That's a fair point, you look at Everton how they look a very different team under Martinez in their style of play, or Swansea and its clearly true that managers can coach in a different style of playing but then I guess they can't actually make them re-create that on the pitch.
Antonio Valencia | 2013/14 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
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That's a fair point, you look at Everton how they look a very different team under Martinez in their style of play, or Swansea and its clearly true that managers can coach in a different style of playing but then I guess they can't actually make them re-create that on the pitch.
For instance, asking Valencia to not always drill low and hard and instead try to curl it (we know he can do it !!) could maybe result in better chances created. Why does Valencia always drill it when he can make for accurate and better crosses ? Tbh, it's something he was still doing even last season.
That's what I'm saying, these problems aren't new problems, they just don't seem to be being addressed. Some times you feel like maybe we're the only ones whom it seems to be an issue with. Valencia has been here what 4 seasons or so? In that time has his left foot improved at all? Well certainly not his willingness to use it. Or think back to Jones in cm in his first season or at times last season where he genuinely seemed to be playing as an a/m. No one seemed to be telling him not to do it in game and he wasn't being subbed off for it. I dunno sometimes it feels like we're watching something completely different to what the coaches are. I guess though maybe all fans feel like that. We want our players to be perfect when in reality there's only so much you can do with them. Still something like getting valencia to whip in a cross or use his left foot more hardly seems to be asking a lot of him.
No he doesn't.
They both played a few days ago and Valencia was better, so Moyes kept him as first choice.
He was better than them mainly because our gameplan was to keep getting it out wide and setting off on shitty and unimaginative attacks involving whipping crosses no matter what what the circumstances. In fact, the biggest shame isn't the result, it's that our gameplan has gone nowhere and Valencia is still so crucial to it.
He was better than them because he played far better.
Staying out wide and making yourself an outlet is a part of football and Valencia is brilliant at it. Welbeck and Kagawa offered absolutely nothing, so it isnt surprising that the attacking approach was to give it to Valencia.
Disagree. Our football is too reliant on this one brainless tactic IMO.
Not good enough and hasn't been for more than a year now.
I agree. The same argument could be used for hoof ball. Nothing is working so just start hooping it mindlessly.
We're reliant on an outlet (Valencia) who doesn't produce the final ball often enough. That says it all.
Of all the attacking players barring Wayne Rooney he spends the most time with the ball at his feet. His usage of such time on the ball is appalling. The likes of Kagawa, Welbeck, Nani and even Ashley Young are simply not on the ball as much as he is to affect games and whilst I believe he has improved upon last year, he's still miles off putting in 'excellent' performances.
He has to start producing more chances and taking more risks. It's not as if he's being tasked to beat 6 men on his own and create the chances all on his own. More often than not the ball drops at his feet in good areas because of people like Wayne Rooney and Michael Carrick.
Of all the attacking players barring Wayne Rooney he spends the most time with the ball at his feet. His usage of such time on the ball is appalling. The likes of Kagawa, Welbeck, Nani and even Ashley Young are simply not on the ball as much as he is to affect games and whilst I believe he has improved upon last year, he's still miles off putting in 'excellent' performances.
He has to start producing more chances and taking more risks. It's not as if he's being tasked to beat 6 men on his own and create the chances all on his own. More often than not the ball drops at his feet in good areas because of people like Wayne Rooney and Michael Carrick.
Found brilliantly on numerous occasions by Rooney today... Had time, space and a single defender to run at today and still couldn't create anything of note. Nani deserves a chance based on that performance. He wouldn't torn Vertongen a new once in today's circumstances.
You don't half spout bullshit when it comes to Valencia vs. Nani. Don't know where to start, whether at 'Nani's been better when played' or your suggestion that rating Valencia's performance against Leverkusen higher than Nani's is wieird. Both stances are ungrounded as feck.
He attempted 11 crosses today. 1 found a United shirt.
It sounds impressive, right? 11 crosses? 6 of that 11 were blocked by the first defender and 5 of that 6 was when he was standing still and void of ideas and tried to get some sort of deflection or something, the only other 1 was a good block by Vertonghen when he failed to beat him for pace, his only Ace Card failing him.
Seriously though, what sort of player just kicks it at another player in hope it will either get past him or in the hope the deflection will be kind? I struggle to believe a player at this level can struggle so much to have a little invention in his game.
He's got to be the most one dimensional player I have ever seen and relies totally on the physical side of his game rather than any actual football brain.
It sounds impressive, right? 11 crosses? 6 of that 11 were blocked by the first defender and 5 of that 6 was when he was standing still and void of ideas and tried to get some sort of deflection or something, the only other 1 was a good block by Vertonghen when he failed to beat him for pace, his only Ace Card failing him.
