Antonio Valencia | 2013/14 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
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I said in the summer that if I was United boss one of my very first actions would be to remove him as far away from our first XI as possible. This is not actually down to how good/bad he is as a player per se, but more down to the fact that I don't like the team that we are so long as he is in the team.
I believe that so long as Valencia starts regularly for us, we will generally play a predictable style of game. The last two games have been a perfect example. Almost every time we get the ball, we simply cycle it out to Valencia, who then blasts it into the box as if he's shooting. Almost every time. Occasionally, it's played to Rafael on the overlap, who puts a cross in himself. I know people speak of our traditions of width, but I think the signing of Valencia particularly has had a negative affect on our play, and we have fallen behind so many teams in the league in terms of pass and move. I'm pretty sure that around the time he joined, Liverpool's style was described as 'shit on a stick'. I watched them at the weekend and they have come so far from that. It isn't Barca tika-taka that some people seem to hate, but it is quick, one-touch play that creates an abundance of chances and confuses defenders. Everton are now similar. It does not take years to implement such a style. I watched us, and we were just doing the same 'rinse and repeat' thing - and that was a game in which we actually played well.
I'd prefer to see Ashley Young in the line-up personally. This isn't knee-jerk either, as anyone who checks will know my views on Valencia have always been this way, and I have always said I believe Young is a better footballer, although not a better athlete. Young and Januzaj is far more flexible, as it would allow Januzaj to switch to the right hand side at times, where I think he will be more productive. Long-term, I think we need a better option than either Young or Valencia, but if Young can pick up some form, then I'd definitely play him. He gets crosses in, but is also able to link better in a short-passing game and offers more goals.
I believe that so long as Valencia starts regularly for us, we will generally play a predictable style of game. The last two games have been a perfect example. Almost every time we get the ball, we simply cycle it out to Valencia, who then blasts it into the box as if he's shooting. Almost every time. Occasionally, it's played to Rafael on the overlap, who puts a cross in himself. I know people speak of our traditions of width, but I think the signing of Valencia particularly has had a negative affect on our play, and we have fallen behind so many teams in the league in terms of pass and move. I'm pretty sure that around the time he joined, Liverpool's style was described as 'shit on a stick'. I watched them at the weekend and they have come so far from that. It isn't Barca tika-taka that some people seem to hate, but it is quick, one-touch play that creates an abundance of chances and confuses defenders. Everton are now similar. It does not take years to implement such a style. I watched us, and we were just doing the same 'rinse and repeat' thing - and that was a game in which we actually played well.
I'd prefer to see Ashley Young in the line-up personally. This isn't knee-jerk either, as anyone who checks will know my views on Valencia have always been this way, and I have always said I believe Young is a better footballer, although not a better athlete. Young and Januzaj is far more flexible, as it would allow Januzaj to switch to the right hand side at times, where I think he will be more productive. Long-term, I think we need a better option than either Young or Valencia, but if Young can pick up some form, then I'd definitely play him. He gets crosses in, but is also able to link better in a short-passing game and offers more goals.
So people want to sell a player who has been one of our best players over the last few games? I had doubts about Valencia after his long poor spell, but to me it looks like he's back to his old self.
Wouldn't mind if we replaced him with a player capable of mixing it up. He's so predictable and hinders our attacking play unless he's bang on form which unfortunately is not often enough.
You want the team continuously lumping balls to him only for the attack to be over when he plays shit crosses time and time again? Fair enough, he contributes defensively and links up well with Rafael but he's not doing it often enough, and for every good game he's had there is always 3 or 4 bad ones. More inconsistent than Nani and Young these days.
I don't agree that all we do is lump the ball to him. He's been instrumental in our improvement over the last few games in my opinion. Yes his delivery isn't great but he constantly beats his man and gets himself into good positions, working well with Rafael.
Most of our attacks come down his side, yet on saturday our 2 goals in the first half came from the middle and the left. Valencia was in great positions time and time again and wasted it. His crossing is abysmal for the most part. He also wasted a good counter which led to us conceding.
I missed the first half so didn't get to watch him properly. My feeling is that he's been getting back to his old self of late, hopefully he keeps going because we don't have anyone better to play there at the moment.
