[Raven]

So he said something that doesn't fall within your opinion of the player essentially? You know why a lot of people say those things about Martial? Because that's what they see. He's a divisive player. People are going to have different opinions on him. You're seeing what you see, they are seeing what they see. Football is about opinions. Someone's hard working midfielder, is someone else's clogger with no skill. You lot are acting like anything outside of your field of view is wrong and needs to be dismissed immediately as only praise can be tolerated. Then it gets bitchy. You don't even know if he's from the UK to be listening to Sky Sports.

He wasn't even dismissed as someone repeating what they heard on Sky Sports. He was dismissed as someone that "doesn't like Martial" based on nothing. It's a with us or against us, we are Martial FC thing in here.

I'm what would be described as Martial FC and I see flaws in his game. Unfortunately when people throw around the same tired old cliches that I hear on repeat from the likes of Gary Neville it really takes away from critical analysis of his actual game.

People describe Rashford as our best player and possibly world class yet when Martial was out, he was muck and couldn't compensate for Martial's injury. Martial since Rashford's injury has had to adapt his game again and has absolutely stepped up in Rashford's absence.

I would like to see Martial being a little more direct at times and be a little more aggressive when demanding the ball (I often see him asking for the ball through the lines and in tight spaces but not receiving the pass). I will by all means have a discussion with someone who can discuss his game rationally but I'm not interested in talking about his work rate and desire because he's clearly improved that this season along with his left foot and heading.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I'm what would be described as Martial FC and I see flaws in his game. Unfortunately when people throw around the same tired old cliches that I hear on repeat from the likes of Gary Neville it really takes away from critical analysis of his actual game.

People describe Rashford as our best player and possibly world class yet when Martial was out, he was muck and couldn't compensate for Martial's injury. Martial since Rashford's injury has had to adapt his game again and has absolutely stepped up in Rashford's absence.

I would like to see Martial being a little more direct at times and be a little more aggressive when demanding the ball (I often see him asking for the ball through the lines and in tight spaces but not receiving the pass). I will by all means have a discussion with someone who can discuss his game rationally but I'm not interested in talking about his work rate and desire because he's clearly improved that this season along with his left foot and heading.

What you view as a tired old cliche is what other people are seeing in Martial's performances though. Football is a game of opinions. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in their opinion of him. I'm saying the sheer bitchiness in here and the need to dismiss anyone viewing him negatively as a hater or some sort of sheep that only listens to pundits is weird. Only the criticism that's deemed acceptable is acceptable? It seems none of it is.

I don't even really care about debating football at the minute as there is none. I questioned why a specific post was dismissed as someone that doesn't like Martial. Nowhere in that post did it criticize his workrate or desire. Yet it was still dismissed as not liking Martial. I'm just pointing out this thread has degenerated into you either praise him or you must be dismissed or belittled circle of strangeness that ebbs and flows depending on if he's played well or not. He both plays well and not well. He can play poorly and get the job done sometimes. Just as he can play well yet people can still feel we need better. He has matches where he is great, matches where he is shit and everything in between. It's not a black and white either/or thing. All nuance gets lost in here and becomes hater or Martial FC.

I think I frequent this more than other performance threads because it's so weird to watch some of you going on the way you do. With no football on I'm just bored and questioning it. It's fascinating.

 

[Kappa123]

The worship for such a mediocre player is truly hard to understand. It's one thing to defend a player against unjust criticism but then why take it to the other extreme?

People overrating Martial and his magic "talent" and "potential" are absurd. He's not even that good as a wide player, forget striker... he's not a top player at all.

 

[hmchan]

He did what a lot of people do in this thread, parroted the sentiments they hear on Sky Sports, I'm sure they don't even realise they're doing it. Unfortunately critical analysis is dying in modern society and people are more and more frequently just repeating the tired old cliches that the people on tv tell them. It's only this easily noticeable because we all watch the same thing.

We talk about the low level of punditry and media in Britain yet continue to spew the same propaganda they want us to. This has become an issue of huge annoyance to me over the last 5 or so years, not just I football, but politics and current affairs as well.

When people start banging on about Martial's lack of work rate, desire and mentality it's almost as annoying for me as people parroting Boris or Trump.

I'm sorry that I let you down. As suggested from my username and poor English, I come from Hong Kong and I never know how Skysports comments on Martial. In fact, the local media here tend to describe Martial (and Herrera btw) like a god, and I'm using my critical thinking to look at his flaws and weaknesses.

Meanwhile, it's pretty clear you haven't gone through my post. I bet you just classify me as "anti-Martial" and assume I'm just like the others. In fact, none of my points is targetting Martial's work rate, desire or mentality. What I care most is his center forward play and consistency (please refer to #5028).

 

[amolbhatia50k]

This is what I disagree with.

I think Martial is diffecient myself to be the only striker to play as a sole striker in the team but asking him to create chances for players like James, Mata is different to asking him to create chances for Rashford and Greenwood because he is so clearly a system player.

