Antony: why the concern - use the player performance thread

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AlPistacho said:
100%
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Let me ask a very simple question, because the debate regarding Antony confuses me: Do you think Antony s
Red in STL said:
And that's spot on, players, not just Antony, are judged individually rather than how they work as part of the team, our RB's have improved substantially this season and IMO that is partly due to Antony, he is one of the best ball carriers in the team, if it wasn't for the fact he's so one footed I'd say there was case to be made that he'd be a good option to play the role that we apparently want De Jong to do.

There's another thread asking the question do United fans tryst ETH, the answer is of course an overwhelming yes, Antony is an ETH signing so maybe we should lay off and bow to his superior knowledge for the time being
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Red in STL said:
And that's spot on, players, not just Antony, are judged individually rather than how they work as part of the team, our RB's have improved substantially this season and IMO that is partly due to Antony, he is one of the best ball carriers in the team, if it wasn't for the fact he's so one footed I'd say there was case to be made that he'd be a good option to play the role that we apparently want De Jong to do.

There's another thread asking the question do United fans tryst ETH, the answer is of course an overwhelming yes, Antony is an ETH signing so maybe we should lay off and bow to his superior knowledge for the time being
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Ok, so a simple question:
Would you be happy with our next, say three signings, all being equal to Antony's ability? If we could get three players, right now, guaranteed, to be the same ability as Antony, provide the same impact etc, for the same money, would you be happy with that? Would you accept that?
 
Jeffthered said:
Let me ask a very simple question, because the debate regarding Antony confuses me: Do you think Antony s



Ok, so a simple question:
Would you be happy with our next, say three signings, all being equal to Antony's ability? If we could get three players, right now, guaranteed, to be the same ability as Antony, provide the same impact etc, for the same money, would you be happy with that? Would you accept that?
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If they are better than what they are replacing then yes, I judge players on how they work within the team more than I do on the basis of cost and individual talents.

United are currently a better team when Antony plays, given that Pellestri, who appears to be a better attacking threat, doesn't get a sniff is telling, Antony is doing what his manager wants him to do, that's why he plays every week and of course we all trust that ETH knows what he's doing
 
Jeffthered said:
Let me ask a very simple question, because the debate regarding Antony confuses me: Do you think Antony s



Ok, so a simple question:
Would you be happy with our next, say three signings, all being equal to Antony's ability? If we could get three players, right now, guaranteed, to be the same ability as Antony, provide the same impact etc, for the same money, would you be happy with that? Would you accept that?
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Depends on the age and position. Currently Antony does enough when it comes to tiring the opposition defence, his goals output is what you’d expect not great but not bad. But above all else there is room for improvement and more than likely he will get better especially in regards to goals. Only complaint is direct assist, but indirectly he’s been involved in quite a few goals so that is just as important and something to be judged for a winger.
 
AlPistacho said:
Depends on the age and position. Currently Antony does enough when it comes to tiring the opposition defence, his goals output is what you’d expect not great but not bad. But above all else there is room for improvement and more than likely he will get better especially in regards to goals. Only complaint is direct assist, but indirectly he’s been involved in quite a few goals so that is just as important and something to be judged for a winger.
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We call him a winger, maybe ETH views him as a wide midfielder maybe?

Sancho is called a winger but TBH I don't really think of him as one
 
Jury is still out for me. He clearly has talent but is far too predictable and unless he develops a right foot I don't see him every justifying his price tag or being a long term regular in our team.

Garnacho looks a better player at 18 and with Amad coming back after a very successful loan I would hope he gets a chance to fight for a place in our first 11.
 
El Jefe said:
I don't get why some poster's seem to be taking the criticism of him as an unjust attack on him. ETH made five signings this summer, Eriksen, Martinez, Casemiro, Malacia and Antony.

Antony is the least performing of the five and by quite a distance if we factor in expectation and transfer fees.

If we extend that to the starting 11, he's probably the player performing the least excluding the striker position which in Martial or Weghorst performance thread they get criticised for. You could argue RB also and the same would hold true in Dalot or AWBs thread. If Antony was putting in top performances this thread wouldn't exist.

