Defences arent more compact in the PL than in Spain or Italy for example.
Antoine Griezmann
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It's the inability to control the opposition fullbacks that's the primary problem defensively. If you assign that responsibility to the carilleros then your midfield gets pulled apart. In attack, a huge amount of creative burden is placed upon the player at the tip of the diamond, and a single stream is more-easily dammed.
Narrow formations like the Diamond and Christmas Tree are more suited to Italian football where the pace of play is a little gentler, which is the reason Mourinho completely abandoned the system when he left Serie A seven years ago. It would be a surprise if he suddenly decided to deploy it on a regular basis with United.
I liked this analysis. Regarding the right side of midfield in the proposed diamond I wonder if Herrera is athletic enough to cover so much space throughout a game. I understand his work rate in our current setup and that he covers the most ground, but this is typically with more protection all around him. In a diamond he would have to cover as much or more ground and be even quicker about doing it, and I'm just not sure he has that level of athleticism, especially over a full 90 mins. I sound like an American harping on about athleticism, but I could see it being an issue.
If Herrera's position wasn't strengthened, then DM and CB would absolutely have to be in order to keep our defense as strong as possible. That attack would look really good if Martial/Rashford are the real deal (still not convinced by either)
I have doubts we can pull this transfer off, think it will depend on how we play for the rest of the season
Not necessarily, not at all. When you defend, the #10 falls back into central midfield, like Mkhi has always done for us. The two MCs spread wide to keep an eye on the fullbacks and effectively the diamond flattens, with the #10 playing just slightly in from of the DM. When you get the ball, the #10 and the and the LCM (Pog) push forward while the other DM and other CM (Herrera) retain their shape in case the ball gets turned over.
You seem to forget that Inter nullified a Bayern that was playing 4-2-3-1 with Robben and Ribery on the wings (although Ribery was banned for that match). They didn't struggle at all. And Bayern were definitely the better team in terms of quality and personell.
While I can concede some points about the fullback, I cannot (personally) accept this point at all. Are you more dependend on your #10 then you currently are on your only central striker (Ibra)? I would argue with Pogba freed and 2 strikers, you have a better redundancy system in case you #10 gets nullified. One of the strikers can drop deeper on Pogba push further up. Who can provide a threat other than Ibra currently? If you shut him down, you shut United down.
Yet they conquered Europe. At least twice under Mourinho alone. Against 4-2-3-1s and 4-3-3s.
Any merit that a 4-2-3-1 might have gets nullified when you don't have the right players for it. You try to fit a square peg in a round hole. Pogba can't be trusted in a midfield 2 against decent teams, yet is not scoring enough to not play Mkhi at #10. We don't have another target man after Ibra and the players we play as inverted wingers are either not playing as such (Mata is centrally more than the wing) or are not natural at those positions and are under-performing (Martial, Rashford).
What? Herrera currently has no protection. He IS the protection. He is the only one marking in the 4-2-3-1 we play.
It goes without saying, the DM is absolute key and needs great positional awareness. Martial scored 12 goals last season playing on the left of 2 with an ageing and slow Rooney by his side and no #10. I think 2 years more mature, with a peak Griezmann next to him and a Mkhi behind, it's reasonable to expect that he will manage fine. Though there are no guarantees in football, Griezmann could flop too. Finally, you are probably judging Martial on his form this year which has been from the position of an inverted winger in our 4-2-3-1. My argument is that position does not suit him, hence the bad performances.
The real downside of the diamond is that the two fullbacks and CMs need to cover a lot of ground. Still, with valencia, pogba and ander you already have 3 players perfectly suited to it. Throw in the mobile Mhki at AM, too. It's a very good system to play a high pressing line, too(since it can easily morph into a 3-4-3), especially against 3-man midfields
What I mean is that he has a RB + RW covering the wide areas, Carrick behind and Pogba left when we've played that way. It's not like Mata, Lingard, Mhki, etc. don't cover on the right so just by virtue of having a RW, Herrera has less to cover out there and can focus more centrally where he does most of his work. If Valencia or a RB has pushed up, is Herrera the one we want running with wide players on the other team? Well, we know he knows how to foul in those situations but how many yellows would he rack up?