One of my problems with Valencia, as unfair as it probably is, is that I always associate him inexorably with our declining standards since 2009. Just by the very virtue of who he is, what he is, and how he came here. He was brought in to fill Ronaldo's position, after we sold Ronnie for £80m, and our response was to buy some guy from Wigan with no left foot for £16m. It was rather depressing then, and - despite a short upturn - it's still rather depressing now.
It's unfair to compare him to Ronnie, obviously, but it was almost SO far in the other direction as to negate that comparison anyway. It was also the same window we got Owen to replace Tevez. It was all so patently downhill. Yeah we reached a CL final (with a good draw it must be said) but we were running on fumes IMO. While he continues to occupy our right side, he'll always just remind me that we're not that great anymore. Yeah we're pretty good. And we've hit some heights. But Antonio Valencia's our right winger, so, you know, we're that level.
I've always thought him a hugely average player, whether it be playing out of his skin (that season he was very good) or playing to below, but not significantly, his actual level (every other season)
Yeah he'll occasionally play very well, and I'm really happy when he does. I don't hate him. I don't want him to fail. I don't have some mental affinity for Nani that I hypocritically refuse to share with Valencia (I'm more patient with Nani because he's obviously more talented, and more capable of individual brilliance. You cut those players more slack than technically limited ones. That's just the way football works) I do like the way he's a hard working, no nonsense player. But I just don't particularly like that he's Manchester United's first choice right winger. And has been on and off for 4 years. It's more about what it says about us, than him. We've settled.
That's probably a bit spoiled. Though I'm not particularly in a tiz that we're not challenging for the league and apparently in a "crisis" at the minute, so perhaps not.
I don't really know what it is. But I'll continue to want him to succeed, whilst at the same time continue to want us to replace him with someone significantly better as soon as possible.
It's unfair to compare him to Ronnie, obviously, but it was almost SO far in the other direction as to negate that comparison anyway. It was also the same window we got Owen to replace Tevez. It was all so patently downhill. Yeah we reached a CL final (with a good draw it must be said) but we were running on fumes IMO. While he continues to occupy our right side, he'll always just remind me that we're not that great anymore. Yeah we're pretty good. And we've hit some heights. But Antonio Valencia's our right winger, so, you know, we're that level.
I've always thought him a hugely average player, whether it be playing out of his skin (that season he was very good) or playing to below, but not significantly, his actual level (every other season)
Yeah he'll occasionally play very well, and I'm really happy when he does. I don't hate him. I don't want him to fail. I don't have some mental affinity for Nani that I hypocritically refuse to share with Valencia (I'm more patient with Nani because he's obviously more talented, and more capable of individual brilliance. You cut those players more slack than technically limited ones. That's just the way football works) I do like the way he's a hard working, no nonsense player. But I just don't particularly like that he's Manchester United's first choice right winger. And has been on and off for 4 years. It's more about what it says about us, than him. We've settled.
That's probably a bit spoiled. Though I'm not particularly in a tiz that we're not challenging for the league and apparently in a "crisis" at the minute, so perhaps not.
I don't really know what it is. But I'll continue to want him to succeed, whilst at the same time continue to want us to replace him with someone significantly better as soon as possible.
The level he's been performing at for the last season and a half is nothing like the level he was performing at in his first season and a half so I'm not sure how you can group them all together as "his actual level". I've always thought Nani was better, wasn't particularly enthused when he signed him and I don't enjoy seeing him on the teamsheet at all any more, but let's be fair to him - he had far more very good games in his first season than he's had in his last 18 months combined. He scored as many goals in his first season as he did in 10/11, 12/13 and (half of) 13/14 - that's surely enough of an indication that when he first came, he was actually a capable, dependable United player. A big step down from Ronaldo/Giggs/Beckham etc., but a big step up from the likes of Fletcher, Richardson, Fortune etc. He was in that middle ground. Maybe that's not what you want a Manchester United winger to be, but it's lightyears ahead of what he's been for a long while now.
