Aye, in this case I'd say the stats fall inline with how I see it on the pitch.
As an adise, it's remarkable how you've done a total 180 in regards to your opinion on stats since about 4 years ago Pogue.
Antonio Valencia | 2013/14 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
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Aye, in this case I'd say the stats fall inline with how I see it on the pitch.
As an adise, it's remarkable how you've done a total 180 in regards to your opinion on stats since about 4 years ago Pogue.
If Kagawa's name was replaced by Nani's in this post I'd swear I'd seen it already about a bizillion times on the caf
That ran through my head as it was writing it actually, maybe that's why I wrote it so quick, imbued in my brain.If Kagawa's name was replaced by Nani's in this post I'd swear I'd seen it already about a bizillion times on the caf
Although Nani has never failed to match/beat Valencia for stats.
I've always been a stats nerd? Well, to a point. I'm a sucker for stuff like pass completion % anyway. Always have been. It's only the really vague stuff like "key passes" that gets on my tits.I admire the faith people have in Kagawa. I still have faith in him myself.
I have absolutely no doubt, though, that he is far more likely to get away with a poor performance than Valencia, who gets people absolutely frothing at the mouth from the moment they see his name on the team-sheet. On the rare occasion he's played well this season (and there has been games in which he's played well) you get loads of people on here still trying to claim he was shite.
Obviously, there's a background to all of this and his overall form has been poor for ages. Marginally better this season, though, despite the whole team being poor to awful most games. It's not as though Kagawa was much better than him last season either. Something else that gets glossed over a lot when the two are discussed.
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We are missing an explosive winger. Januzaj is the nearest we have to it and he is still just starting out. We have lost Ronaldo and Giggs from our wings in recent times and instead brought in Valencia and Young. It seemed to be okay initially in Valencia's start to his career but as he has faded we haven't adjusted and when you add the odd and unpredictable Nani situation it is easy to see why we have gradually become less of a threat going forward quickly that the United of old.
what irritates me is that we hear Van Persie may leave, Kagawa may leave, Nani may leave, Hernadez may leave...but there is no talks about Valencia or Young being shipped out.
Unlike Kagawa, Valencia actually has previous for being a good player for Manchester United. If people are going to say that Kagawa should start because he's received a confidence boost in an international friendly then it's only fair to apply the same logic to others.
I thought it was always you that used to despite stats when they first started becoming mainstream and you made the American Football comparison? I must be mistaken.
Peterstorey, maybe? He really hates stats. Especially because they made Denilson seem quite good!
I think its something about the way you lose. Most reds tend to prefer a 4-3 loss to a 2-1 loss. Go out with a bang, an all that. The thinking with Kagawa/Valencia is - if you're going to be crap, be crap while trying to be classy and progressive, rather than be crap while being a limited workhorse.
Daft of course. But you can understand why people are more forgiving of what they perceive to be the higher ideal.
I'm not sure about that. It's a nice idea but harks back to previous eras when we lost so many games we could afford to ponder on what sort of loss we would prefer. Since Fergie's raised the bar, all losses hurt just as badly. If you had to ask me to list the most gut-wrenching, painful and frustrating defeats of the last few years I'd have the 4-3 defeat against Everton right up there. Which is actually, kind of ironic, when you think about who was managing the opposition at the time!
well that was a 4-4, really fantastic attacking display from Welbeck, Nani and Rooney
Oops. 4-4 it was, indeed.
If ever a draw felt like a defeat...
If ever a draw felt like a defeat...
Then Kagawa's past as a good player in Germany means even less.
Again, did I say otherwise?
And Nani's too.
Oooooh, that's a low blow...
I've posted shit all in his thread in around half a feckin' year. Can't shake previous reputations I suppose.
I'd sooner see Valencia leave than Anderson this summer. At least Anderson has the courtesy to never actually play.
That's probably because they'd all be sought after players and stories of them moving make headlines. Valencia or Young moving isn't going to sell any papers, and I imagine there are a paucity of obvious suitors.
When did I say you didn't? You know you aren't the only person who can read the posts?
I don't know, but it's a little weird that you're responding to all my posts with "yeah but Kagawa didn't do x, y, z either!"
It was you who responded to me. I was just drawing attention to the fact that one players performance in a friendly is reason for him to play tomorrow and one isn't. You also said Kagawa is a really good player so if the past means as little as you're pretending I'd be interested to know what you base that on. He certainly hasn't been very good for Man Utd.
I think Kagawa has still shown spurts of his Dortmund quality for us where as Valencia has completely declined and is nothing on what he used to be. One looks like they can still be a top player again, the other looks completely done for.
The past then.
If by "past" you mean two weeks ago, then yes.
In the very few games where he's played well this season (eg Villa) Valencia has looked very close to the player he once was. If we're comparing "spurts" (unfortunate choice of word) then he's been just as impressive as Kagawa.
These good games get convenientky forgotten amidst all the frantic scapegoating. Whereas a good performance from Kagawa (even a good half) gets shouted from the roof-tops.