Does the 3-5-2 make more sense even than the diamond? For the purposes of keeping more width, which has been a massive problem for us.
Alternatives to buying Griezmann then?
You seem to be labouring under a misconception. Mourinho used a diamond domestically with Inter but switched to a 4-2-3-1 for their victorious Champions League run, including in the final vs Bayern where Eto'o and Pandev were stationed on the flanks and Sneidjer in the hole.
The 4-4-2 Diamond is a system with strengths and weaknesses like any other; the weaknesses I highlighted are not controversial. Anyway, this has veered dangerously off-topic. Needless to say, should Griezmann arrive this summer, I think we're most-likely to see him deployed in two positions: behind the #9 in a 4-2-3-1, or on the right in a 4-3-3, the two formations Mourinho has been altering between for the last seven years of his career.
Lemar.
Might be considered as tricky as signing Griezmann, but you could see Harry Kane being a target.
How keen the United hierarchy would be is another question - prospect of dealing with Spurs/Levy and Kane not being as commercially valuable.
Attacking wise possibly you are correct, but i still think it would be a problem defensively. Valencia cannot handle a winger and a full back on his own, and there is too much opportunity for the covering player to get pulled out of position leaving gaps elsewhere. It would be a monumental task for a single DM to cover both sides like that. It works in slower paced leagues but i just don't see it working in the PL.
I think Kane would sell shirts easily. I hope we go after Mbappe too.
I doubt that makes any difference in reality. Mkhitaryan isn't exactly a poster boy with a huge social media following.
.......Martial...Griezmann......
Pogba.............................Keita.....
.......Tielemans..Herrera.....
Blind....Rojo..Bailly...Valencia..
If we're going to play 4-4-2, we might as well have athletic and skilful RM like Keita. He's the most versatile mid out there. He can take it to the defenders with the ball at his feet, he can drop deeper and control the play with nice positioning, stringing passes together and then bang! he plays a pass that beats the outstretched feet of defenders and sends the forwards on their way. He's just the kind of player we'd have signed in SAFs time. SAF would have been all over it.
Griezmann will be our spearhead no matter what. His vision, balance and skill level demands it, and I can't see anyone scoring more goals than him if he comes.
Pogba.............................Keita.....
.......Tielemans..Herrera.....
Blind....Rojo..Bailly...Valencia..
If we're going to play 4-4-2, we might as well have athletic and skilful RM like Keita. He's the most versatile mid out there. He can take it to the defenders with the ball at his feet, he can drop deeper and control the play with nice positioning, stringing passes together and then bang! he plays a pass that beats the outstretched feet of defenders and sends the forwards on their way. He's just the kind of player we'd have signed in SAFs time. SAF would have been all over it.
Griezmann will be our spearhead no matter what. His vision, balance and skill level demands it, and I can't see anyone scoring more goals than him if he comes.
I'd rather sign old players
I'm lost for words.
Was just being Cheeky
I should have guessed.
What about our most important player right now? We look lost in attack without Mkhitaryan.
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On a serious note, I like the Atleti style formation, rather play Mkhitaryan RM than Keita. Tielemans I just don't think he is up to it
Stop making sense …
Fair enough about Tielemans, that's just aguess on my part. I just haven't seen the CM I conclusively put my stamp of approval on. Mkhitaryan is fair enough too. I just feel that Keita will fall back into midfield with more aplomb. I also think Keita gives us the agility to compete with Chelsea. Possibly the closest thing we'll get to Scholes, and what we've been missing. I certainly have no objection to Mkhitaryan, but I'll be disappointed if anyone else signs Keita and we don't put up a serious fight.
I like Mkhitaryan, but if we've learned anything in the last few weeks, we need to find alternatives anyway. I didn't suggest we sell him. He could step into that forward line anywhere. No problem from my end.
------------De Gea
Valencia--Smalling--Rojo--Blind
-------Herrera--Pogba
Martial---------------Mkhitaryan
------Griezmann
----------------Zlatan
I think the above represents our best starting XI if we can entice Antoine away from Atletico. It's a 4321 (in defensive stages, with Griezmann dropping in between Martial and Mkhi. In attacking phases, it's more akin to 4411, with Griezmann playing just off of Zlatan, a role he's often played with Atletico. The only dubious part is the midfield duo of Herrera and Pogba. I feel that Pogba isn't disciplined enough to play in a midfield two, at least not without a proper DM (ala Kante) operating behind him. Herrera, as good as he's been for us this season, still doesn't strike me as someone who can compensate for an attack minded midfield partner.