With that said the biggest issue for Antony is his skillset for me. I think everyone recognises that he's 23 and only in his first season. Young players will always need time but in turn they need to show what they are capable of in order to built a trust in their potential. Antony lacks so many key skills needed to be top player in my opinion. Usually you cite decision making as the weakness of young players but in Antony’s case its a clear lack of ability so I'm not sold on the potential.
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Spot on and this is the part that's worrying! Everything he does is so easily read. First he stops up play .Then he starts fannying about stroking the ball with his left foot, holding up play even longer. You can see when he's going to cut inside. The defender knows it's coming so he anticipates it and it becomes a back pass instead. If the defender leaves him no other option than to go on the outside he hasn't got the pace to get past the defender and if he does he's fecked as it's on his right foot. He's so limited!
If you look at Garnacho who does have the skills and turn of pace, you can see the difference. Comparing the two is the best way to highlight the problem we have with Antony imo.
i honestly thought he had the potential but watching recent games I'm not seeing it and thinking what you see is what you get. His biggest problem is he's Brazilian and because of that he probably believes he's born with the skills. Just a thought!
 
PSV said:
I won't even comment the Giggs remark.

As for constantly challenging, is this mentally then or what? Because he's not taking them on, that's for sure.



This is a weird statement. Giggs was quite consistent throughout his career.

Giggs (league stats):
Giggs 1992-96: 141 games - 34 goals - 33 assists - 0,475 G/A per game
Giggs 1996-00: 109 games - 20 goals - 27 assists - 0,431 G/A per game
Giggs 2000-04: 125 games - 27 goals - 30 assists - 0,456 G/A per game
Giggs 2004-08: 116 games - 14 goals - 33 assists - 0,405 G/A per game
Giggs 2008-14: 137 games - 13 goals - 38 assists - 0,372 G/A per game
--
Giggs 1992-14: 628 games - 108 goals - 161 assists - 0,428 G/A per game


Grealish isn't holding our team back. It's a plus for us if he's mediocre. Why would we waste energy on that? Plus, for what it's worth, Grealish beats Antony at pretty much every metric as well, including not getting dispossessed.
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Antony is holding our team back? Yeah you havent a fecking clue mate.
 
lsd said:
Jury is still out for me. He clearly has talent but is far too predictable and unless he develops a right foot I don't see him every justifying his price tag or being a long term regular in our team.

Garnacho looks a better player at 18 and with Amad coming back after a very successful loan I would hope he gets a chance to fight for a place in our first 11.
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as it should be , he is young and its his first season. Threads like this are fecking stupid and unnecessary.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Err, 2 of those are for Ajax.
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Fine he has 6 goals and 1 assist so far in his first season at United
Grealish has 3 goals and 6 assists in his 2nd season at City

Antony is in a new country, new league and cost £95M
good old Jackie "hes a rascal" Grealish is 4 years older cost £110M plus
has 2 more goal involvements as Antony and gets no scrutiny at all.

I wonder what it is about the mixed race foreigner that bothers people.
 
Ramshock said:
Antony is holding our team back? Yeah you havent a fecking clue mate.
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Aren't you the poster that included his Ajax stats? Yeah, if you've got said clue don't share any of it with me mate.
 
I will say he works extremely hard for the team and that is a big reason Ten Hag likes him and will give him every opportunity.
 
Raoul said:
Why does this thread exist again ?
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Because we have plenty of whiners. Yes he cost too much, but it is not his fault that this club is desperate and cant plan long term.
Antony is doing well imo, some up and downs which were to be expected. But you cant question his attitude nor his work rate. The rest will come. And since we finally have competition for positions, it will only push him further
 
El Jefe said:
I don't get why some poster's seem to be taking the criticism of him as an unjust attack on him. ETH made five signings this summer, Eriksen, Martinez, Casemiro, Malacia and Antony.

Antony is the least performing of the five and by quite a distance if we factor in expectation and transfer fees.

If we extend that to the starting 11, he's probably the player performing the least excluding the striker position which in Martial or Weghorst performance thread they get criticised for. You could argue RB also and the same would hold true in Dalot or AWBs thread. If Antony was putting in top performances this thread wouldn't exist.