I thought he was bloody fantastic when Rashford was in form and was playing an all round game that he isnt doing now even though now he is scoring more goals nearly every game.

The difference now is that the goal scoring ability of our forwards have reduced without Rashford and it's just Martial left and he has had to step up and he has stepped up to an 'okay' level whilst the rest of his game that requires a system and players like Rashford making runs off him is no longer there.

Greenwood is the only one who is of the same mould of Rashford & Martial but he's not ready to start every game in my opinion.

I think when Ole gets Rashford back he puts Rashford back on the left and makes Martial play the way he was playing during the period when Rashford was scoring goals non stop - back towards the goal, wonderful first touch, flicks behind bringing runs behind him and hopefully by then Greenwood will be ready do take over James on the right forward spot. Make Martial the False 9 we saw for only 2 months until Rashford got injured.

Rashford & Greenwood are our real forwards in that formation and martial is a glue that drops deeps and try to interlink and make passes inbetween them. I think it will even get the best out of Bruno Fernandes because Martial can hold on to the ball to lay off chances for Bruno Fernandes and Pogba rather than trying to be this 'Haaland type forward' he isnt whilst they also create chances from wider but centralised positions to players like Rashford and Greenwood to finish chances.

We do need a more traditional striker when the Martial false 9 tactic doesn't work - but people act like this sh*t has failed when we haven't even tried it out. Rashford got injured in to 2 months of trying it and Greenwood is still a young player and apparently according to the athletic we were outscoring Liverpool in that formation even with CAM's like Lingard and Pereira.

Martial has been playing at a much higher level than an okay level. He's been excellent over the last 6-7 or something where he's been in a goalscoring run. And he's in general had a very good season considering a chunk of it was spent injured.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

mediocre player .. he's not a top player at all.

Rubbish post.

 

[Handré1990]

What you view as a tired old cliche is what other people are seeing in Martial's performances though. Football is a game of opinions. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in their opinion of him. I'm saying the sheer bitchiness in here and the need to dismiss anyone viewing him negatively as a hater or some sort of sheep that only listens to pundits is weird. Only the criticism that's deemed acceptable is acceptable? It seems none of it is.

I don't even really care about debating football at the minute as there is none. I questioned why a specific post was dismissed as someone that doesn't like Martial. Nowhere in that post did it criticize his workrate or desire. Yet it was still dismissed as not liking Martial. I'm just pointing out this thread has degenerated into you either praise him or you must be dismissed or belittled circle of strangeness that ebbs and flows depending on if he's played well or not. He both plays well and not well. He can play poorly and get the job done sometimes. Just as he can play well yet people can still feel we need better. He has matches where he is great, matches where he is shit and everything in between. It's not a black and white either/or thing. All nuance gets lost in here and becomes hater or Martial FC.

I think I frequent this more than other performance threads because it's so weird to watch some of you going on the way you do. With no football on I'm just bored and questioning it. It's fascinating.

Yep, I’m with you on that. I love watching Martial in form, it’s a sight to behold. Nevertheless, this is the first season he has actually, without a doubt, taken a massive step forward in his development since his debut season. Makes the critique police squad in here even weirder. Remember someone said they’d prefer Haaland on top for us in October or around that time (and that was all), and was subsequently told to stop shitting on Martial.

Anyway, looks like we might actually get to see the best version of Martial for United, which was far from certain a year ago, and I for one am thrilled!

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yep, I’m with you on that. I love watching Martial in form, it’s a sight to behold. Nevertheless, this is the first season he has actually, without a doubt, taken a massive step forward in his development since his debut season. !

True. But two of those seasons were under Mourinho who is poor with young flair players, and didn't have a good relationship with him.

 

[Kappa123]

Rubbish post.

See this is what I mean about taking it to the other extreme. You don't like my opinion that Martial is average so my post is "rubbish". The word mediocre is not an insult, it means bang average which is what Martial is.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

See this is what I mean about taking it to the other extreme. You don't like my opinion that Martial is average so my post is "rubbish". The word mediocre is not an insult, it means bang average which is what Martial is.

It's not so much that I don't like your opinion, as your opinion and post being completely incorrect and rubbish respectively.

 

[Handré1990]

True. But two of those seasons were under Mourinho who is poor with young flair players, and didn't have a good relationship with him.

Yeah, I know, but see, so was Rashford. He had a pretty clear development despite everything. I’ve always thought Martial would become the better player, which I’m not so sure about anymore. Martial had it all from the start. Tbf that might just be more testament to Rashford’s character than a blight on Martial‘s. Mourinho really did a number on a lot of players. We should really count our blessings in that we got rid of Mourinho, now we get to see these two wreak havoc in the red shirt.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah, I know, but see, so was Rashford. He had a pretty clear development despite everything. I’ve always thought Martial would become the better player, which I’m not so sure about anymore. Martial had it all from the start. Tbf that might just be more testament to Rashford’s character than a blight on Martial‘s. Mourinho really did a number on a lot of players. We should really count our blessings in that we got rid of Mourinho, now we get to see these two wreak havoc in the red shirt.