I think we need a right back. Valencia has probably been our best player this season (Zlatan aside), but I still have doubts as to his productivity going forward. I think a "proper" modern fullback who can beat players and chip in with a few goals and 5 or so assists a season, is what we need. A LB is a must as well, unless Jose plans to play Shaw regularly. Perhaps Mendy from Monaco, or someone similar.
TL;DR
We're probably 3-4 top class signings away from challenging for the league. A RB, LB (if we're not going to play Shaw), and a Griezmann (or even a Sanchez) type would solve a lot our problems in terms of providing goals and taking some of the burden away from Zlatan.
Valencia--Smalling--Rojo--Blind
-------Herrera--Pogba
Martial---------------Mkhitaryan
------Griezmann
----------------Zlatan
I think the above represents our best starting XI if we can entice Antoine away from Atletico. It's a 4321 (in defensive stages, with Griezmann dropping in between Martial and Mkhi. In attacking phases, it's more akin to 4411, with Griezmann playing just off of Zlatan, a role he's often played with Atletico. The only dubious part is the midfield duo of Herrera and Pogba. I feel that Pogba isn't disciplined enough to play in a midfield two, at least not without a proper DM (ala Kante) operating behind him. Herrera, as good as he's been for us this season, still doesn't strike me as someone who can compensate for an attack minded midfield partner.
I think we need a right back. Valencia has probably been our best player this season (Zlatan aside), but I still have doubts as to his productivity going forward. I think a "proper" modern fullback who can beat players and chip in with a few goals and 5 or so assists a season, is what we need. A LB is a must as well, unless Jose plans to play Shaw regularly. Perhaps Mendy from Monaco, or someone similar.
TL;DR
We're probably 3-4 top class signings away from challenging for the league. A RB, LB (if we're not going to play Shaw), and a Griezmann (or even a Sanchez) type would solve a lot our problems in terms of providing goals and taking some of the burden away from Zlatan.
I'm bit confused by that formation. Martial on the right and Mkhi on the left?
At least I know you haven't watched Chelsea this season
How so?At least I know you haven't watched Chelsea this season
I mean the other way around, though Mkhi does tend to play through the centre. It's not perfect
You said:
Kanté is not a "proper DM". There is a proper DM playing right behind him, his name is Matic. Kanté plays the disruptor role, he chases the ball, but is not disciplined to sit and protect his back four... he's even worse than Herrera at that.
What I'm telling you is not an opinion, by the way. When the season started Conte played Kanté as the DM and moved Matic further up to harness his playmaking/passing skills. The move backfired as Kanté would chase the ball and go AWOL leaving the defence unprotected. Within 5-6 matches (if memory serves me) Conte switched it around making Matic sit back to protect the defence while Kanté does the harassing.
That's why I said, I know you haven't watched Chelsea
In my opinion, it probably began with the No. 9 shirt being taken from Martial without his knowledge and being given to Zlatan (fair enough because Zlatan is more marketable) but I'm sure that didn't do a world of good to his confidence considering he had a bad Euro tournament. As for Van Persie, he couldn't replicate the form (the following season and the season after before he was sold) that he did have in his first season when he joined United from Arsenal. Hence, the term "one season wonder"
Not buying him?
Martial----Griezmann----(Rashford, Ibra)
-------------Mkhi---------------(Griezmann, Bernardo Silva(?))
Pogba------Keita------(Carrick, Periera, Herrera)
-------------Carrick------------(New DM)
Shaw------------Rojo--Bailly-------------Valencia(Jones, Smalling, Semedo, Blind)
Think this diamond would work well, with the right movement between our attackers. Would also allow Pogba to get further forward and occupy the left side of the pitch more, not hindering his attacking prowess.
-------------Mkhi---------------(Griezmann, Bernardo Silva(?))
Pogba------Keita------(Carrick, Periera, Herrera)
-------------Carrick------------(New DM)
Shaw------------Rojo--Bailly-------------Valencia(Jones, Smalling, Semedo, Blind)
Think this diamond would work well, with the right movement between our attackers. Would also allow Pogba to get further forward and occupy the left side of the pitch more, not hindering his attacking prowess.