These good games get convenientky forgotten amidst all the frantic scapegoating. Whereas a good performance from Kagawa (even a good half) gets shouted from the roof-tops.
Even some of his average games are dismissed as shite due to the frothing at the mouth people do when they same his name on the team sheet. Any positive is over looked in favour of the negative. The opposite is true of Kagawa.
A sub appearance? You've been caught in a lie. It's ok to admit it. Kagawa hasn't been very good for Man Utd and any belief he is a very good footballer is based on the past you are so quick to dismiss.
Depressing.
Valencia is so shit that it is mind boggling to see people comparing him to Kagawa.
Valencia could go on a free tomorrow and not a single top European team would be interested.
Valencia could go on a free tomorrow and not a single top European team would be interested.
I need to agree.
Go back to any of his "good games" and you'll see a whole host of posts saying "have our standards dropped that much that we are now commending Valencia on a performance like that?"
And it's true. He hasn't had a single game this season where you'd rate him above an 8 and that's being generous. He's averaging about a 5. His attacking contribution is non existent.
I also wouldn't say it's fair to compare kagawa's odd good games to Valencia imo. The team really couldn't be set up that much better for someone like Valencia but he's completely failing to do anything in most games.
Kagawa too had struggled for impact but plays his role far less often and doesn't come in to a team that is based around his strengths.
Ultimately both need to improve but I'd say there's far less reason for Valencia to be so poor and he should get more stick because no ones asking him to alter how he plays or do anything different to what he's used too. Said it before but will be quite depressing if come the summer it's Valencia and young who stay and nani and kagawa who go. Although nani's injuries are a worry.
Kagawa too had struggled for impact but plays his role far less often and doesn't come in to a team that is based around his strengths.
Ultimately both need to improve but I'd say there's far less reason for Valencia to be so poor and he should get more stick because no ones asking him to alter how he plays or do anything different to what he's used too. Said it before but will be quite depressing if come the summer it's Valencia and young who stay and nani and kagawa who go. Although nani's injuries are a worry.
The last couple pages were a comical read, people are too much to extremes.
Kagawa needs to do better.
That said.
Valencia plays as a right midfielder and Kagawa CAM as their preferred positions.
Kagawa has been played not consistently as a LAM and Valencia consistently RM.
Let us see how Kagawa performs when consistently played CAM and let us see how Valencia does when expected to perform as a CAM continually lacking match fitness or at least sharpness from lack of consistent game time.
Right now Kagawa and Valencia are at comparable levels, even then Kagawa looks a little better to me. When the roles are reversed I would imagine Kagawa would perform far better and Valencia far worse.
Moyes has a decision to make, he can keep Rooney and RVP in the hope they develop a connection. This seems unlikely at the moment.
He can put Kagawa in behind Rooney due to the connection those two have shown and play Mata drifting in.
He can sell Kagawa + RVP and put Mata behind Rooney.
Either of the last two seems fine to me in terms of building our team play up, especially considering the value of RVP could be securing a world class player in a better position.
Actually I would do the second giving Kagawa one last season and ourselves time to sign both a world class LAM and RAM.
Either way, Valencia must be sold.
Kagawa needs to do better.
That said.
Valencia plays as a right midfielder and Kagawa CAM as their preferred positions.
Kagawa has been played not consistently as a LAM and Valencia consistently RM.
Let us see how Kagawa performs when consistently played CAM and let us see how Valencia does when expected to perform as a CAM continually lacking match fitness or at least sharpness from lack of consistent game time.
Right now Kagawa and Valencia are at comparable levels, even then Kagawa looks a little better to me. When the roles are reversed I would imagine Kagawa would perform far better and Valencia far worse.
Moyes has a decision to make, he can keep Rooney and RVP in the hope they develop a connection. This seems unlikely at the moment.
He can put Kagawa in behind Rooney due to the connection those two have shown and play Mata drifting in.
He can sell Kagawa + RVP and put Mata behind Rooney.
Either of the last two seems fine to me in terms of building our team play up, especially considering the value of RVP could be securing a world class player in a better position.
Actually I would do the second giving Kagawa one last season and ourselves time to sign both a world class LAM and RAM.
Either way, Valencia must be sold.
The problem with Valencia and Young for that matter is that since they came here they have not developed their game, they were effective initially now everyone knows how to easily stop what they do well, opposition spend their time trying to stop attacking teams like us and you have to keep progressing, improving and re-inventing your game to combat that, it doesn't help Valencia that he is so one footed but on top of that his technique is very average, can he curl a ball? Everything he does, passing, crossing, shooting is all in a straight line, whether driven, clipped or floated, and yep, all with his right foot, it makes it easier for defenders to read. His net contribution now is being a work horse which has it's benefits and I am sure he is useful to have around in situations but it is very difficult to justify him as a starter, if the manager is serious about how he says he wants this team to play, see what happens in the Summer.
The problem is that they are shit.
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