Antony: why the concern - use the player performance thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
He scored the winner against Barca. I don't care what he does next, he already justified his price just with this. :drool:
 
simplyared said:
Comparisons with Grealish are not quite relevant imo. They are similar in the way they are both underperforming. Grealish certainly is. Both of them seem limited in what they can achieve from their positions. None of them being a real threat. However Grealish is a square peg in a round hole. City never needed him from the beginning and because of that he's been shoehorned into a role that doesn't suit him. Grelish needs to have a much freer role to get the best out of him.
Click to expand...
Grealish plays off the left just like he did for Villa. Funny how you’ll make excuses for him yet edit your own thread title on Antony stating as fact that concern is justified.
 
Zoo said:
Grealish plays off the left just like he did for Villa. Funny how you’ll make excuses for him yet edit your own thread title on Antony stating as fact that concern is justified.
Click to expand...

It’s actually far more damning for Grealish. He’s 5 years older and had played PL football for years before his big move. He’s 27 years old now so if he’s not doing it now I don’t know when he’ll ‘kick on’.
 
sparx99 said:
It’s actually far more damning for Grealish. He’s 5 years older and had played PL football for years before his big move. He’s 27 years old now so if he’s not doing it now I don’t know when he’ll ‘kick on’.
Click to expand...
Probably never at City, at Villa he was the 'main' man at City he's just another option, he's not the first to basically kill their career like that
 
This thread reminds me of the early Sancho criticisms. People pointing out the obvious, and others being unwilling to accept it until it's painfully obvious.

It's usually pretty clear if a player doesn't have the tools to justify the fee. Sure he might be a good squad player in the future, but if we want to make a dent in the CL he needs to show abilities he simply doesn't have. And for the price and first team status, it is a bit disappointing.
 
He'sRaldo said:
This thread reminds me of the early Sancho criticisms. People pointing out the obvious, and others being unwilling to accept it until it's painfully obvious.

It's usually pretty clear if a player doesn't have the tools to justify the fee. Sure he might be a good squad player in the future, but if we want to make a dent in the CL he needs to show abilities he simply doesn't have. And for the price and first team status, it is a bit disappointing.
Click to expand...
You don’t have the necessary data to make that proclamation. You can have an opinion, but drawing a conclusion based on less than a half season’s worth of games is invalid. If football professionals understand it’s too early, how do you figure you can make a conclusion this early?
 
UDontMessWith24 said:
You don’t have the necessary data to make that proclamation. You can have an opinion, but drawing a conclusion based on less than a half season’s worth of games is invalid.
Click to expand...
If he somehow shows something completely different in the next half season, then of course the conclusion changes.

However half a season (and also his showings and stats at Ajax) is a decent enough amount of info to make my initial assertion. In the pro game decisions are made based on a lot less than that all the time.
 
He'sRaldo said:
If he somehow shows something completely different in the next half season, then of course the conclusion changes.

However half a season (and also his showings and stats at Ajax) is a decent enough amount of info to make my initial assertion. In the pro game decisions are made based on a lot less than that all the time.
Click to expand...
Unless it’s a complete disaster and the player is falling apart mentally, no DOF, manager, coach or scout draws a conclusion regarding a player after half a season in the strongest league in the world. That’s just factually incorrect.
 
He'sRaldo said:
This thread reminds me of the early Sancho criticisms. People pointing out the obvious, and others being unwilling to accept it until it's painfully obvious.

It's usually pretty clear if a player doesn't have the tools to justify the fee. Sure he might be a good squad player in the future, but if we want to make a dent in the CL he needs to show abilities he simply doesn't have. And for the price and first team status, it is a bit disappointing.
Click to expand...
This. Him and Martinez are more familiar with ETH's tactics so he should have an advantage. Do people think that ETH has instucted him to wait until next season to go past players and provide assists? The required acceleration will not magically appear in July. Sancho's and Antony's passing is nowhere near Silva's.
 
It’s funny, if you said we were going to sign a 23 YO from the Dutch league who, in his fist season in English football, would score in the Premier League, Europa League, FA Cup and League Cup with goals against Man City, Arsenal and Barcelona you’d probably jump at the chance.

The price tag overshadows everything.
It’s a shame. Reality is he has a lot of growth to do. Insanely one-footed, can’t seem to beat a man on the outside and not always consistent.