Yep. That's about right. I should have just left it to you.
I really don't want to see us switch to a diamond like. It doesn't suit us at all.
Tbf we played some excellent football with the diamond under LVG. We were shit at times too but I can see it working. We need to do something really clever to get us back amongst the elites in europe. This could very well be it.
That is way too unbalanced imo. Need more cover from the midfield that what Herrera and Pogba provide.
I'd say with current system we're already playing with half-a-diamond as on the right wing it's mostly Valencia who gives the width and hugs the line, whereas Mata/Mkhitaryan all drift inside to sit around the #10 position. Martial on the other wing plays as a winger who also cuts in.
Basically we would need a brand new good attacking leftback but this system would play to both Pogba & Griezmann's strengths really.
We have enough trouble playing through teams as it is without accentuating the issue. I think we need to shift the other way and give the team some real width.
We were always at our most dangerous when we had wide players who could beat people paired up with attacking fullbacks. That's what we should be trying to emulate in my opinion.
The thing about a Diamond is that when you have players who're excellent in terms of movement in the final third (like Griezmann and Mkhitaryan) - you can even transition to a Christmas Tree setup with 1 or 2 simple alterations in-game - so width will not always be a worry if you have good wingbacks. eg. This:
Becomes this:
Couple of worrisome things in both setups, though:
1. You'd ideally want a striker who'll hold a high line and play off the shoulder of the centerbacks (like Inzaghi for Milan). That's not the ideal use of Ibrahimović, though he did play a bit of Diamond/Christmas tree under Ancelotti at Milan/Paris Saint-Germain, and Mourinho at Internazionale.
2. Shaw is not ready to man the flank on his own - Valencia can do it on the right because he largely plays as a wingback anyway, but Luke has to work on the timing of his runs, production and positioning when he goes forward. Too many times, he's reticent to drive forward with purpose and doesn't fully commit to joining the attack proper.
3. Ideally, a proper distributor or atleast a consummate passer at 6 (don't have one of those aside from Carrick). Though it's not a necessity if you are good on counters and have sufficient playmakers ahead of the 6. Like Chelsea under Carlo when he played Mikel or Essien at the base with Lampard/Malouda/Ballack/Deco ahead of them in the 3 midfield spots:
Here's Ancelotti's Christmas Tree at Chelsea (against United in 2010 when they won the FA Cup and the League with a record numbers of goals):
Becomes this:
Couple of worrisome things in both setups, though:
1. You'd ideally want a striker who'll hold a high line and play off the shoulder of the centerbacks (like Inzaghi for Milan). That's not the ideal use of Ibrahimović, though he did play a bit of Diamond/Christmas tree under Ancelotti at Milan/Paris Saint-Germain, and Mourinho at Internazionale.
2. Shaw is not ready to man the flank on his own - Valencia can do it on the right because he largely plays as a wingback anyway, but Luke has to work on the timing of his runs, production and positioning when he goes forward. Too many times, he's reticent to drive forward with purpose and doesn't fully commit to joining the attack proper.
3. Ideally, a proper distributor or atleast a consummate passer at 6 (don't have one of those aside from Carrick). Though it's not a necessity if you are good on counters and have sufficient playmakers ahead of the 6. Like Chelsea under Carlo when he played Mikel or Essien at the base with Lampard/Malouda/Ballack/Deco ahead of them in the 3 midfield spots:
Here's Ancelotti's Christmas Tree at Chelsea (against United in 2010 when they won the FA Cup and the League with a record numbers of goals):
Players wouldn't stay static in a diamond. In the formation I posted above all of the midfielders, strikers and 10 will occupy the wings on occasions, that position then being filled by someone else.
Getting wide players doesn't change the fact that we can't finish for shite. Not to add - what player at the club do we have who can hug the line? Maybe Lingard? We'd need to spend upwards of 70m for the required quality on both wings whilst ignoring our biggest problem is that we can't finish.
A diamond would work well given that a large number of our attackers can play anywhere in the attack and would drop in and rotate really well. Not to add we'd get the best out of Pogba and let Griezmann do what he does best - finish
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