Antony: why the concern - use the player performance thread

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Idxomer said:
The concern is simply because his attacking output is very poor and that's not even about his goals and assists. His underlying stats paint a bad picture for a player in his position at a big club.

Of course, he makes us more functional but that's just because of the fact we have no other left-footed winger in the squad though we have one on our books with more potential.
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I just don't see how people don't get this. No one is underselling his ability to provide balance and his workrate off the ball but his creativity its truly terrible so far.

If he was a high scoring player you'd accept his lack of creativity but he's not a reliable scorer either. My guess he has the worst goals to mins ratio of all our forward players excluding Weghorst and Elanga.

Couple this with thr fact he has the same number of assists as AWB and Pellestri and it doesn't look pretty.

I get that not every player is a dynamic speed merchant outwide. I'm guessing Antony is meant to be a Bernardo Silva or Alex Hleb type but the were/are incredible dribblers who made penetrating vertical moves into the box. Antony first of all is an average dribbler and even when he does beat his man it's rarely leads to anything as he dribbles away from the danger area.

He could always come good with time but I won't ever pretend like being hard working and keeping possession is enough for a wide player at a top club.
 
Antony is a great signing. Underwhelming only because of the price. In a way he reminds me of 90s Giggs, with more skills, only thing I think Antony has the ability to be a more regular goal scorer.

But at present what he does playing on the right is that he constantly challenges the LB and LCB and fatigues them. Even when he’s not creating goal scoring chances or scoring himself, this creates spaces, and as the game goes on increases the likelihood of them making mistakes.

These are things stats won’t tell you.
 
Stig said:
When will he learn to kick the ball with his right foot ?
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If that’s all it takes to unlock his potential there will be some spectacular bad takes in this thread in a season or so.
 
Red in STL said:
The focus is on the price differential which IMO is meaningless, the notion that player is not worth 85 million or whatever but would be a good player at 40 million is ludicrous, if he does what you want he's worth whatever you want to pay for him, if doesn't do the job then it doesn't matter whether he was 5 million or 85
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This just isn’t how things work. Players have different valuations based on what they offer. Malacia at £12M is a good buy. Malacia at £60M is not a good buy.
 
AlPistacho said:
Antony is a great signing. Underwhelming only because of the price. In a way he reminds me of 90s Giggs, with more skills, only thing I think Antony has the ability to be a more regular goal scorer.

But at present what he does playing on the right is that he constantly challenges the LB and LCB and fatigues them. Even when he’s not creating goal scoring chances or scoring himself, this creates spaces, and as the game goes on increases the likelihood of them making mistakes.

These are things stats won’t tell you.
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Jeez. Absolutely nothing about him reminds me of 90’s Giggs
 
AlPistacho said:
Antony is a great signing. Underwhelming only because of the price. In a way he reminds me of 90s Giggs, with more skills, only thing I think Antony has the ability to be a more regular goal scorer.

But at present what he does playing on the right is that he constantly challenges the LB and LCB and fatigues them. Even when he’s not creating goal scoring chances or scoring himself, this creates spaces, and as the game goes on increases the likelihood of them making mistakes.

These are things stats won’t tell you.
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I can't believe the things I read on here at times :lol:
 
Maluco said:
He makes our team better than Grealish/Darwin/Mudryk make their teams, so on that basis I am very happy with him.

I thought the final was one of his best games so far for us, and that can only be a good sign.
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TBH we are at a point where a team our size SHOULD start being concerned about the abilities he has shown. For the fee paid and the lack of threat presented it is concerning. I would be fine with him being a third option out on the flank, but this is where he needs to show us that he's a better player than that.

The concern with him is not the final contribution or his work rate. Its the level of threat he provides. He's not offering much on the ball in attack and is not presenting a threat off the ball either. When Amad comes back next season, its an issue that may need to evaluated if it continues like this. Which is not to say that he's underperforming, but rather he may simply not be a starting level winger for us, and that's ok.
 
Already offers much more than Sancho overall IMO, while just costing slightly more and arguable has higher potential.