But then I remember who bought him, who’s coaching him and I feel better. ETH knows more than I ever will do so I trust there’s a real player in there and we’ve the best manager to get that out of him.
 
git_united said:
It makes sense to worry about the price before the transaction is done because of the opportunity cost. Once the player is on the team, that money is gone and then it only makes sense to worry about price if you’re looking to sell and replace. Otherwise, what matters is what the player contributes and how the team functions with/without the player. But that 80 mil pounds is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Thats exactly my point...
 
His biggest asset is he is left footed. Left footed right wingers are the hardest position to find players for imo. Until we have another left footed attacker, his position will be relatively safe. Notice how all the players he is being compared with ITT are right footed?

So far he’s been a one trick.pony with cutting in and shooting. That’s ok, Robben was too. Except in Antony’s case, he kinda sucks at hitting the target. But he gets them right just enough times to have scored a few goals and be able to say he’s made a difference this season.

So yes there is some cause for concern but overall he has been a net positive(but not 70m worth one). Even just by existing, he saves us the opportunity cost of playing someone like Rashford on the right. So we must persist with him for now.
 
Was this it phrased like this on purpose? "Why the concern? Beginning to look justified" works both ways; Antony is playing well / justified so why are you concerned, or the concern is looking justified because he's playing bad.
 
Last edited:
He'sRaldo said:
This thread reminds me of the early Sancho criticisms. People pointing out the obvious, and others being unwilling to accept it until it's painfully obvious.

It's usually pretty clear if a player doesn't have the tools to justify the fee. Sure he might be a good squad player in the future, but if we want to make a dent in the CL he needs to show abilities he simply doesn't have. And for the price and first team status, it is a bit disappointing.
Click to expand...
He scored in big games against City, Arsenal and Barcelona. He is capable of making a dent in Champions League matches.
 
He'sRaldo said:
This thread reminds me of the early Sancho criticisms. People pointing out the obvious, and others being unwilling to accept it until it's painfully obvious.

It's usually pretty clear if a player doesn't have the tools to justify the fee. Sure he might be a good squad player in the future, but if we want to make a dent in the CL he needs to show abilities he simply doesn't have. And for the price and first team status, it is a bit disappointing.
Click to expand...

Number of posts who used the same phrase in Rashford thread is too many to quote.

People really flatter themselves thinking that can see a talent or judge accurately very quickly.
 
I think the impact that our new transfers have had - Licha and Casemiro especially - have skewed expectations from him. He definitely needs to figure out how he's going to play in this league and find out how he develops what makes him effectively unpredictable, but I feel he has the skill to at least be a good winger for us if not a great one, and with time we'll see that. Price tags are a factor of demand and supply, hard to hold that against him.

I also think we'll see another side to him when we have a proper number 9. I remember seeing some promising link up play between him and Haller, and a few crosses too (something I have rarely seen him do in a United shirt), but he hasn't had a chance to really build that here because Martial is competing with Jones this season, and Weghorst plays more like a number 10 than a number 9 in that role upfront.
 
Some folk get too hung-up on the price tag. We massively overpaid because a) we were desperate b) Ajax had already sold key players this Summer c) left-footed wingers are harder to find d) we're Manchester United

If you forget about the fee (because really, who cares), then I think people would see Anthony for what he is, which is a system winger, a functional tool in ETHs tactical plan. He's not (currently) going to score 20 goals and get 15 assists but he's quick, he's strong, he's aggressive, he holds the ball well, he can beat a player, he draws defenders and he has a hell of a shot on him.

I think he'll be absolutely fine. He's already a 'good' player in my book and he'll only get better with time and ETHs coaching. Whether he can ever be an £85m player, whatever that is/means nowadays, remains to be seen...but that doesn't mean we have to be 'concerned'.
 
roonster09 said:
Number of posts who used the same phrase in Rashford thread is too many to quote.

People really flatter themselves thinking that can see a talent or judge accurately very quickly.
Click to expand...
I believe it has been stated multiple times in Antony discussion that the issue with Rashford was completely different.
We always knew Marcus ceiling is very high. We saw his physical attributes and ability on the ball, his TOP level was never in question. It's just he couldn't piece it together into decent performances. He looked depressed and beaten. Personally I thought he wanted to leave this place. What ETH did to him is massive turnaround, but we saw the player in him. We always saw the talent.