With that said the biggest issue for Antony is his skillset for me. I think everyone recognises that he's 23 and only in his first season. Young players will always need time but in turn they need to show what they are capable of in order to built a trust in their potential. Antony lacks so many key skills needed to be top player in my opinion. Usually you cite decision making as the weakness of young players but in Antony’s case its a clear lack of ability so I'm not sold on the potential.
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Correct, some peoples inability to process any form of nuance is impressive. You can't express reservations about Antony without some posters shouting it down (without any rationale) or providing generic platitudes about believing in ETH
 
Fahad Jawaid said:
So we are playing an amazing season because of him scoring against Barca, City and Arsenal. Two of which happened 6 months ago, why are we not considering his recent performances which have been terrible where he has failed to score or assist in any match bar the Barca goal.

I am comparing him to Garnacho because he is also a winger and plays for Manchester United, so we can’t even compare players who are possibly his competition, is 18 years old compared to him, cost us next to nothing and playing fearlessly against a player who is a seasoned player, who can’t cross or take on his man to save his life, performing poorly and cost us 80m.

Furthermore, really do you think Rashford and Garnacho are playing well because Antony is playing so amazing and attracting all attention, for your information we also played Sancho and Bruno at RW as well and they had mixed performances but Rashford and Garnacho continued their performances, so it was never because of Antony and his close control and passing ability that they performed.

Lastly if we are not allowed to discuss the performances of players who cost 80m and are not up to much we can close the forum.

There is no doubt that we are doing very well and everybody is exteremely satisfied with ETH and our team, but the obvious weaknesses have to be highlighted and discussed or maybe you are one of those fans who would close their eyes until results are going well without accounting for performances just like Ole did sometimes and when things start catching up they become top reds and manager should be given 3 years.
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Such drama.

You've put a lot of effort into that post, but you should have stopped at 'lastly' instead of typing the ghastly phrase 'top reds' which, sadly, instantly gets you the ignore list.

Try to enjoy a game or two while we're playing well, yeah?

Innabit.
 
Matt851 said:
Correct, some peoples inability to process any form of nuance is impressive. You can't express reservations about Antony without some posters shouting it down (without any rationale) or providing generic platitudes about believing in ETH
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by saying "without rationale" means you do not want to hear facts. There is no reason to overly critique any player in their first season in a new league and new country at all.
 
Herman Toothrot said:
Such drama.

You've put a lot of effort into that post, but you should have stopped at 'lastly' instead of typing the ghastly phrase 'top reds' which, sadly, instantly gets you the ignore list.

Try to enjoy a game or two while we're playing well, yeah?

Innabit.
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They are unable to enjoy. Theres no fun left in football because of people like this.
 
Ramshock said:
by saying "without rationale" means you do not want to hear facts. There is no reason to overly critique any player in their first season in a new league and new country at all.
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Where are the facts in this thread? I agree no one should be writing him off but what's wrong with some mild criticism
 
Matt851 said:
Where are the facts in this thread? I agree no one should be writing him off but what's wrong with some mild criticism
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Nothing wrong with mild, but let's face it, some of it isn't what I would call mild
 
Ramshock said:
Fine he has 6 goals and 1 assist so far in his first season at United
Grealish has 3 goals and 6 assists in his 2nd season at City

Antony is in a new country, new league and cost £95M
good old Jackie "hes a rascal" Grealish is 4 years older cost £110M plus
has 2 more goal involvements as Antony and gets no scrutiny at all.

I wonder what it is about the mixed race foreigner that bothers people.
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There's a thread on here with people laughing at how average Grealish has been especially as he cost £100m. Your post and comparison would make a lot more sense if people were praising Grealish which they clearly aren't.

As for the bit in bold, that is just incredibly low. It can't be about just the football so there has to be something else...right?
 
El Jefe said:
There's a thread on here with people laughing at how average Grealish has been especially as he cost £100m. Your post and comparison would make a lot more sense if people were praising Grealish which they clearly aren't.

