Antonio Valencia... | Will wear #25 shirt from this point onwards by request

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Can someone find a GIF of where we gave it away due to Rafael and Valencia not being on the same wavelength?
 
He was abysmal and has been for a very long time, looks lost in possesion and takes an eternity to make a decision. Clumsy and cumbersome in 'control' of the ball. Needs dropping for a while.
 
Did anyone noticed that for many games this season, opponents starts to doubling up on Toni? It doesn't help that he is also too slow to decide whether he needs to cross high or low or make 180 degree turn & pass back. Running with the ball however he is quite unstoppable, so i don't buy that BS that he not back to his best. He is just very limited footballer & opponents are well aware of his limitation hence render him useless when we got into possession.
 
Hopefully he comes back in to form soon, otherwise this will be more of a Torres drop in quality rather than a shitty patch.

You only need to compare early season Giggs to now to see how much difference being back in form can do for you.
 
SAFs reactions to the stuff he produces atm is very telling. Also he finally seems to have lost his place in our first XI. I really hope for him that he'll be the old same again soon
 
This is going to be the riskiest thing I've said on RedCafe and I'm prepared for stick, but...

I think Valencia should be sold.

Firstly, this is not knee-jerk to his form. All players have bad form and I'm confident Valencia will improve. The problem is, we seem to have trouble playing a well-balanced team anytime Valencia is involved.

Because he is such a stark contrast to our attacking fluidity and versatility, in that he is very one-dimensional, he is forcing other players to play out of position. I want to see a team that can successfully play all of Kagawa, Rooney and Van Persie.

It seems for that to happen we would have to swap Valencia for more of a wide forward and play similar to the way Inter did under Mourinho. To be clear, I'm not saying we should copy them, but it's the closest comparison I can come up with to how I think Fergie ideally wants to play.

Inter 2010:



A team very attacking on paper, but a team which knew it's defensive capabilities. Two defensive-minded CM's, two wide forwards who would help defend from the front and they key to it all, Sneijder. An attacking midfielder as the link, could drop back when defending and bomb forward when attacking.

I dare say our interest in Sneijder could be explained by a willingness to play this sort of style. Kagawa signed last summer can play that role and is possibly the replacement in missing out on Sneijder the previous summer.

Here is how United could potentially play...



I don't know if the thinking behind Zaha could be related in wanting to play this way. As I understand, he is more of a wide forward who can also play up front when needed. But I'll learn more about him and how United want to utilize him next season.

Either way, it's a team with lovely attacking prowess. Kagawa in his favored role, Van Persie in his. Rooney in between, deep enough to get a lot of the ball and attacking enough to score goals.

I think it uses all of our attacking talent well, and where I think it trumps Inter's 2010 team is that every single one of that front 4 can interchange. It would be impossible to mark.

I have nothing against Valencia, I love the bloke. But I think the possibilities with this team are endless and exciting as hell. I think Valencia just doesn't fit in to the system and gets in the way of what we can play without him. I get a bit of a Berbatov feeling with him, he's talented as hell but just doesn't quite work here. That could possibly be why he has under-performed this season.

Anyway i'm prepared for you all to disagree, but it's just how I feel.
 
I suggested he be moved on in the near future (or made a full-time RB) last summer. We're moving towards a short-passing style of play and he doesn't fit in. At this point, however, it seems more likely that we'll sell Nani in the summer and retain Valencia, which seems utterly absurd.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
This is going to be the riskiest thing I've said on RedCafe and I'm prepared for stick, but...

I think Valencia should be sold.

Firstly, this is not knee-jerk to his form. All players have bad form and I'm confident Valencia will improve. The problem is, we seem to have trouble playing a well-balanced team anytime Valencia is involved.

Because he is such a stark contrast to our attacking fluidity and versatility, in that he is very one-dimensional, he is forcing other players to play out of position. I want to see a team that can successfully play all of Kagawa, Rooney and Van Persie.

It seems for that to happen we would have to swap Valencia for more of a wide forward and play similar to the way Inter did under Mourinho. To be clear, I'm not saying we should copy them, but it's the closest comparison I can come up with to how I think Fergie ideally wants to play.

Inter 2010:



A team very attacking on paper, but a team which knew it's defensive capabilities. Two defensive-minded CM's, two wide forwards who would help defend from the front and they key to it all, Sneijder. An attacking midfielder as the link, could drop back when defending and bomb forward when attacking.