Did Rashford? Remember him getting a lot of cricism for being a kick and run merchant.

 

[Handré1990]

Did Rashford? Remember him getting a lot of cricism for being a kick and run merchant.

Maybe from posters like the one you just responded to. Myself, and most on here (I think) called it a young player going through the normal growing pains. He had about two shit periods in both of the previous seasons, but he always came back stronger. I think that’s pretty normal for a player of his age and profile.

Just off the top of my head I’d say Rashford’s worked on his shooting, passing, positioning and runs, and his core strength. He has great technique, but is inconsistent in using it, which I feel is getting better as well. Martial kind of had it all from the start, except I’ve noticed he’s more comfortable shooting with his left this season, and of course his application in matches now is taking him places I thought he’d reach a couple of years ago. Again, it’s not a huge shock that a player is doing better and giving more of him self when happy and trusted by his manager, who he seems to be getting along with very well.

 

[Raven]

I'm sorry that I let you down. As suggested from my username and poor English, I come from Hong Kong and I never know how Skysports comments on Martial. In fact, the local media here tend to describe Martial (and Herrera btw) like a god, and I'm using my critical thinking to look at his flaws and weaknesses.

Meanwhile, it's pretty clear you haven't gone through my post. I bet you just classify me as "anti-Martial" and assume I'm just like the others. In fact, none of my points is targetting Martial's work rate, desire or mentality. What I care most is his center forward play and consistency (please refer to #5028).

I don't classify many as anti Martial, I think people are too quick to repeat the drivel they hear from genius' like Neville. I do admit I didn't realise you were from Hong Kong and don't know anything about your journalism or perception of players, but this not a proper CF talk is also on my list of tired old cliches.

We first have to determine what proper "centre forward play" is exactly. For me, the basics are good hold up and link up play with goals. He ticks both of those boxes for me. Can he improve? Absolutely. I fully expect him to kick on further, especially given his improvement so far this season. Can you please let me know what you think is proper "centre forward play" is?

 

[Stacks]

I'd rather watch them play football together.

each to their own I guess........

 

[Santoryo]

I don't classify many as anti Martial, I think people are too quick to repeat the drivel they hear from genius' like Neville. I do admit I didn't realise you were from Hong Kong and don't know anything about your journalism or perception of players, but this not a proper CF talk is also on my list of tired old cliches.

We first have to determine what proper "centre forward play" is exactly. For me, the basics are good hold up and link up play with goals. He ticks both of those boxes for me. Can he improve? Absolutely. I fully expect him to kick on further, especially given his improvement so far this season. Can you please let me know what you think is proper "centre forward play" is?

"What is proper CF play?" is the current cliche people on the internet have heard from these lazy pundits and "analysts" so they keep regurgitating it at every chance given it's a criticism that seemingly doesn't require much effort explaining because it's the new "buzz" criticism to throw around and the sheep mentality in people just allow themselves to swallow every single bit of lazy punditry shown on television.

A few months ago no one on these boards uttered those words then the likes of Neville etc spouted it on TV and now that's all some seem to be able to talk about.

Like you mentioned it's just a lazy cliché some people stick with now to throw criticism at Martial no matter how wrong it is. The man is putting 2 in 3 goals/assists numbers wise this season despite our struggles for creativity yet you still get those random and ridiculous criticisms of Martial.

You just can't win with certain people it's as simple as that.

 

[Stacks]

I really don't understand what's happening here. Is this a place where we can only priase and flatter players? I have a printed Martial shirt on my own and I want him to be success, suddenly I become an anti-Martial fan? Every player has some flaws and weaknesses, even our arguably best player Pogba receives plenty of criticisms every day, why we can't comment negatively on Martial? Is he really so perfect that he has nothing to improve on? I've read multiple player performance threads but I've never seen something like this.

Yes

I don't know, mate. It's been going on for ages. It comes across as a subset of people caring more about Martial than the club then acting like teenage girls that have had their favourite boyband disrespected when they see anything that's not praise or is outside of their narrow definition of what kind of player they think he is. It's bizarre in here and has made the thread a bit of a farce.
[/QUOTE

It's called Martial FC goddammit!

 

[Andersons Dietician]

What you view as a tired old cliche is what other people are seeing in Martial's performances though.

Then this is why they need pulled up because they clearly aren’t watching closely.

The problem is the herd believes that Martial is lazy, therefore when there is nothing really to say they whip out false beliefs from the past which continues the lazy journalism. I’m sure he probably can give more, I’m sure every player bar Fred can give more. However to say Martial is lazy needs pulling up.