As for the bit in bold, that is just incredibly low. It can't be about just the football so there has to be something else...right?
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You need to go look at how Grealish is treated within the media and punditry and then do the same with Antony. The bit in bold is more than fair to speculate upon and is not low at all. Right?
 
pogbasformerbarber said:
I don't know why people here "worry" about a players price and constantly compare them the price. Very few players can ever justify their price when they have significant contract left at a club. It's the club that spends on him and Antony has actually been good. Maybe not "worth" the fee today in terms of price v. production...but the reason he was so expensive is that we will have him for multiple seasons. So making any final conclusions on him now is just folly.

At worst, he's a little too reliant on his left foot and needs to work a bit on his passing. Otherwise he's been very good IMHO. He's miles away from a bust. I just dont get the hate...hes hardly a problem and certainly has won a few games for us.
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It makes sense to worry about the price before the transaction is done because of the opportunity cost. Once the player is on the team, that money is gone and then it only makes sense to worry about price if you’re looking to sell and replace. Otherwise, what matters is what the player contributes and how the team functions with/without the player. But that 80 mil pounds is irrelevant.
 
Need to massively improve his decision making and get a right leg if he wants to have a future here. Hes still pretty young and 1st season in United without a preseason so I'd give him 2 seasons before writing him off
 
Ramshock said:
Malacia has hardly figured but did get criticism early on. Casemiro and Varane are multiple CL winners. Good try champ.
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Malacia did get criticism early on because of his performances not his skin colour. Just like Shaw has done for the majority of his tenure here. Remember when Williams was much better player than him??? Just stop with the racist BS card just because someone doesn't fancy him as a player. You can't get any lower on a forum than that.
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
Malacia did get criticism early on because of his performances not his skin colour. Just like Shaw has done for the majority of his tenure here. Remember when Williams was much better player than him??? Just stop with the racist BS card just because someone doesn't fancy him as a player. You can't get any lower on a forum than that.
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The skin colour/foreign nationality issue is clearly visible in football punditry don't be a naïve knob. Look at Souness and Pogba for feck sake. Antony was criticized early on for his "circus trick" and scrutiny has stuck to him ever since. Grealish has been just as flamboyant and not a peep is said about him. If you do not believe nationalism or skin colour doesn't come into play here then you are very naïve. ,

Even a bellend like Mark Goldbridge called it out ffs

GOLDBRIDGE ANTONY RANT@ - YouTube
 
He's just over half way through his first season in England and has goals against City, Arsenal, Barcelona etc I think he's been fine I don't see what the fuss is about

A young player coming to a new league, especially in a position like a winger where your expected to change games is tough and I think he's done well.

He has the fight and grit to keep improving, id bet next season he will be banging in 15+ goals and be a genuine top player for us
 
Ghostrider318 said:
Need to massively improve his decision making and get a right leg if he wants to have a future here. Hes still pretty young and 1st season in United without a preseason so I'd give him 2 seasons before writing him off
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You don’t need to be two-footed to succeed. Watch Salah or Mahrez or Di Maria.

Mostly he just needs to do things quicker which is an adjustment we often refer to when players move from abroad.
 
Ramshock said:
Fine he has 6 goals and 1 assist so far in his first season at United
Grealish has 3 goals and 6 assists in his 2nd season at City

Antony is in a new country, new league and cost £95M
good old Jackie "hes a rascal" Grealish is 4 years older cost £110M plus
has 2 more goal involvements as Antony and gets no scrutiny at all.

I wonder what it is about the mixed race foreigner that bothers people.
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Why are both fees paid overstated? Antony was widely reported as £85m (sky says £80.75m plus 4.25m in add ons. And Grealish was £100m because he had that release clause.

What’s £10m between friends?
 
Comparisons with Grealish are not quite relevant imo. They are similar in the way they are both underperforming. Grealish certainly is. Both of them seem limited in what they can achieve from their positions. None of them being a real threat. However Grealish is a square peg in a round hole. City never needed him from the beginning and because of that he's been shoehorned into a role that doesn't suit him. Grealish needs to have a much freer role to get the best out of him.
 
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