I dare say our interest in Sneijder could be explained by a willingness to play this sort of style. Kagawa signed last summer can play that role and is possibly the replacement in missing out on Sneijder the previous summer.

Here is how United could potentially play...



I don't know if the thinking behind Zaha could be related in wanting to play this way. As I understand, he is more of a wide forward who can also play up front when needed. But I'll learn more about him and how United want to utilize him next season.

Either way, it's a team with lovely attacking prowess. Kagawa in his favored role, Van Persie in his. Rooney in between, deep enough to get a lot of the ball and attacking enough to score goals.

I think it uses all of our attacking talent well, and where I think it trumps Inter's 2010 team is that every single one of that front 4 can interchange. It would be impossible to mark.

I have nothing against Valencia, I love the bloke. But I think the possibilities with this team are endless and exciting as hell. I think Valencia just doesn't fit in to the system and gets in the way of what we can play without him. I get a bit of a Berbatov feeling with him, he's talented as hell but just doesn't quite work here. That could possibly be why he has under-performed this season.

Anyway i'm prepared for you all to disagree, but it's just how I feel.
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The thing is that you are comparing apples and oranges. Inter had two very good defensive minded midfielders who played behind Sneijder, terriers really who worked and hassled the play. United don't have similar players; Fletcher used to be, but isn't anymore.

United have always been about wing play. Some of Valencia's poor play is down to himself, but it is also partly down to the rest of the team. When Scholes isn't playing, Valencia isn't serviced the way he is spoilt with. Also, since our left wingers haven't been keeping wide at all, it has been much easier to double, even triple mark Valencia, so that if he should manage to get past the first defender, he would only run into the second.

I think I understand what you mean, but you can't apply another team's strategies for our own with such different squads. Also, why would we want to adopt an Italian team? It's boring as hell!
 
I agree with your overall premise, but would add that, that wide forward is already at the club in the form of Nani... The one thing I'm hoping for is that he stays, because you look around and there really is no one who could replicate what he brings to the team, outside of the big two of course.
 
Instead of saying he messes up our attack due to being a bit one dimensional do you not think he gives us something a bit different from our other attackers? Not only does he provide us a constant outlet on the right hand side but he's also capable of really getting at his fullback (not this season, mind) and exploiting their weaknesses.

I agree that I think we should be looking at a more fluid front line and Valencia doesn't really fit into that but I still think having him in the squad provides us with a unique option for certain games where we need to exploit a fullback or where need to have a bit of witdth from the right hand side.
 
Rossa said:
The thing is that you are comparing apples and oranges. Inter had two very good defensive minded midfielders who played behind Sneijder, terriers really who worked and hassled the play. United don't have similar players; Fletcher used to be, but isn't anymore.

United have always been about wing play. Some of Valencia's poor play is down to himself, but it is also partly down to the rest of the team. When Scholes isn't playing, Valencia isn't serviced the way he is spoilt with. Also, since our left wingers haven't been keeping wide at all, it has been much easier to double, even triple mark Valencia, so that if he should manage to get past the first defender, he would only run into the second.

I think I understand what you mean, but you can't apply another team's strategies for our own with such different squads. Also, why would we want to adopt an Italian team? It's boring as hell!
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Like I said, I don't want to copy them. It was just the closest comparison in formation I could think of from recent history. United's team would naturally be a lot more versatile and interchangeable.

Aint gota Kalou said:
Instead of saying he messes up our attack due to being a bit one dimensional do you not think he gives us something a bit different from our other attackers? Not only does he provide us a constant outlet on the right hand side but he's also capable of really getting at his fullback (not this season, mind) and exploiting their weaknesses.

I agree that I think we should be looking at a more fluid front line and Valencia doesn't really fit into that but I still think having him in the squad provides us with a unique option for certain games where we need to exploit a fullback or where need to have a bit of witdth from the right hand side.
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Having Valencia in the squad is fantastic, but i'm not so sure he'd be happy at any club if he's not a regular starter. He turned down Real Madrid to stay at Wigan for that reason.

Valencia could be the best player of so many clubs and he deserves to be the best player at another top tier club rather than just a squad player here.
 
I don't think we play with just one system though, which is why I think having Valencia is useful. We are a very adaptable team. Sometimes we play with width, sometimes we play narrow, sometimes we play a passing game dominating possession, sometimes we cede possession but press high up forcing mistakes from the opposition, sometimes we play a counter attacking style. We have played all of these different formations and styles this season and imo it's the reason we are where we are in the table.