Makes lots of runs, moves in to space loads, organises the entire front line when we need to press and has shown he’s pretty good at it. He gets back and defends, he gets forward, he makes runs front and back post but if he doesn’t make one run that is what’s focused on instead of the 10 or 11 he made previously where he wasn’t found.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Then this is why they need pulled up because they clearly aren’t watching closely.

The problem is the herd believes that Martial is lazy, therefore when there is nothing really to say they whip out false beliefs from the past which continues the lazy journalism. I’m sure he probably can give more, I’m sure every player bar Fred can give more. However to say Martial is lazy needs pulling up.

Makes lots of runs, moves in to space loads, organises the entire front line when we need to press and has shown he’s pretty good at it. He gets back and defends, he gets forward, he makes runs front and back post but if he doesn’t make one run that is what’s focused on instead of the 10 or 11 he made previously where he wasn’t found.

They don't need pulled up for having a different opinion than you. The fact you describe it as needing pulled up is part of the problem here.

Again, the post that started this in no way described Martial as lazy. It critiqued him and was then dismissed as "some people just don't like Martial". You can't dismiss everyone that doesn't think he's the dogs bollocks as part of a herd or only listening to pundits that aren't approved of.

I've personally never seen him organise the front line when we need to press. I've seen him occasionally press with intensity, but usually without intensity. I've seen other players have to sprint past him to press while he doesn't block passing lines or press. Likewise I've seen him press well at times. I don't think he does organise the attack or pressing. Yet I don't feel you need to be pulled up for thinking otherwise.

Why would people that think differently about a football player than you need pulled up?

 

[Sayros]

This thread is always fascinating, I don't think there is a more polarizing player in recent times. There are some who criticize him validly that get dismissed as haters, as if Martial was free of all reproach, and there are others who see that and act as if every one here thinks he's the greatest talent world football has ever seen. Neither of those are true, and as always the truth is always somewhere in the middle. There is a constant tug and pull between 'Martial FC' and 'The Anti-Martial brigade'. There are some posters who have a constant need to bring him down in part because they feel he is undeservedly brought up by others, and vice versa. It's going absolutely nowhere and gets more and more hyperbolic.

I'm definitely more in the 'Martial FC' camp if we're going to boil it down to simple labels, but I feel he is deserving of some criticism in his career, however not as much lately. I've seen it all since he's come to this club. After all fell in love with him at the start, especially when he quickly shut the English press who was slaughtering United for spending a world-record on a teenager most had never heard of. Starting his second season, the knives were out, he was lazy, his body language, weak mentally, not bothered, his body language, his off-the-field issues, his body language, diva about his number taken away, his off-the-ball efforts/runs. Did I mention body language?

I think he's improved on all those things, and I never thought he was mentally weak because he would have left the club by now, during the Mourinho years especially, but he's always found a way to come back. He's managed to deal with both on and off the field issues to now be the starting CF for the club. This is the first time in his career that he is getting to play this position and thus far, his output has been solid and what you would want at a top club from that position. He is a huge reason why Rashford was having a breakout season.

There are always exceptions, but most forwards need some kind of stability, and they need a midfielder or two that can put them in good positions to be effective. There's a reason why Bruno and Martial are getting along so well because game recognizes game and Martial and Bruno speak the same language. It's a shame that the world has stopped with this virus for so many more important reasons, but also because once again this stability is going to be shaken but hopefully not broken once (or if?) the season resumes, but I think it's very exciting to see what the future holds for Martial.

 

[hmchan]

I don't classify many as anti Martial, I think people are too quick to repeat the drivel they hear from genius' like Neville. I do admit I didn't realise you were from Hong Kong and don't know anything about your journalism or perception of players, but this not a proper CF talk is also on my list of tired old cliches.

We first have to determine what proper "centre forward play" is exactly. For me, the basics are good hold up and link up play with goals. He ticks both of those boxes for me. Can he improve? Absolutely. I fully expect him to kick on further, especially given his improvement so far this season. Can you please let me know what you think is proper "centre forward play" is?

For me center forward play includes but not limited to the following elements:

1. Hold off opponents and protect the ball up front, just like how Ighalo did in the second goal against City. Imo this is the weakest part of Martial's game and he is often easily pinned down by opponent's center backs. He has done far from enough in that respect and the Wolves game is a typical example of it. I respect your opinion that he ticks the boxes for you but I guess we have to agree to disagree on that.

2. Drag opponents out and create spaces for teammates. Good strikers can occupy opponent's center backs and lure them out of positions. However, more often then not, Martial finds himself in a harmless position where he can't become a threat to the opposition. To be fair, I don't think desire is what he is lacking, but appropriate coaching and understanding in the game indeed.

3. Get into the box for crosses. Martial's heading ability is fine, problem is he always finds himself so far away from goal that he can't exert his threat. We often find no red shirt in the box when the ball is in the wide area, and hence there is no target for the wide players to cross. Again, I don't think desire is what he is lacking, but appropriate coaching and understanding in the game indeed.