I grew quite fond of him over the years after his comeback from a serious injury and his ability to relentlessly tear apart practically every fullback he came up against after that comeback, but I'm definitely looking forward to the time he moves on (or moves back to being a useful squad player). Realistically he's at the same level as Young now, he's just much less of a pussy so I'm less critical of him. He rarely has games where he goes into hiding like Young and he does support the midfield and defence on a more consistent basis than any of our other wingers so I can see why he gets regular games, but it is an area that needs to be improved upon as soon as possible. And Sir Alex's interest in Lucas, Alexis Sánchez and a few of those others suggests he's well aware of that. Let's hope Moyes is thinking the same.
I grew quite fond of him over the years after his comeback from a serious injury and his ability to relentlessly tear apart practically every fullback he came up against after that comeback, but I'm definitely looking forward to the time he moves on (or moves back to being a useful squad player). Realistically he's at the same level as Young now, he's just much less of a pussy so I'm less critical of him. He rarely has games where he goes into hiding like Young and he does support the midfield and defence on a more consistent basis than any of our other wingers so I can see why he gets regular games, but it is an area that needs to be improved upon as soon as possible. And Sir Alex's interest in Lucas, Alexis Sánchez and a few of those others suggests he's well aware of that. Let's hope Moyes is thinking the same.
I've noticed!
I think the people that actually do seem to will him to fail do so in the knowledge that a 6 or 7 out of 10 performance seems to be acceptable and won't lead to any changes so for the greater good in the long run, they want him to fail miserably and be replaced by someone that is the quality that you expect from a United player 7 or 8 out of 10 on a regular basis and the odd 9 or 10 out of 10 game.
It's a bit of a "loss being a win" situation I guess.
Agree almost word for word, and have posted similarly in the past.
I think due to a decline in real individual quality in recent years, many of our fans have (naturally) lowered their expectations of what a top player/performance is. I think we have been so poor in wide and central areas of late that 'competent' gets lauded, and any yearn for the 'brilliance' some of our rivals have in similar areas is asking for too much and simply being 'spoilt'. I think in general, as you have said, since that last team of real top players in 2008 - we have lowered the bar of what it takes to be a United first XI regular, and players like Valencia, and more specifically, the praise he often gets for just being Valencia - symbolises that.
We've been setting our standards so "low" because his contribution - and the contribution of the rest of our team that aren't real top players - has played its part in helping us come within 3 points of winning an unprecedented 5 league titles in a row. We just won a measly 3/5 in that time.
He only had one season when he was good enough for Manchester United, even by our high standards concerning wingers. It's true he's a downgrade on Beckham/Ronaldo, quite a big one too and in ideal world - not good enough to start games for us if we achieve high. BUT what I want is an equal treatment of all our wingers which doesn't happen. Judging by the logic and standards we use, none of our winger is close to being good enough and Valencia is seen by Moyes and was seen by Sir Alex as the least mediocre of the options we have (judging by performances, not talent).
Not 'terrible', 'average' player as some experts will tell you. Good player who happens to be at the club that used to have some wonderful wing wizards in the past and always put a big emphasis on that area.
I didn't include Januzaj above as it's clear he's more of a no.10 player.
Not 'terrible', 'average' player as some experts will tell you. Good player who happens to be at the club that used to have some wonderful wing wizards in the past and always put a big emphasis on that area.
I didn't include Januzaj above as it's clear he's more of a no.10 player.
I don't agree with people rewriting history and calling him an average player because he was extremely effective in his debut season and then was sensational for us in 11/12 and bullied left backs for fun, including Baines and Cole.
People just have to accept that he's been shite for the last two years. He was awful last season in 95% of games, and that is not even exaggerating. His general level has improved this season but that's still coming from a low base. If we're going to be title and European contenders then we must ultimately accept that he is not good enough for us on current form. It's still actually baffling what has happened to him. He's still as strong and quick as he was before and he's never had a trick up his sleeve or used his left foot for shit. He used to do the basics extremely well. He was always an outlet on the flank and as soon as he got the ball he'd square up to his man, look up, shift the ball half a yard and deliver a well measured, directed cross. And it was brutally effective because when he saw the window of opportunity to get half a yard on his man, he was too fecking big and strong for anyone to stop him. And if there wasn't the chance to beat his man, he'd always have enough about him to link up with teammates, either driving inside and flicking a pass through with the outside of his boot or playing in Rafael down the flank. Now he seems to have lost any semblance of a footballing brain, hesitating and crossing when angles are so obviously not on. He's far more destructive than he is creative in the final third. And 4/5 good performances against makeshift left backs this season isn't enough evidence to suggest that he's going to be an asset to us.