There is a thread about Garnacho where people argue about his potential, because he looks a super prospect with lots of quite obvious room for improvement that just need coaching. I

With Antony, he just does his thing. I certainly don't think he played better for Ajax, still seems exactly the same player with the same strengths and weaknesses. I'd even argue he has not improved since the start of the season, but at the same time he adapted quite well to the league (mostly because he knows his limitations).

I'm concerned about Antony because I see his limitations and I think it'll be difficult for him to overcome those.

If Martial doesn't make it here (very likely), it'll be down to injuries.

If Sancho doesn't make it here, it'll be because of his weak mentality, not enough drive and possibly physical weakness. He never reached the level from Dortmund days (personally he's been the biggest disappointment for me).

If Antony doesn't make it here, at the moment I'd say it'll be because someone saw a player in him that he isn't, or won't be to be precise. This is 100% on the club, and ETH in particular.

It's not a big worry (as long as we have money to spend), Antony has been mostly OK, but personally I am worried about how much can he really improve from here. I am concerned about what he can do for the team once his attacking contribution is needed more than now, as the team is flying high.
 
Borys said:
I believe it has been stated multiple times in Antony discussion that the issue with Rashford was completely different.
We always knew Marcus ceiling is very high.
Click to expand...

This wasn't the case, so many thought he was nothing but a kick and run merchant and so many "eye test" merchants were telling us how he lacks basics and even blamed Van Gaal for promoting him early.
 
Mediocre players from the academy have had far more support and patience shown towards them than Antony. The fact that some people are willing to call him names and so quickly write him off simply because of his transfer fee is ridiculous. The money is spent. Get over it. It's irrelevant. He's a part of the team like anyone else
 
Knew this thread would be a train wreck & it did nit disappoint.

fun fact:a year ago people were calling to sell rashford.
 
Lentwood said:
Some folk get too hung-up on the price tag. We massively overpaid because a) we were desperate b) Ajax had already sold key players this Summer c) left-footed wingers are harder to find d) we're Manchester United

If you forget about the fee (because really, who cares), then I think people would see Anthony for what he is, which is a system winger, a functional tool in ETHs tactical plan. He's not (currently) going to score 20 goals and get 15 assists but he's quick, he's strong, he's aggressive, he holds the ball well, he can beat a player, he draws defenders and he has a hell of a shot on him.

I think he'll be absolutely fine. He's already a 'good' player in my book and he'll only get better with time and ETHs coaching. Whether he can ever be an £85m player, whatever that is/means nowadays, remains to be seen...but that doesn't mean we have to be 'concerned'.
Click to expand...
The fee is relevant because it means we are unlikely to sign anyone else in that position for a good few years. I don't think anyone was expecting the numbers you cite but we could legitimately expect more than one assist.

Your description of him makes me wonder if you have watched him. He rarely beats a player and its even rarer for him to use this to create a chance. His shooting is occasionally good, often abysmal
 
Thread is absolutely ridiculous. Antony will come good and is one of the most promising wide player the club has purchased in recent seasons. Not insinuating he's without faults or areas of development but seeing the word conclusion in these conversations is hilarious.
 
He’s a good player and tactically well suited to Ten Hag’s game plan. His work rate is also brilliant.

I couldn’t give a monkeys about the price tag. I can’t do anything about that and neither can Antony.

Would I like him to improve his right foot and add more goals to his game? Yes. Let’s give it some time then. Irrespective, he’s already a good option to have.

Wide players at United get a hard time if they’re anything other than a Giggs/Ronaldo/Garnacho type. I sort of see why, but some folk need to widen the net a bit.
 
roonster09 said:
Number of posts who used the same phrase in Rashford thread is too many to quote.

People really flatter themselves thinking that can see a talent or judge accurately very quickly.
Click to expand...
You are right but for every Rashford there's a Welbeck. There was a civil war on here when we let him go with some saying he was easily expendable as he didn't have the ability or talent for the top while others believed it will come back to bite us.

There are many players that get written off early and rightfully so. The give him time he's got potential crowd are often wrong too. Dan James was an easy one, despite his goals in his first season so was Lukaku. Lindelof was another player many questioned his talent and ability very early on. There's many more examples to be honest.

Not saying Antony should be written off by the way but the concerns on his ceiling are very valid atm. I struggle to see what the it factor is in his game to make him a top player. While I and many others were wrong on Rashford his ability to use his pace running in behind was always what set him apart. I don't see what qualities can make Antony special.
 
b82REZ said:
Probably because it's just you patting yourself on the back for something that is far from a foregone conclusion.