4. Goalscoring. As stated in #5028, it's nice to see Martial improve his goal tallies, and I'm glad that he's moving towards the right direction.

In fact, what Ole compliments on Ighalo is exactly what Martial is lacking. The clip below isn't targetted at Martial originally (just ignore the subtitles), but it clearly demonstrates the above points and the inadequate off-the-ball movement from him.



The real old cliche here is about how many goals Martial have scored recently blah blah blah, but many miss the fact that goalscoring isn't the only requirement for a striker in modern football. Compared to strikers in other big 6 clubs such as Firmino, Aguero and Kane, there is a significant difference in class between Martial and them. As stated in #5028, I don't think it's urgent for us to sign a striker, especially with Ighalo as a reliable backup. But if Martial can't improve on the above-mentioned areas, we have to reconsider our choices in the long run to chase for titles. Chicharito was a potent goalscoring poacher (even more efficient than Martial) but he was poor in other areas and failed, I'm reluctant to see Martial follow his path.

 

[VP89]

It's not so much that I don't like your opinion, as your opinion and post being completely incorrect and rubbish respectively.

Relax, he just said Martial is mediocre. It's harsh but I don't think it's without warrant to insinuate he's not a top player.

 

[Foxbatt]

Johan Cruijff was classified as a CF but if he had played in England he would have been crucified for not doing things the so called English "experts" say he should be doing. Martial is scoring goals and bringing others into play and also defending when needed. He is a team player and so what he does is what is good for the team. So long as he is scoring goals or creating goals for others so be it. Let him do what best he can do. Not what he is not good at.

 

[Handré1990]

This thread is always fascinating, I don't think there is a more polarizing player in recent times. There are some who criticize him validly that get dismissed as haters, as if Martial was free of all reproach, and there are others who see that and act as if every one here thinks he's the greatest talent world football has ever seen. Neither of those are true, and as always the truth is always somewhere in the middle. There is a constant tug and pull between 'Martial FC' and 'The Anti-Martial brigade'. There are some posters who have a constant need to bring him down in part because they feel he is undeservedly brought up by others, and vice versa. It's going absolutely nowhere and gets more and more hyperbolic.

I'm definitely more in the 'Martial FC' camp if we're going to boil it down to simple labels, but I feel he is deserving of some criticism in his career, however not as much lately. I've seen it all since he's come to this club. After all fell in love with him at the start, especially when he quickly shut the English press who was slaughtering United for spending a world-record on a teenager most had never heard of. Starting his second season, the knives were out, he was lazy, his body language, weak mentally, not bothered, his body language, his off-the-field issues, his body language, diva about his number taken away, his off-the-ball efforts/runs. Did I mention body language?

I think he's improved on all those things, and I never thought he was mentally weak because he would have left the club by now, during the Mourinho years especially, but he's always found a way to come back. He's managed to deal with both on and off the field issues to now be the starting CF for the club. This is the first time in his career that he is getting to play this position and thus far, his output has been solid and what you would want at a top club from that position. He is a huge reason why Rashford was having a breakout season.

There are always exceptions, but most forwards need some kind of stability, and they need a midfielder or two that can put them in good positions to be effective. There's a reason why Bruno and Martial are getting along so well because game recognizes game and Martial and Bruno speak the same language. It's a shame that the world has stopped with this virus for so many more important reasons, but also because once again this stability is going to be shaken but hopefully not broken once (or if?) the season resumes, but I think it's very exciting to see what the future holds for Martial.

Very good summary! I mainly criticize him because of how good I think he can be, he showed a lot of class that first season as a young boy. I think he can be world class. With a better team developing around him he can go as far as he wants. He’s far from a perfect player as of yet though, thus those policing this thread and ‘pulling people up’ on any notion of criticism are getting ridiculous, but whatever works for them I guess.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

They don't need pulled up for having a different opinion than you. The fact you describe it as needing pulled up is part of the problem here.

Again, the post that started this in no way described Martial as lazy. It critiqued him and was then dismissed as "some people just don't like Martial". You can't dismiss everyone that doesn't think he's the dogs bollocks as part of a herd or only listening to pundits that aren't approved of.

I've personally never seen him organise the front line when we need to press. I've seen him occasionally press with intensity, but usually without intensity. I've seen other players have to sprint past him to press while he doesn't block passing lines or press. Likewise I've seen him press well at times. I don't think he does organise the attack or pressing. Yet I don't feel you need to be pulled up for thinking otherwise.

Why would people that think differently about a football player than you need pulled up?

If you told me the sky is green should I not pull you up on it because that’s your opinion?

its not about a dislike or love for a player, it’s about the sheer lack of critical thinking and people being able to view something and form there own valid opinion.

Anyone who is watching Martial and doesn’t see the organising or the pressing/ blocking options he is doing then I suggest they watch closer.

As for the lazy critique I wasn’t singling out that poster, I was just pointing out and using one of the much used sticks to beat Martial with is a fallacy. It’s been said so much and even though it’s not true it continues to get used and cemented like one of the 10 commandments of Martial.