I'd like to see Nani afforded the sort of opportunities that Valencia has been in the two years. Give him a run in the team because he can't be that much worse than Valencia at times.
People just have to accept that he's been shite for the last two years. He was awful last season in 95% of games, and that is not even exaggerating. His general level has improved this season but that's still coming from a low base. If we're going to be title and European contenders then we must ultimately accept that he is not good enough for us on current form. It's still actually baffling what has happened to him. He's still as strong and quick as he was before and he's never had a trick up his sleeve or used his left foot for shit. He used to do the basics extremely well. He was always an outlet on the flank and as soon as he got the ball he'd square up to his man, look up, shift the ball half a yard and deliver a well measured, directed cross. And it was brutally effective because when he saw the window of opportunity to get half a yard on his man, he was too fecking big and strong for anyone to stop him. And if there wasn't the chance to beat his man, he'd always have enough about him to link up with teammates, either driving inside and flicking a pass through with the outside of his boot or playing in Rafael down the flank. Now he seems to have lost any semblance of a footballing brain, hesitating and crossing when angles are so obviously not on. He's far more destructive than he is creative in the final third. And 4/5 good performances against makeshift left backs this season isn't enough evidence to suggest that he's going to be an asset to us.
I'd like to see Nani afforded the sort of opportunities that Valencia has been in the two years. Give him a run in the team because he can't be that much worse than Valencia at times.
He's such a hard bastard to be deal with, which is necessary to have against team with superior players.
We're still far behind top teams in Bayern, Madrid, and Barcelona; and when we come up against them, players like Valencia has a place in United starting XI. Dirk Kuyt wasn't more technically gifted, but was an integral part in Liverpool European success under Benitez, and Netherlands road to Euro final.
We're still far behind top teams in Bayern, Madrid, and Barcelona; and when we come up against them, players like Valencia has a place in United starting XI. Dirk Kuyt wasn't more technically gifted, but was an integral part in Liverpool European success under Benitez, and Netherlands road to Euro final.
fecking idiot.
In no sort of form right now. Poor going forward. Rubbish defending. God knows why he is playing.
fecking idiot.
Thought he did better at right back than he did when he was on the wing at the start.
But very silly red
But very silly red
Absolute buffoon.
Yep. Nearly cost us the game today the muppet.
So he already has 5 yellows and this red. How many games does he miss?
I was fairly happy to see him get the first booking as it meant we wouldnt have to see him on the right against Norwich. But then to get so stupidly booked a second time and get sent off? With some luck at least Moyes opinion of him might have changed a bit and he wouldnt be an automatic starter
We need to replace him.
fecking idiotic sending off. Almost cost us big time. Weird coming from him as he's usually composed.
Meh, is that his first red for us?
Most players are susceptible to silly moments, he just had one. Don't think we need to abuse him over it.
Most players are susceptible to silly moments, he just had one. Don't think we need to abuse him over it.
There goes our whole right side with Rafael injured
Really stupid thing to do and should be fined for it.
Should be 2 games now.
He was feckin frustrated as his manager, Rooney and other United players.
Only blessing is that he's banned.
Needs a long break.
Needs a long break.
He was decent at right back in the first half. Stupid to get himself sent off though. I'm sort of glad he's suspended, in half a match on the right Young has put in two better crosses than Valencia has all season.
What happens with his suspension now? He was already out for the Norwich game because of 5 yellows, does that red add an extra game? Guessing not.
Worst time for him to get suspended with Rafael and Jones injured. I would have been fuming at his idiocy to get sent off if not for the fact that it was the final minute and him already been suspended for the next game.
That red was no biggie, I thought he's done well enough.
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