Seriously though, what sort of player just kicks it at another player in hope it will either get past him or in the hope the deflection will be kind? I struggle to believe a player at this level can struggle so much to have a little invention in his game.
He's got to be the most one dimensional player I have ever seen and relies totally on the physical side of his game rather than any actual football brain.
I missed the match today. Judging by these reactions i am assuming he had a poor game? But on the MOTM thread, he is being listed 2nd on most people's posts..?
Because running fast is enough for some people.
He got by their left-back for fun all game but his crossing wasn't all that, and made some good interceptions. So mixed reviews depending on how you interpret the lack of end product despite making their defence look foolish at times.
That's exactly it. Haven't seen him skim a full-back like that for a while though.
Or me there's 4 steps to attacking as a winger.
1. Getting the ball. You either need to get it yourself or work hard to get yourself into a position to make yourself available.
2. Attacking up the line towards the optimum position to release the ball.
3. When you are in that position you need to set yourself up for releasing the ball. You need to make yourself a yard or two to ensure that you're not going to be blocked.
4. The end product. A shot or a cross into a dangerous area.
Valencia works hard defensively and it's a credit to him. He's also good at steps 1. and 2. but the huge problem he has is step 3. which makes step 4. impossible.
He never has that yard to cross or shoot anymore and while it might look like he's doing everything wrong he's completely impotent and the defender feels comfortable.
So yeah, he defended well enough and made some good runs down the line so he could be seen as having a lively game but in reality the defense kept asking him the same simple question and he never had an answer.
1. Getting the ball. You either need to get it yourself or work hard to get yourself into a position to make yourself available.
2. Attacking up the line towards the optimum position to release the ball.
3. When you are in that position you need to set yourself up for releasing the ball. You need to make yourself a yard or two to ensure that you're not going to be blocked.
4. The end product. A shot or a cross into a dangerous area.
Valencia works hard defensively and it's a credit to him. He's also good at steps 1. and 2. but the huge problem he has is step 3. which makes step 4. impossible.
He never has that yard to cross or shoot anymore and while it might look like he's doing everything wrong he's completely impotent and the defender feels comfortable.
So yeah, he defended well enough and made some good runs down the line so he could be seen as having a lively game but in reality the defense kept asking him the same simple question and he never had an answer.
He had one successful cross that caused little problems in the edge of their area, 4 crosses that were easily felt with and 6 that didn't make it past the first defender.
I thought he kept asking the defense the same simple question; "Can I try and edge past you slightly with my right foot to give the impression I've beaten you but then actually just hit it into your legs and out for a throw?" Of which the answer was "Be my guest".
Exactly.
At one point after Valencia stood their twitching his knee like a poor Elvis impersonator for a good 20 seconds I thought he was going to burst out laughing and say "really? we're going to do this again?"
A very limited low risk footballer with a good attitude who Moyes and then Fergie value highly. Decent defensively but as an attacking threat is predictable and generally wasteful. He seems to have lost the art of crossing the ball with any degree of flight, accuracy and precision. (Does he even look up when he is about to cross the ball?) Because United have zero creativity from central midfield it just highlights the inherent weaknesses in his game.
...and this is further highlighted when he plays in front of Smalling, who offers very little going forward. Valencia is not nearly daring enough, he doesn't have enough cards up his sleeve, he simply isn't enough of a threat in himself at the moment.
He is a decent option to have, don't get me wrong, but I don't like the idea of making him undroppable. Nani and Adnan should get plenty of chances too - we need some innovation out wide, something beyond having a disciplined body out there who will attempt to cross it almost mechanically. It's just not enough when everything else isn't running smoothly.
He didn't have a bad game as such. But his end product was very poor. It is so frustrating to see him beat his man and blindly shoot it in the hope of getting a cross. But he's been vital to the team in terms of holding possession. He has speed and strength and never actually loses possession and works so hard everytime. I think he needs special training on how to cross. It's been a distinct weakness that has been continuously ignored. I think everyone is over criticizing him. He's shouldering a lot of the defensive burden of the team and completely dominates the right flank. He's probably the only player in our team apart from Fellaini who can fight for an aerial ball from De Gea.
He will be a completely different player if he learns how to cross. If Moyes had started Nani or Januzaj in place of Valencia yesterday, we wouldn't have dominated possession but maybe would have been better attacking wise. Defensive stability is underrated, there's a reason why valencia starts even when out of form.
Nani and Januzaj needs extra protection because they tend to take a lot of risks and lose possession. They'll be dangerous when the opposition sits back to weather our attack, not when the opposition are going forward in numbers.
He will be a completely different player if he learns how to cross. If Moyes had started Nani or Januzaj in place of Valencia yesterday, we wouldn't have dominated possession but maybe would have been better attacking wise. Defensive stability is underrated, there's a reason why valencia starts even when out of form.