Yes Antony has poor decision making at the moment which is often frustrating, but he makes up for it with his high intensity going both ways, as well as being a good outlet ball in a lot of scenarios since he likes to hug the touch line to receive a pass whereas on the left flank our LW is asked to run in behind more. We have a good record with Antony on the pitch and EtH has mentioned that - it shows that he brings some intangibles that are not so obvious to the casual observer or translated in offensive output numbers.

Also don't forget that Antony already has 5 goals this season despite appearing underwhelming quite often, and these goals include massively clutch ones vs Arsenal and Barcelona.

Yes the price tag is probably hanging over him considering the output of goals/assists, but he's still young and this is literally his first season in a competitive European league so I would give him time. I'm sure the coaching staff is working with him to improve his decision making and final ball - with improvements in those areas he could easily double his offensive output IMO.
 
I think he does a good job and get into good areas where he can provide more assist but lack of right foot lets him down time and time again….

Perhaps a summer break individual training will Help him a lot….

Fees wasn’t his choice …
 
I dont get the infatuation with criticising this kid. He is a kid and already has 8 goals and 3 assists. The media darling that is Jack Grealish who cost more and is 5 years older has a total of 3 goals and 6 assists. Where is the concern from people in football for him?
 
Ramshock said:
I dont get the infatuation with criticising this kid. He is a kid and already has 8 goals and 3 assists. The media darling that is Jack Grealish who cost more and is 5 years older has a total of 3 goals and 6 assists. Where is the concern from people in football for him?
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Err, 2 of those are for Ajax.
 
AlPistacho said:
Antony is a great signing. Underwhelming only because of the price. In a way he reminds me of 90s Giggs, with more skills, only thing I think Antony has the ability to be a more regular goal scorer.

But at present what he does playing on the right is that he constantly challenges the LB and LCB and fatigues them. Even when he’s not creating goal scoring chances or scoring himself, this creates spaces, and as the game goes on increases the likelihood of them making mistakes.

These are things stats won’t tell you.
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I won't even comment the Giggs remark.

As for constantly challenging, is this mentally then or what? Because he's not taking them on, that's for sure.

AlPistacho said:
Giggs in the 90s wasn’t a regular goal scorer or high in assists. He was actually often viewed as quite wasteful on a week to week basis
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This is a weird statement. Giggs was quite consistent throughout his career.

Giggs (league stats):
Giggs 1992-96: 141 games - 34 goals - 33 assists - 0,475 G/A per game
Giggs 1996-00: 109 games - 20 goals - 27 assists - 0,431 G/A per game
Giggs 2000-04: 125 games - 27 goals - 30 assists - 0,456 G/A per game
Giggs 2004-08: 116 games - 14 goals - 33 assists - 0,405 G/A per game
Giggs 2008-14: 137 games - 13 goals - 38 assists - 0,372 G/A per game
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Giggs 1992-14: 628 games - 108 goals - 161 assists - 0,428 G/A per game

Ramshock said:
I dont get the infatuation with criticising this kid. He is a kid and already has 8 goals and 3 assists. The media darling that is Jack Grealish who cost more and is 5 years older has a total of 3 goals and 6 assists. Where is the concern from people in football for him?
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Grealish isn't holding our team back. It's a plus for us if he's mediocre. Why would we waste energy on that? Plus, for what it's worth, Grealish beats Antony at pretty much every metric as well, including not getting dispossessed.
 
AlPistacho said:
Giggs in the 90s wasn’t a regular goal scorer or high in assists. He was actually often viewed as quite wasteful on a week to week basis
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Nothing about Antony is similar to 90s Giggs, absolutely nothing. Giggs was quick, exciting, direct, took risks, and a flair player. He was a regular goalscorer and assister, other than when he was dating Dani Behr, and the back half of the 90s where his seasons were frequently disrupted by hamstring injuries.
 
Lets be fair. Not even the manager is happy with him. Otherwise he wouldn't sub him off.
Antony has just not delivered. Hopefully he can start showing qualities we've not yet seen.
 
