Arguing in the forum on 1 performance where he was a threat. Antony is a Luxury player for United, he has taken over Pogba's role. An expensive and wonderful who isn't consistent which we would like. Where is Pogba now? I see similarities between the 2 players. If Antony continues to play the way he plays now. He will either be sold at a loss or leaves on a free transfer. Players bought like a fraction of his fee is providing almost the same output as he is.
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And how exactly is the fee his fault? He can't magically produce higher numbers because he cost £85m and not £40m. Maybe you should give him more than 15 Premier League games before judging a player. Do you remember Vidic? Evra? They were awful at first, but adapted. It's not that simple when you get into a new league. Some players can do it right away, others won't.
And tell me another right winger we could have signed that would be a much better option than Antony.
What Arteta has done at Arsenal or Klopp and Guardiola have done at Liverpool/City is that they've implemented a idea that has then developed into something where their teams have a strong build up phase, which allows them to dominate the game. And without having the ability to control the first phase of the build up they can't control the game. And if you can control the first phase, you control the game and hence push the opponent back into a deeper block.
And the reason the first phase of the build up is important to control (especially nowadays) is because many teams have now adopted the method of defending from the front, in packs. And if your players are weak on the ball in the build up phase then it will be a struggle to progress play through the opponent's coordinated pressure, which will mean it will be difficult to effectively progress the play. And the build up begins with the free man in the first phase who will be the goalkeeper. The goalkeeper has to be strong in that regard and take the initiative when it comes to breaking a line or clipping a ball to either fullback whilst being pressured.
For United to become a proactive attacking team with the added ability to aggressively press high up the pitch, control has to be exerted in the build up phase. You can't control the game in possession without controlling the first phase against teams who press high. And for us to close the gap on Arsenal and City, we have to collectively upgrade upon those players who are weak on the ball when it comes progressing play (effectively) in the build up phase.
So like I've said before, we need a RB, GK and CM who provide a high level of technical security on the ball. And if we can get the right players in who take the initiative on the ball, instead of passing responsibility on to others. We will at the very least be taking steps towards creating a proactive attacking team, which will have the potential to dominate the ball in a compact high block.
The likes of Arsenal, City and even Brighton score more goals than us, create more goals than us and create more chances generally due to their teams being superior to us in the first phase of the build up. So it's not a surprise a player like Mitoma at Brighton is very productive due to him playing in a team that is setup to exert control which allows for more possessional control and more possesion.
The return of Casemiro and Eriksen will hopefully get us UCL football, then it depends on what we've got to spend.
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Ah the personal attack when the argument runs out of juice
Excellent, I’ll take it from here petal
Are you suggesting for 100 million pounds the best player you could get is Antony ?
Show me a link he cost 100mil pounds
^?
Excellent post as per usual. Yeah I hope ETH sees this, I'm convinced he does and thats maybe contract talks are stalling. Maybe he'll signe with a reduced salary and we'll replace him next summer although it should be done this summer really.
Either way the op is right. For the money he cost we could and should have signed a better player
Who, out of interest? I'm not saying Antony represents good value, but the likes of Nunez and Mudryk are forwards that went to big teams and cost similar (or more) amounts and look similarly underwhelming for the price paid, if not moreso.
haha - spot on!
Maybe stop looking at players who cost around 100m euros they all more or less flops
Mitoma and Kvaratshkhelia are 2 examples of players who cost far less. Liverpool signed Diaz for far less too and they are performing at a higher level. Saying that though even a smart cheaper signing like Trossard would have been useful. I would have taken someone like Pino.
I think Antony is a decent player though and its his first PL season, hes done ok. We massively overpaid though and I don’t think it was necessary. May as well have gone all out for someone more proven when getting into that price range
Why do you keep saying 100 million pounds? He didn't cost that, so why do you add an extra £15m? Is it because you think your argument is weak as it is and you want to strengthen it?
And no, I'm asking which right winger that we could have signed instead of him that would very likely do better than him and that fits Ten Hag's game plan. So, give me some examples.
Luis Diaz, Mitoma and Kvaratskhelia are all left wingers/left forwards. We needed a right winger, so I'm just curious which right wingers that would be available that would perform "a lot better than Antony". Yeremi Pino is interesting, but I think he fits perfectly for La Liga as he's weaker than Antony and would probably struggle in Premier League right now as well. For what it's worth, I think Trossard is a good shout (even though he also primarily is a left winger) and think he would be great for us, but he's 29 this year and Ten Hag is looking to build a younger squad.
Pino's release clause was also raised to about €80m when he signed his new contract a couple of years ago. You aren't getting him for much less than Anthony. I also agree that he'd probably struggle in the EPL, at least to begin with.
