his record in big games was significantly better...though you are right that we are certainly more cowardly in those games now. I don't think who's spent what is such a factor as LVG and Mourinho would have had similar resources at their disposal, and LVG didn't exactlly spend wisely. Jose has already ditched one of his signings, which is quite weird as you'd think we'd research who we're spending money on a bit better..espciallly after LVG did the same thing with several players.
On the whole though, yeah. I saw the progress last season, wasn't happy with the amount of moaning from Jose and negative performances towards the end of it. This season the jury is still out and I'm not sure what to make of Jose in terms of whether I think he's the right guy to take us forwards...but I would also take that hand in hand with the fact that we are now a better team than a year and a half ago, a mentally tougher team. We have better players. A team that scores more goals and can make easy work of games that a couple of years ago would have been somewhere from a struggle to descending into some kind of comedy act. At the end of the day we are in second place and still in two of the three cups...it can still go well or horribly wrong and what I see on the pitch makes me indecisive about which I think is more likely...but you can think these things without needing to jump on the bandwagon of taking it to silly extremes.
Funny thing is when I go to games and when I used to have a season ticket, the level of moaning and repetive baffling shite in the ground and in the pub before hand would sometimes be ten fold what it usually is on here. Particularly during negative periods such as when Moyes was in charge. People in the stadium in particular often have amazingly weird points of view. The guy two rows behind me used to hate De Gea and shout abuse at him nearly every game. There was literally nowhere you could sit in the stadium without someone near you spending the whole game moaning about Nani, even if he was playing well. There were mobs of Ferguson haters. Hargreaves seemed to be nearly universally disliked as a player at OT yet on here the feeling towards him was mostly positive. Then people, not so much now, but certianly in the past, would come on here and tell "armchair fans" off for having negative opinions, which I always found strange, because there's no way you go to Old Trafford regularly and don't hear some of the same things, if anything just articulated worse/more drunkenly than on here.
I think the main difference is, if I'm watching or talking about football in a pub, it will be in a jokey way. If I'm having a moan about something with or to someone, I'm also having a laugh with them. We're not going to fall out over what part of the pitch Paul Pogba wants to play in. On here sometimes people take your opinion on even the most pointless subject extremely seriously...almost as if it's some kind of personal insult.
I would like to know who could do a worse job.
Bury my head in the sand, what are you on about. You mention throwing money at it until it works, isn't that exactly what the saviour of football Pep is doing across the road.
I think of late he has been buying the right players to address the weakness in their squad.
He's spending money sure, but there's a massive correlation between how much money they've spent, the kind of football they are playing, which is, get as snarky as you like, but it's brilliant football, and how far and away infront they are in the league and that they have a real good chance of winning every trophy they are currently in for. Compare that to us, we may have a few players that aren't as good on the entire squad, but what noticeable improvement has the team made on the pitch from this year to last, with all that extra money spent, i'm not asking or suggesting we play exactly like City, because you'll just say well City have spend better over a longer period to try and counteract that, but with all the money spent i at least expect to see some coherency, that we don't walk out onto the pitch 1 day and look okay and the next like all of them are strangers to each other, that our attack is actually connected and not a bunch of individuals that bump into each other and get in each others way, I could go on but I think you see my point. I'm not asking for miracles or being spoiled, i'm stating very reasonably that with all our money spent we should at least be seeing something more than what we are getting, especially from how good Mourinho is supposed to be and how good we know he can be, I don't think that's too much to ask is it.
I mean at least they've spent well and plugged holes in their squad and virtually every player they've bought is playing to a higher level than before. Mourinho's already dropped and traded off one of his signings, we can't get Pogba to his best, which is admittedly on Pogba himself as well, Lindelof can barely make the bench, getting Sanchez was excellent business but then shunted our best LW to the right to accommodate him instead of playing on the right, there was absolutely no point in signing Zlatan to another year and sucking up the wages, he's been a complete non factor, we're still here trying to fit square pegs into round holes despite the huge outlay of money, I mean I don't know what else to say really..