Recently the one used was the Greenwood cutback across the box. I think Martial passed the ball then he did just stand there. Not brilliant play by him but then this was used by media and fans to say he was lazy and so on. Yet the other 5-10 runs he made in the game were funnily enough not used as examples. It’s just rubbish.

I mean it wasn’t too long ago most of the forum thought Jess Lingard was the next coming of Gascoine or something. You know with his world class “movement‘ and ‘passion’

 

[Yagami]

Relax, he just said Martial is mediocre. It's harsh but I don't think it's without warrant to insinuate he's not a top player.

Nah, @amolbhatia50k is right. Martial may not be a top player - yet - but that doesn't make him average/mediocre.

 

[KennyBurner]

The worship for such a mediocre player is truly hard to understand. It's one thing to defend a player against unjust criticism but then why take it to the other extreme?

People overrating Martial and his magic "talent" and "potential" are absurd. He's not even that good as a wide player, forget striker... he's not a top player at all.

I see extreme effects of self isolation has gotten to you. Its understandable you have nothing better to do than to WUM! Carry on.

 

[Raven]

For me center forward play includes but not limited to the following elements:

1. Hold off opponents and protect the ball up front, just like how Ighalo did in the second goal against City. Imo this is the weakest part of Martial's game and he is often easily pinned down by opponent's center backs. He has done far from enough in that respect and the Wolves game is a typical example of it. I respect your opinion that he ticks the boxes for you but I guess we have to agree to disagree on that.

2. Drag opponents out and create spaces for teammates. Good strikers can occupy opponent's center backs and lure them out of positions. However, more often then not, Martial finds himself in a harmless position where he can't become a threat to the opposition. To be fair, I don't think desire is what he is lacking, but appropriate coaching and understanding in the game indeed.

3. Get into the box for crosses. Martial's heading ability is fine, problem is he always finds himself so far away from goal that he can't exert his threat. We often find no red shirt in the box when the ball is in the wide area, and hence there is no target for the wide players to cross. Again, I don't think desire is what he is lacking, but appropriate coaching and understanding in the game indeed.

4. Goalscoring. As stated in #5028, it's nice to see Martial improve his goal tallies, and I'm glad that he's moving towards the right direction.

In fact, what Ole compliments on Ighalo is exactly what Martial is lacking. The clip below isn't targetted at Martial originally (just ignore the subtitles), but it clearly demonstrates the above points and the inadequate off-the-ball movement from him.



The real old cliche here is about how many goals Martial have scored recently blah blah blah, but many miss the fact that goalscoring isn't the only requirement for a striker in modern football. Compared to strikers in other big 6 clubs such as Firmino, Aguero and Kane, there is a significant difference in class between Martial and them. As stated in #5028, I don't think it's urgent for us to sign a striker, especially with Ighalo as a reliable backup. But if Martial can't improve on the above-mentioned areas, we have to reconsider our choices in the long run to chase for titles. Chicharito was a potent goalscoring poacher (even more efficient than Martial) but he was poor in other areas and failed, I'm reluctant to see Martial follow his path.

I'm going to address this post but as a heads up, I think almost every word of it is wrong.

1. Martial has excellent hold up play generally, he hit a short period of bad form in January. I would say Martial's hold up play is superior to Ighalo's as he has more creativity and imagination.

2. If you don't think that Martial creates space for players, how do you think Rashford went from scoring feck all goals while Martial was injured to becoming one of the leagues top scorers when he was back? Wake up.

3. I agree he could get into the box more to attack crosses but it is a 2 way street, the crossers should be trying to find him with cut backs far more often. Martial also spends an awful lot of time linking up play from deep in a similar fashion to Firmino (who I assume is a proper centre forward in your eyes).

Ighalo does possess a number of the qualities that Martial lacks but that is the purpose of having a squad and not just a first XI and Martial has shown great improvement this season and having Ighalo around will only accelerate that.

How can you possibly compare Martial to Chicharito? Honestly, I was expecting a much better effort. "Your" opinion of Martial is so far from accurate that I'm convinced we must be watching different players.

 

[VP89]

Nah, @amolbhatia50k is right. Martial may not be a top player - yet - but that doesn't make him average/mediocre.

He's had tons of average performances dotted around the brilliant ones, and whilst you say "yet", the inconsistency for him could have been passed off at 19, but he's 24 now. I'm tired of placing hopes on Martial turning into a "top player" when the general all round play or goals contribution of the likes of Kane, Augero, Vardy, Aubameyang, Jiminez, even Jesus and Ings are better than his. Yeah when Marital is good he's very good. But he can also be anonymous in long patches, where his general play, movement and instinct is completely off. In those patches he certainly is mediocre.

We all have different opinions here and I'm more than happy to respect those who say Martial is consistent, or that he is a top player. But to just pawn other views that have legit reasoning away as "incorrect" is unnecessarily defensive.