MiceOnMeth said:
Still feels like he struggles to beat his man...
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It is more than just a feeling. ETH is great but I can't see why he bought Antony for 85m. He would have been overpriced even if we pulled the trigger in June at 55m. We now have two slow expensive wingers who can't beat their men.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
It is more than just a feeling. ETH is great but I can't see why he bought Antony for 85m. He would have been overpriced even if we pulled the trigger in June at 55m. We now have two slow expensive wingers who can't beat their men.
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At least do your research. He has been clocked at 35.7kph which is anything but slow.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Actually, I think it is. AWB has looked good with or without him, and Dalot was already playing better last season as well as for Portugal. Unless Antony is responsible for that too.
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That’s because Bruno gets moved out there who holds the ball up wide but not as well as Antony does.
Antony holds the ball up and allows the FB to get forward and is very good at interplay in tight areas which sets the FB free. That’s the advantage of Antony never going on the outside, he either goes in or creates space for the FB to overlap and plays them the ball
 
I think he was worth the risk, maybe overpriced.. but that was the market we were in at the time, he showed enough at Ajax to deserve a chance, he has the right attitude to be a United player, he just needs to work out the league and how to be effective in the team, I think we need to give him a bit of a break, he’ll be fine.. I’d take him any day over Elanga
 
AlPistacho said:
Antony is a great signing. Underwhelming only because of the price. In a way he reminds me of 90s Giggs, with more skills, only thing I think Antony has the ability to be a more regular goal scorer.

But at present what he does playing on the right is that he constantly challenges the LB and LCB and fatigues them. Even when he’s not creating goal scoring chances or scoring himself, this creates spaces, and as the game goes on increases the likelihood of them making mistakes.

These are things stats won’t tell you.
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How to say you have never watched Giggs play without saying you havn't watched Giggs play
 
There is a lack of patience with this kid from a lot of the caf.
It was only last week that he massively contributed in us beating Barcelona, but hey, seems we always have to find some negatives.
 
Red Royal said:
There is a lack of patience with this kid from a lot of the caf.
It was only last week that he massively contributed in us beating Barcelona, but hey, seems we always have to find some negatives.
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I wonder if there's an age differential in posters views, I get the feeling that older posters are likley to be more patient with players and younger ones less so - of couse I could be barking up the wrong tree
 
Messier1994 said:
I think a lot of it also comes from understanding the winger’s role in ETHs system. Especially when we have a LW that is more of a forward.

ETHs goal is to get the team really high up the pitch, more or less only stay back with three players, which forced the opponents to defend with 7-8 players. From there you play a really high defense and you have every chance to win back possession directly after you have lost the ball.

To get there, it’s essential to have a winger that can lick the line, take a pass despite being pressured, and maintain possession high up pitch while the rest of the team moves up. I can guarantee that ETH don’t mind Antony getting a pass high up on the right side, showboat a bit, then turn out against the side line and pass to a CM.

Antony is really strong on the ball in those situations. They have different styles, but that is what Bernado Silva does for City.

In addition, the winger are the most dangerous in 1 on 1 situation in more counter attack style of situations, in more up and down the pitch style of play.

I 100% agree with the notion that there are room for improvement in Antony’s game. But a lot of the things he does — that he is called out for — is more or less by design. ETH will always prefer a winger who maintains possession of the ball and gets the team up field over a winger who lose possession 9 of 10 times, to get by his guy and get a shot off the 10th time.
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This needs to be pinned!
 
AlPistacho said:
Giggs in the 90s wasn’t a regular goal scorer or high in assists. He was actually often viewed as quite wasteful on a week to week basis
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I think Antony is a good player, but come on, there’s absolutely nothing at all of Giggs about him…
 
Telsim said:
Antony has 6 goals and 1 assist this season. Raphinha has 7 goals and 9 assists this season. He also had 17 goals and 12 assists in 60-something games with Leeds, who were absolutely horrendous, so it's not like he doesn't know the Premier League. And he is starting ahead of Antony in the NT. Just a superior player overall, but for far less money. I didn't rate him that much before, but I started to change my mind after having to watch Antony.

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But that ship sailed anyway. Hopefully, Amad comes good next season.
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They have different styles but Raphina isn’t out performing him this year
Rashford was second fiddle in the NT, I don’t give much attention to that
We’d be far too open on the wing with Raphina for me
 
Sometimes I draw parallels between him and a younger Arjen Robben. It took many years and 3 clubs for Robben to become a player to fear about at the highest level because he was also very wasteful with the ball and had that tendency of hanging onto the ball for too long. What matters is that he learns enough to improve his decision-making process.
 