In contrast City play 4-2-3-1 every game but play narrowly through the middle. When that hasn't worked they've struggled to come up with anything else.

Valencia (when in form) is a massive advantage to playing 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 as he gives a lot of width stretching teams and putting pressure on fullbacks. He also offers Rafael a lot of protection when at his best. His pace helps us counter attack too and as Gary Neville showed with his graphic after the City game, when he is on the pitch we attack a lot down his flank. He is a good option to have and if we sell him it will mean that we will lose one aspect of our versatility. He's probably our only out and out winger with Nani, Young, Kagawa (and Zaha) also able to operate as inside forwards.

I think versatility is a strength we have and I think Valencia at his best offers something the other wingers don't. It wouldn't be wise imo to have a squad full of similar players no matter how deep it is because you will struggle to change things up then.
 
LR7 said:
I don't think we play with just one system though, which is why I think having Valencia is useful. We are a very adaptable team. Sometimes we play with width, sometimes we play narrow, sometimes we play a passing game dominating possession, sometimes we cede possession but press high up forcing mistakes from the opposition, sometimes we play a counter attacking style. We have played all of these different formations and styles this season and imo it's the reason we are where we are in the table.

In contrast City play 4-2-3-1 every game but play narrowly through the middle. When that hasn't worked they've struggled to come up with anything else.

Valencia (when in form) is a massive advantage to playing 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 as he gives a lot of width stretching teams and putting pressure on fullbacks. He also offers Rafael a lot of protection when at his best. His pace helps us counter attack too and as Gary Neville showed with his graphic after the City game, when he is on the pitch we attack a lot down his flank. He is a good option to have and if we sell him it will mean that we will lose one aspect of our versatility. He's probably our only out and out winger with Nani, Young, Kagawa (and Zaha) also able to operate as inside forwards.

I think versatility is a strength we have and I think Valencia at his best offers something the other wingers don't. It wouldn't be wise imo to have a squad full of similar players no matter how deep it is because you will struggle to change things up then.
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This! Great post!
 
Well there no doubt he's been crap this season so far, but I think it's very premature to talk about selling him. Rather we all get behind him until he regains form.
 
Chabon said:
I suggested he be moved on in the near future (or made a full-time RB) last summer. We're moving towards a short-passing style of play and he doesn't fit in. At this point, however, it seems more likely that we'll sell Nani in the summer and retain Valencia, which seems utterly absurd.
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Not much we can do if he doesn't reduce his wage demands tbh.
 
As much as he has frustrated me, I don't we should sell. He needs to buck up his ideas though. I'm losing patience. He's seemingly lost the ability to cross the ball and seems shot of confidence.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
He must be playing with some sort of injury.
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Either this or he's had Torres syndrome.

I can't remember (apart from Torres) anyone going from such an attacking, consistent player to someone who looks so unbelievably out of place in a Premier League team.
 
I almost wonder if a month out of the first team picture like we've done with players like Nani and Anderson might help to freshen him up. The problem is we couldn't afford to be without him for that long, even if he isn't playing well.
 
Why sell him when we can BURN HIM!

Seriously though, this has gone far beyond a "spell of bad form" at this stage, I'm really worried as to whether he will actually hit form this season at all now.
 
Idk the fact that he's suddenly struggling to get past people and looking weak in one on ones whilst once he was an absolute tank points to an injury more than anything.

He's 27 so I don't think its a physical decline.
 
Brophs said:
Right. We're so stocked with wingers we could just leave him out for a month, even if he's only on the bench.
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Yep. Giggs has been in great form on the left recently, Young is playing better than Valencia, Nani is back & both Welbeck & Kagawa have shown in recent weeks that they can also do well out from the left.

We wouldn't have missed Valencia in any of the months so far this season for me and right now in this form we'd miss him even less.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
Idk the fact that he's suddenly struggling to get past people and looking weak in one on ones whilst once he was an absolute tank points to an injury more than anything.
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Or just bad form & players/teams wising up to him.

Players go through bad form, it aint the first team with Valencia it's just by far the longest.
 
Why would we sell him? That's mental. We would just end up losing money on him, when we aren't exactly in desperate need of any. I'd much rather we keep a solid quota of wingers, even if he's out of form he's clearly worth keeping. We've had a fresh stream of injuries between Nani, Valencia and Young, with Giggs dipping in and out of form. This very season has seen Nani and Valencia either injured, or looking fairly shit. Young has only been a bit better.