 

[Art Vandelay]

If you told me the sky is green should I not pull you up on it because that’s your opinion?

its not about a dislike or love for a player, it’s about the sheer lack of critical thinking and people being able to view something and form there own valid opinion.

Anyone who is watching Martial and doesn’t see the organising or the pressing/ blocking options he is doing then I suggest they watch closer.

As for the lazy critique I wasn’t singling out that poster, I was just pointing out and using one of the much used sticks to beat Martial with is a fallacy. It’s been said so much and even though it’s not true it continues to get used and cemented like one of the 10 commandments of Martial.

Recently the one used was the Greenwood cutback across the box. I think Martial passed the ball then he did just stand there. Not brilliant play by him but then this was used by media and fans to say he was lazy and so on. Yet the other 5-10 runs he made in the game were funnily enough not used as examples. It’s just rubbish.

I mean it wasn’t too long ago most of the forum thought Jess Lingard was the next coming of Gascoine or something. You know with his world class “movement‘ and ‘passion’

Telling someone the colour of an object is a factual statement. Critiquing a footballer is an opinion. When does their opinion become valid? When it matches yours? You suggest they keep watching until they agree with you?

So some people were wrong about Lingard, which means everyone that doesn't see what you see with Martial is factually incorrect? Lingard had promise for a while, but then he went to utter shit. Martial could go the same way, will you then be wrong about every other player?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Maybe from posters like the one you just responded to. Myself, and most on here (I think) called it a young player going through the normal growing pains. He had about two shit periods in both of the previous seasons, but he always came back stronger. I think that’s pretty normal for a player of his age and profile.

Just off the top of my head I’d say Rashford’s worked on his shooting, passing, positioning and runs, and his core strength. He has great technique, but is inconsistent in using it, which I feel is getting better as well. Martial kind of had it all from the start, except I’ve noticed he’s more comfortable shooting with his left this season, and of course his application in matches now is taking him places I thought he’d reach a couple of years ago. Again, it’s not a huge shock that a player is doing better and giving more of him self when happy and trusted by his manager, who he seems to be getting along with very well.

I mean, I've always liked Rashford. But like everybody at Manchester United post Sir Alex, he's gone through a non linear development curve with good phases where he excelled and people predictably lauded his talent and also significant spells when he's struggled and people predictably wrote him off as a mediocre talent. Same with Martial as many others. You could argue that Rashford was more of a favourite of Mourinho's and hence got more games to show his qualities but I don't really think he did well under Mourinho. I'm not sure what's the statistics say but 2019 was his improvement year for me. Before that it was fits and starts. Similar to Martial just with a better relationship with Jose as he runs and works harder.

Relax, he just said Martial is mediocre. It's harsh but I don't think it's without warrant to insinuate he's not a top player.

Martial isn't a top player yet. But to call him mediocre and bang average shows a poor understanding of the game, as, well , he's clearly not.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He's had tons of average performances dotted around the brilliant ones, and whilst you say "yet", the inconsistency for him could have been passed off at 19, but he's 24 now. I'm tired of placing hopes on Martial turning into a "top player" when the general all round play or goals contribution of the likes of Kane, Augero, Vardy, Aubameyang, Jiminez, even Jesus and Ings are better than his. Yeah when Marital is good he's very good. But he can also be anonymous in long patches, where his general play, movement and instinct is completely off. In those patches he certainly is mediocre.

We all have different opinions here and I'm more than happy to respect those who say Martial is consistent, or that he is a top player. But to just pawn other views that have legit reasoning away as "incorrect" is unnecessarily defensive.

Except it's not being unnecessarily defensive. It's calling out bullshit which clearly is bullshit. You may be tired and worn out of expecting a 24 year old to be top class who isn't yet. But he's undeniably a very good footballer. How is stating Martial to be a "bang average" or "mediocre" footballer a valid opinion? There was no legitimate reasoning. It was a half baked post with a view that sort of resonates with you and hence you've taken offense to people calling it out, despite it being completely incorrect. And you've proven me right in your response too. Because you're still banging on about him not being Sergio Aguero. Yes he's not an elite CF. We get it. But he is a very good footballer. Hopefully he takes another step up becuase, you know, 24 year olds can do that. But if he doesn't, it doesn't mean he's average or shit or some other standard we can just make up because as children we didn't get the candy we wanted.

 

[hmchan]

Telling someone the colour of an object is a factual statement. Critiquing a footballer is an opinion. When does their opinion become valid? When it matches yours? You suggest they keep watching until they agree with you?

So some people were wrong about Lingard, which means everyone that doesn't see what you see with Martial is factually incorrect? Lingard had promise for a while, but then he went to utter shit. Martial could go the same way, will you then be wrong about every other player?

After these pages of discussions, I'm starting to understand what they are thinking. They are too desperate to demonstrate their critical thinking (maybe they lack in daily life?) and they just simply assume those with different opinions are copycats of Skysports. They are superior because they differ from the media, and the rest have to be pulled up.