Red in STL said:
I wonder if there's an age differential in posters views, I get the feeling that older posters are likley to be more patient with players and younger ones less so - of couse I could be barking up the wrong tree
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I am usually quite patient with players. I still believe in Sancho, and always saw something in Wan Bissaka. With Antony though, I just don't see the potential. He isn't playing bad, overall he's OK i think, but I look at him and don't see a long term winger for United. Not with his limitations that I believe will be very difficult to overcome.

We have a pretty good picture of what Antony is / and what he is not at this stage.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Sometimes I draw parallels between him and a younger Arjen Robben. It took many years and 3 clubs for Robben to become a player to fear about at the highest level because he was also very wasteful with the ball and had that tendency of hanging onto the ball for too long. What matters is that he learns enough to improve his decision-making process.
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He and Robben aren't similar at all. Robben was rapid for a start. Antony is not wasteful with the ball, keeping it is probably his best trait. It is noticeable how much more of a right hand side we have when he is on the pitch. I think because we saw compilations of his skills and beating people in the dutch league we are expecting a different kind of player to what we will get. I don't think he has the explosiveness to beat people regularly in this league. For me he is a creator and someone very important to Ten Hags system who will help us keep the ball higher up the pitch, a left footed version of Sancho who will play nice little passes in between the lines when we begin to dominate possession more. We have Rashford to score goals on the other side, which is why I can see Ten Hag going for someone like Osimhen because as of right now the front 3 does not have enough goals in it.
 
He feels like a slow, one footed CAM up the right side of the pitch, instructed to keep possession and provide width and look for the occasional key pass or shot. He's very young, and has the hunger to improve, but there's definitely reasonable questions being asked.
 
PSV said:
I won't even comment the Giggs remark.

As for constantly challenging, is this mentally then or what? Because he's not taking them on, that's for sure.

This is a weird statement. Giggs was quite consistent throughout his career.

Giggs (league stats):
Giggs 1992-96: 141 games - 34 goals - 33 assists - 0,475 G/A per game
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Thanks for proving my point. Giggs in his first 4 seasons had a similar goals to game ratio that Antony has in his first 6 months. With Giggs that was over over 4 seasons, with Antony it’s just 26 matches so more than likely he will improve. Giggs in his 4 seasons goal every 4.1 matches Vs Antony goal every 4.6 matches.
 
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acnumber9 said:
Your profile says you are 26 and it shows with that post.
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Like I just pointed out. Giggs in his first 4 seasons had a similar goal to game ratio that Antony has in his 6 months. But I understand the passing of time and old age can distort things.
 
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elisha27 said:
Nothing about Antony is similar to 90s Giggs, absolutely nothing. Giggs was quick, exciting, direct, took risks, and a flair player. He was a regular goalscorer and assister, other than when he was dating Dani Behr, and the back half of the 90s where his seasons were frequently disrupted by hamstring injuries.
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He had a similar goals to game ratio as Antony in his first 4 seasons. So either Antony also scores a lot of goals, or people are wrong about the frequency with which Giggs scored (goals)
 
This is his first season at our club and even if he isn't too lethal at the moment, I'd always be fond of that winning goal against Barcelona. We have waited for this Barca revenge for what, 14 years already?
 
MiceOnMeth said:
Still feels like he struggles to beat his man...
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I think that was always going to be the case.

All the ajax fans warned us he wasn't going to be the second coming of Giggs or arjen robben.

In fact they likened him to more of a Juan Mata type. Someone who will create but not necessarily wow you with pace and explosive athleticism. But he fits perfectly in a pressing/possession based style of play just on the back of his work rate.

He has a wand of a left foot though. I have no doubts he will continue to improve and score/assist more.
 
AlPistacho said:
Thanks for proving my point. Giggs in his first 4 seasons had a similar goals to game ratio that Antony has in his first 6 months. With Giggs that was over over 4 seasons, with Antony it’s just 26 matches so more than likely he will improve. Giggs in his 4 seasons goal every 4.1 matches Vs Antony goal every 4.6 matches.
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Honestly, give up on the Giggs comparison. There's the difference in level, but also just a complete difference in style. There's absolutely no similarity.
 
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