We get rid of Valencia, and say Nani/Young goes through a bad patch or injury, we are left fielding fecking Zaha and Giggs each match? If this season has taught us anything, it's that we need more wingers not less - with three Premier League wingers, generally considered three of the best in this league, we've been totally shite in that department all season.
 
Brophs said:
Right. We're so stocked with wingers we could just leave him out for a month, even if he's only on the bench.
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Whether we're well stocked or not I honestly think it's worth a try, nothing else is working for him at the moment. With Anderson, Rooney, and Nani all back and Welbeck doing well in wider positions we can probably afford to give it a try.

Valencia in his current form adds basically nothing offensively, we need to try something other than what's been going on so far this season as he clearly isn't looking that likely to just play himself in to form.
 
Hectic said:
Why would we sell him? That's mental. We would just end up losing money on him, when we aren't exactly in desperate need of any. I'd much rather we keep a solid quota of wingers, even if he's out of form he's clearly worth keeping. We've had a fresh stream of injuries between Nani, Valencia and Young, with Giggs dipping in and out of form. This very season has seen Nani and Valencia either injured, or looking fairly shit. Young has only been a bit better.

We get rid of Valencia, and say Nani/Young goes through a bad patch or injury, we are left fielding fecking Zaha and Giggs each match? If this season has taught us anything, it's that we need more wingers not less - with three Premier League wingers, generally considered three of the best in this league, we've been totally shite in that department all season.
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That's almost certainly not true. I'm sure we would comfortably get the £16m back, probably closer to £20-22m (Zaha has been reported at £15m ffs).

I don't think we should get rid, but I certainly wouldn't want a Torres situation where he is just perpetually playing shit (obviously he's not there yet). I honestly can't remember the last time he had a great game.
 
finneh said:
That's almost certainly not true. I'm sure we would comfortably get the £16m back, probably closer to £20-22m (Zaha has been reported at £15m ffs).

I don't think we should get rid, but I certainly wouldn't want a Torres situation where he is just perpetually playing shit (obviously he's not there yet). I honestly can't remember the last time he had a great game.
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Well, that's debatable but I don't think it's worth it for us even if we make a profit of a few million. I do very much doubt anyone is going to bid £20+ for him though.
 
Hectic said:
Well, that's debatable but I don't think it's worth it for us even if we make a profit of a few million. I do very much doubt anyone is going to bid £20+ for him though.
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I dunno, he's rated very highly in the media. I mean, even in this form there's actually been very little criticism of him from them, it's weird, maybe he's just being overshadowed by the likes of Rooney and DDG, but any time a commentator or pundit sees his name on the sheet or him coming on as a sub, it's not a case of "oh he's been playing very poorly", it's usually "well, we know how dangerous Valencia can be."
 
Hectic said:
Well, that's debatable but I don't think it's worth it for us even if we make a profit of a few million. I do very much doubt anyone is going to bid £20+ for him though.
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I love Valencia but I get the feeling that he isn't that highly rated in world football. That coupled with his recent form, and the likelihood that he will be going to a lesser team, make me think 20mil is extremely unlikely. I think we would be lucky to get 15mil for him.

This is all irrelevant though, he's done enough for us to justify some patience, if this keeps going on through next season then we can think about selling.
 
Cina said:
I dunno, he's rated very highly in the media. I mean, even in this form there's actually been very little criticism of him from them, it's weird, maybe he's just being overshadowed by the likes of Rooney and DDG, but any time a commentator or pundit sees his name on the sheet or him coming on as a sub, it's not a case of "oh he's been playing very poorly", it's usually "well, we know how dangerous Valencia can be."
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Fair point, it certainly hasn't been as documented or dramatically put as Nani's supposed fall from grace, despite playing even worse. Although that's probably down to a combination of Nani's permanently offensive face and his contract issue.
 
Yeah I've noticed that too actually, it's quite strange. In the past month they've picked up on the whole "Valencia's not in top form" thing but beyond that there's nothing. Even super-pundit Gary Neville was talking about his consistency last month, saying he consistently gives 7 or 8 out of 10 every week...despite him giving 4's, 5's and 6's throughout the season, many times with Neville at the stadium.
 
Hectic said:
Well, that's debatable but I don't think it's worth it for us even if we make a profit of a few million. I do very much doubt anyone is going to bid £20+ for him though.
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Dunno. This summer is the time when Madrid most likely will entirely change their squad and bid like mental form every player.

Anyway I agree that it is not worthy to cash him for a few million profit. He in form is a great player, though it has been some time since his last time he was in form.
 
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