The op referenced Nunez and Mudryk as examples to justify cost, so quite obviously giving examples of players who cost far less and were performing alot better was the point there.
The overall point was we didn't need to spend 95m euros on a right winger who is far from proven, regardless if ETH knew him already or not.
As for example I already mentioned Pino and Trossard as smarter signings. Antony for far less money also would have been fine. For the money we paid though you do need better quality than Antony.
Antony is struggling in the PL…
How is Pino a smarter signing than Antony? As @Crimson King pointed out above, his release clause is almost similar to what Antony cost, and he is weaker than Antony who, as you already pointed out, is struggling in the league. I do agree with you that we overpaid, but there's not many right wingers out there that would be available so we got desperate. Blame Murtough. Besides, Antony has played 15 Premier League games this season. Don't you think it's worth giving him more time, despite the fact that we overpaid? That's not on him.
So you’re basically suggesting no club can negotiate for a player without paying the release clause
Its your opinion he would struggle in the PL its not mine. I would have preferred we went for someone like him and Im pretty sure he wouldn't cost the 80m clause.
Again though they were 2 suggestions, there are also other players out there. The main point is for 95m euros you need to sign better quality especially as it meant we couldn't spend elsewhere (striker position) and couldn't do much in Jan either (since the Antony signing went into next seasons budget)
Also worth remembering, Antony's 3 PL goals came in his first three games, he has no goals or assists in the PL since that City game back in September.
I couldn't give a feck about what he does against Reading or Charlton. Tbf to him his EL goals against Barca and Betis were great goals and important but the PL is where most games are played and he's done very little there. We saw Memphis look like a totally different player in the EL but could never crack the league.
PL defenders know all about him now, he's so easy to stop and only has about two moves in his arsenal.
If you knew how weak he was, it would be your opinion as well. He's not ready to play for us as a starter, and Antony is clearly better right now. He's scored against City, Arsenal and Barcelona as well so really not the failure a lot of people make him out to be. I do expect a lot more from him, though, and I'm confident it will come. Players adapt differently. For instance, no one could possibly have imagined Mitoma would perform like he does. He's 25 year old and came from the Belgian league having started his professional career at the age of 22. At the time, he wouldn't have been a smarter signing. But if you're Captain Hindsight, of course..
And again, some of you keep saying there are a lot of other players out there that would be better, but fail to mention these players. You might be the first one that actually did - Pino - but he's not a better player.
He's so easy to stop, but so hard to take the ball from. I think it comes down to his lack of confidence really more than anything else. He doesn't seem to want to lose the ball so he doesn't take players on as much as he should. But we've seen that he's able to do it and he has way more than two moves.
“If you knew how weak he was” we can end it there.
No one said Mitoma would have been a smarter signing either. He was a counter example to Nunez and Mudryk examples given by the op
There is no point discussing anything with you. Sometimes the obsession to justify silly things this club does is funny, we massively overpaid for Antony that is clear, its not hindsight and plenty said and knew it at the time
Likewise. You've seen a compilation of Pino on YouTube and somehow he's a smarter signing than Antony. You know nothing about him.
The fact is you've given Antony 1132 Premier League minutes before you're onto him like a bloodhound. So let's say next season he gets 14 goals and 9 assists. Will he be worth the £85m then or will you still be of the opinion that we should have signed another player instead?
This is a great summary.
Football styles change, and at the moment the high press is king. Even mid-level PL clubs are drilled to do it very well. So, as you've pointed out, top teams have focused on being able to play out from the back more than ever. We can't do it very well, so a huge chunk of PL teams are set up with the tools to hurt us.
For what it's worth, it's obvious that EtH knows this. It's why he signed Martinez and Anthony (gets a lot of stick for not being direct, but his role is to help us keep possession high up the pitch), and wanted FdJ. It's why he uses Eriksen deeper with Casemiro. Neither of them are ideal for helping to play out from the back and still get caught out more than he'd like, but they're better than anything else we have at the moment. When they're both not playing it really gets painful watching our first build up phase.
The problem is that I don't see us adequately fixing each of those problem positions you've highlighted this summer. Mainly because signing a ST is such a big issue to deal with first. This is why we'll probably have to persevere with DDG for the time being. My hope is that we at least get in a better RB or a young CM more suitable to play this way, preferably both, so at least we're not so reliant on Casemiro/Eriksen being available.