It's a bit pathetic in all honesty.
Click to expand...
550+ posts for me patting myself on the back. You obviously don't get what a forum for discussion is all about. Maybe you can fill me in?
 
I don't know if people get a bit too focused on the price tag but I've been mostly fine with him so far. He can be very frustrating but then that applies to most forwards his age, and his work rate is terrific.

I don't really see it as "is he an £80m player?" though. I thought the price tag was more down to "are we in big enough need of a RW to justify overpaying for one?" to which the answer was a pretty clear "yes".

It's not just about what Antony offers, it's about the fact having him means our team has a lot more balance and allows someone like Rashford to not be shunted out on the right 50% of the time
 
simplyared said:
550+ posts for me patting myself on the back. You obviously don't get what a forum for discussion is all about. Maybe you can fill me in?
Click to expand...

The fact you keep changing the title of the thread shows you feel your frankly premature and knee jerk opinion is correct. This is you patting yourself on the back. You've added "Concern beginning to look justified" FFS. How could you be anymore oblivious?
 
3KDré said:
He and Robben aren't similar at all. Robben was rapid for a start. Antony is not wasteful with the ball, keeping it is probably his best trait. It is noticeable how much more of a right hand side we have when he is on the pitch. I think because we saw compilations of his skills and beating people in the dutch league we are expecting a different kind of player to what we will get. I don't think he has the explosiveness to beat people regularly in this league. For me he is a creator and someone very important to Ten Hags system who will help us keep the ball higher up the pitch, a left footed version of Sancho who will play nice little passes in between the lines when we begin to dominate possession more. We have Rashford to score goals on the other side, which is why I can see Ten Hag going for someone like Osimhen because as of right now the front 3 does not have enough goals in it.
Click to expand...
Sancho is a dribbler and Antony really isn't much of one, he's too one footed. He's a good passer but he's easy to pressure.
 
El Jefe said:
You are right but for every Rashford there's a Welbeck. There was a civil war on here when we let him go with some saying he was easily expendable as he didn't have the ability or talent for the top while others believed it will come back to bite us.

There are many players that get written off early and rightfully so. The give him time he's got potential crowd are often wrong too. Dan James was an easy one, despite his goals in his first season so was Lukaku. Lindelof was another player many questioned his talent and ability very early on. There's many more examples to be honest.

Not saying Antony should be written off by the way but the concerns on his ceiling are very valid atm. I struggle to see what the it factor is in his game to make him a top player. While I and many others were wrong on Rashford his ability to use his pace running in behind was always what set him apart. I don't see what qualities can make Antony special.
Click to expand...

Ofcourse people can have concerns on his ceiling (I hate that term), I still stand by what I said, people flatter themselves when they think they can judge player with few games and make definitive statements.

There are so many attributes that set Rashford apart from other players but his critics always came up with how he lacked most basic skill, football IQ and his fundamentals are all wrong. Most hilarious was people coming up with "Kick and run merchant" when most of the players named him as one of the most skillful player in the squad.

People are disappointed by Antony as they expect 100 million player when he isn't one. He is lot better than what many say here, what he brings to the team are just discarded as if they are offered by any winger. He should improve on his final third play, especially his final passes but his game in transition and between boxes is good. He also beats defender lot of times but for some reason doesn't back himself to continue the dribble or cut back with his weaker foot. Picking up players in final third is something that can be worked on. Also on counter he makes lot of good runs, just in last game or before that he made 2-3 very good runs on counter and every single time Bruno picked wrong pass to the left wing.
 
b82REZ said:
The fact you keep changing the title of the thread shows you feel your frankly premature and knee jerk opinion is correct. This is you patting yourself on the back. You've added "Concern beginning to look justified" FFS. How could you be anymore oblivious?
Click to expand...
Read the OP! I was backing the player amongst a great deal of posters showing concern and almost writing him off. Looking at his recent games since he came back I'm seeing signs of a player who doesn't appear to have the skillset or potential I thought he had. Along with my own recent assessment I adjusted the title accordingly. In other words maybe the concern was justified. As I said a forum is for discussion.
So what's your beef?
 
Runs down the wing, cuts in or tries a fancy backheel or dribble maneuver and then usually loses it. If he gets a lucky bounce off the defender and keeps the ball, he will cut in and then try to curl the ball into the opposite corner, usually with minimal success. Is that the guy we are discussing?

The young lad on the other wing is streets ahead of him at just 19.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.