Nani and Januzaj needs extra protection because they tend to take a lot of risks and lose possession. They'll be dangerous when the opposition sits back to weather our attack, not when the opposition are going forward in numbers.
Funny reading all the bollocking going on here of Valencia, and then you read the MOTM thread and he's on pretty much 90% of everyone's MOTM list. And this on a massively pressurized away fixture at WHL. Jesus spud.
If he just wasn't so fecking one dimensional. I mean, he's only made it as far as Manchester United, even becoming their best player for a year. If he'd heed some advice from here, he might even get flogged off like a virus to Real Madrid.
What is about Valencia that Alex Ferguson and now David Moyes continue to insist on him? Do not they consult the footballing geniuses on here and understand what's wrong? After all this time and insight, why do they not insist on Nani? Weird. Isn't it obvious?
Fook!
If he just wasn't so fecking one dimensional. I mean, he's only made it as far as Manchester United, even becoming their best player for a year. If he'd heed some advice from here, he might even get flogged off like a virus to Real Madrid.
What is about Valencia that Alex Ferguson and now David Moyes continue to insist on him? Do not they consult the footballing geniuses on here and understand what's wrong? After all this time and insight, why do they not insist on Nani? Weird. Isn't it obvious?
Fook!
He looks to have the menacing aspect back in his game. He looks strong, quick and is turning opponents inside out. The final ball is virtually non-existent though. We really ought to have created 5 or 6 clear cut chances with the amount of good positions Valencia got himself into - as it happens, he hit the first man virtually every time.
He's showing promising signs of form though and is definitely our form winger.
He's showing promising signs of form though and is definitely our form winger.
Yes
Are you saying he wasn't?
given that Valencia plays week in week out and it was Nani;s first game in ages i think the difference in performance was minimal if any.
i really struggle to understand what Valncia offers apart form protecting the full back.
Of course yes! He is one of my favorite players and to talk like that is just not the United way.
Protecting the fullback was the least of his use in that Bayern Leverkusen game.
He was clearly better than Nani, but you seem to see what you want to see there.
I really can't think of a top level winger who, given that amount of the ball and that amount of space would be so ineffective. The most irritating thing to watch however is that if we didn't give it too Valencia to create, who else? Kagawa and Welbeck looked even less likely to create and at least Valencia won us a fair few corners.
Nani/Januzaj should be the pairing we play week in, week out. If we want to rest one of them we should opt for a narrower formation that doesn't rely on the same idle tactics that haven't worked for 18 months. I firmly believe that Valencia should be kept as strictly Rafael's understudy. We clearly need a second choice RB as playing central defenders out of position is also not working. Valencia as a RB is a far, far better option than Jones or Smalling.
Nani/Januzaj should be the pairing we play week in, week out. If we want to rest one of them we should opt for a narrower formation that doesn't rely on the same idle tactics that haven't worked for 18 months. I firmly believe that Valencia should be kept as strictly Rafael's understudy. We clearly need a second choice RB as playing central defenders out of position is also not working. Valencia as a RB is a far, far better option than Jones or Smalling.
He was, but it's hardly a fair comparison seeing as he has been given far, far more games than Nani has. You'd expect Nani to be a bit rusty in comparison.
The idea that he's meriting his place in the squad because he's outperforming our other wingers is a flawed one because he gets far, far more opportunities than the rest of them, combined!
The most depressing point of yesterday (not that it was an overly depressing day...) was in the second half when Valencia had the ball and did his customary smash it into the legs of the defender, only for the ball to cannon back off himself and out for a goal kick - with Valencia putting his hand up in appeal for a corner... this is depressing for one of two reasons... 1) The appeal was an automatic reaction for a corner that he was trying to play for... or 2) He's actually an idiot.
I think people have lost all perspective on Valencia and are starting to judge him by some weird "but he works hard" sort of standard.
We're Manchester United, a team forged with great wingers and while we have Valencia (and Young) our rivals have the likes of Oscar, Hazard, Mata, Silva, Nasri, Navas, Cazorla and Ozil to name but a few. All players that are adaptable enough to do a job out wide or cut back in and join in the attack.
Valencia is not good enough for us. Full fecking stop.
We're Manchester United, a team forged with great wingers and while we have Valencia (and Young) our rivals have the likes of Oscar, Hazard, Mata, Silva, Nasri, Navas, Cazorla and Ozil to name but a few. All players that are adaptable enough to do a job out wide or cut back in and join in the attack.
Valencia is not good enough for us. Full fecking stop.
He's possibly not, but he's currently the best option we have for the right wing spot and won't be going anywhere soon.
Surely you don't believe he's a better option than Nani?
I definitely think he's currently a better option than Nani.
Nani is a better footballer but he needs to start showing it more. Valencia is getting into some kind of form and Moyes is doing well with him.
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