I don't think it's fair to blame EtH for a lot of the issues we've seen lately, like some on this site have started to do. The issues were always there, he had just done a really good job of finding work arounds up until now. Something had to give, and I just think the build up of games, lack of prep time between them, and mostly the loss of too many key personnel, has finally caught up with him. People even seem to forget that we lost Garnacho for the rest of the season, who is our only direct attacker and genuine goal threat after Rashford. It shouldn't be an 18 year old playing his first season in the senior squad, but it just is right now.
The squad is just so out of touch in some areas with what a title winning team needs to be at the moment, and that's down to the lack of future planning and recruitment from the board. I also don't think Ole understood this, and seemed to be focusing much more on being a counterattack team long term, as he saw this as the 'United Way'. Because of this we're now stuck with players like Maguire and AWB. Strong defenders, but pretty useless in the first build up phase or playing a high line. EtH would have never signed these guys.
1. I’m not onto Antony read my posts properly. Saying the club massively overpaid for him and should have signed someone else (for that price range) does not equal being onto him. Its just acknowledging facts
2. If you believe someone having a different opinion than you of a player means they watch them on youtube, well says alot about your arrogance.
Fact is Antony could develop into a good player for us, hes been useful and has good attributes. Its also a fact that we needed more for 95m euros, especially when that fee hampered other squad needs
So you wanted to sign a player who costs about the same and who will most likely have also struggled to adapt to the PL? He's also a right footed RW, so a very different type of player.
One of the other posters was just pointing out that you listed a bunch of LW. We needed a RW, and there just aren't many out there at the moment. The best two in the PL right now are probably Saka and Mahrez. Who could we have signed last summer that's near the same level as them two? I don't think there was anyone.
We opted for Antony, mostly because the manager knew him and knew he could play the style he wants to impose. We overpaid, obviously, but that's not Anthony's fault.
I don't think Anthony is our biggest issue. Other than lacking a ST, we just don't have the players to beat a press and keep a team pinned back in their own half. If we could do that, you'd probably see a much more effective Anthony.
Villarreal are one of those clubs that rarely sell a player they want to keep for less than the release clause. Similar to Bilbao.
Especially when it's Man Utd that come calling. Blame Woodward for that.
No because I don’t think he would have cost the same.
Antony isn’t our biggest issue but that easn’t the question. The question was whether or not we could/should have done better with the investment or not
And yet they have never received a transfer fee above 40m
Perhaps that is because they didn't end up selling them due to the player's release clause being higher than what the buying team is willing to pay? Big teams that can afford these clauses don't tend to look at players from Villarreal.
Or its because they have not had players that would command such a fee
But such as who? With the deadline approaching, people consistently throw out these "WELL WE SHOULD Have GOT SOMEONE BETTER FOR CHEAPER" then proceed to name no one and continue this weird argument.
Already named 2
I would have also preferred we actually signed Ziyech and waited till Jan/Summer to look at Chiesa
Or went after Lozano from Napoli
The main point though is overspending is hardly ever the right option. It has a proven track record of failure.
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He's a massive talent, 20 years old and developing perfectly in Villarreal, they have absolutely no reason to sell, his contract expires in 2027 but for some reason they're going to sell him for €40m or something?
Theres no reason for any club to sell anyone for less than the release clause ever. It never happens ever
My question to you is why you think it's likely. He's their "star" and supposedly going to sell him for a lot less than the release clause.
Right firstly nowhere have I said they would sell him for 40m.
Secondly I said I think he could have been signed for less than the release. Mainly because it would have been a record fee for the club and the player (if he wanted to move to a bigger club) could put pressure on the club.
Also because it was reported in the summer that the club were (despite your assertions) willing to negotiate with us for a player below the release clause in (Pau Torres)
But anyway, like I said previously I would have preferred the player. I would have preferred other players also.
I liked Antony, just not for that fee. I would have preferred we signed a cheaper right winger and signed a striker which was at the time during the summer the debate over the use of funds.
Or if we were going to pay that type of fee go balls deeps and get a proper proven forward or waited till after the world cup for one to become available.
They still rarely sell players they want to keep, especially when big clubs come calling. They normally have to force their way out of run the contract down.
To be honest, you might well be right that Pino would have cost slightly less than his release clause, but that's more because he hasn't really kicked on as much as people thought he would have when he made his debut as a teenager. Not by much though, as they love the guy. Still a good player though and very young.
Anyway, he's not good enough for United at the moment I don't think, so hardly worth this discussion about him as an alternative to Anthony.
Yeah. To not register an assist or goal in the PL since September simply isn't good enough. Dan James didn't even go this long between PL returns for us and we can all agree he wasn't the answer either.
I just don't think this Antony fellow is that good personally. He has too many flaws in his game to become a top player in a difficult league.
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