Critical thinking is good, but it is only good when it is applied together with multiple perspectives. Criticizing one side's viewpoints while ignoring the opposite's is dangerous, and this will only make you become a radical person.

Here's Martial's ratings in the league games since January on Redcafe. As you can see, he has both very good and very bad games. However, those critical thinkers, or highlight fans, only focus on the goals he scored, and they selectively neglect the poor games he had (or not shown in highlights).

(H) v City 8.1 - 2nd highest
(A) v Everton 4.7 - joint 2nd lowest
(H) v Watford 7.3
(A) v Chelsea 6.7
(H) v Wolves 3.6 - joint 2nd lowest
(H) v Burnley 3.1 - joint 2nd lowest
(A) v Liverpool 5.1
(H) v Norwich 7.2
(A) v Arsenal 4.9

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Here's Martial's ratings in the league games since January on Redcafe. As you can see, he has both very good and very bad games. However, those critical thinkers, or highlight fans, only focus on the goals he scored, and they selectively neglect the poor games he had (or not shown in highlights).

Weird I would say the critical thinkers are the ones that notice the details in performances and all the other things that make up a good performance rather than just goals. I would say the bump in rating was more due to people that don’t recognise these things and only go by goals/assists rather than overall contribution.

Zlatan for example was pretty average overall but banged in goals, yet was heralded as some sort of messiah by fans and media.

@Art Vandelay Its fine that people have different opinions and I can see spotting something like his organisational skills and how good his pressing is as something that’s hard to see and maybe you don’t agree with that. That’s fine.

However people that are saying he doesn’t run, doesn’t make runs, is lazy and so on should be called out because it’s so wrong it’s unbelievable.

 

[Gomes]

Critical thinkers know that 34-year-old Zlatan was better than Martial currently.

 

[Toddler]

He is our best striker, he has improved this year. He has had as good of a season as Rashford. Whether he is good enough is another story but If he can take that small step forward still we have a gem.

 

[Raven]

After these pages of discussions, I'm starting to understand what they are thinking. They are too desperate to demonstrate their critical thinking (maybe they lack in daily life?) and they just simply assume those with different opinions are copycats of Skysports. They are superior because they differ from the media, and the rest have to be pulled up.

Critical thinking is good, but it is only good when it is applied together with multiple perspectives. Criticizing one side's viewpoints while ignoring the opposite's is dangerous, and this will only make you become a radical person.

Here's Martial's ratings in the league games since January on Redcafe. As you can see, he has both very good and very bad games. However, those critical thinkers, or highlight fans, only focus on the goals he scored, and they selectively neglect the poor games he had (or not shown in highlights).

(H) v City 8.1 - 2nd highest
(A) v Everton 4.7 - joint 2nd lowest
(H) v Watford 7.3
(A) v Chelsea 6.7
(H) v Wolves 3.6 - joint 2nd lowest
(H) v Burnley 3.1 - joint 2nd lowest
(A) v Liverpool 5.1
(H) v Norwich 7.2
(A) v Arsenal 4.9

I notice that instead of replying to my comment you've gone off on another tangent. It's funny that you are using ratings that are not your own to prove your critical thinking. As you'll notice throughout this thread, I am about analysing his game overall and whilst goals are an important aspect of that, Martial's biggest strengths for me are his touch, hold up play, link up play, vision and finishing. If you think my entire opinion on my favourite player in the team I never miss a game of is solely based on his goal output then you really should look back in this thread a bit further.

The reason that people assume that these criticisms come from Sky because nobody said it until people on Sky started banging on about it. Go back to December in this thread and there's barely a mention of it.

 

[OldTrevil]

Then this is why they need pulled up because they clearly aren’t watching closely.

The problem is the herd believes that Martial is lazy, therefore when there is nothing really to say they whip out false beliefs from the past which continues the lazy journalism. I’m sure he probably can give more, I’m sure every player bar Fred can give more. However to say Martial is lazy needs pulling up.

Makes lots of runs, moves in to space loads, organises the entire front line when we need to press and has shown he’s pretty good at it. He gets back and defends, he gets forward, he makes runs front and back post but if he doesn’t make one run that is what’s focused on instead of the 10 or 11 he made previously where he wasn’t found.

Brilliantly put.

 

[hmchan]

I notice that instead of replying to my comment you've gone off on another tangent. It's funny that you are using ratings that are not your own to prove your critical thinking. As you'll notice throughout this thread, I am about analysing his game overall and whilst goals are an important aspect of that, Martial's biggest strengths for me are his touch, hold up play, link up play, vision and finishing. If you think my entire opinion on my favourite player in the team I never miss a game of is solely based on his goal output then you really should look back in this thread a bit further.

The reason that people assume that these criticisms come from Sky because nobody said it until people on Sky started banging on about it. Go back to December in this thread and there's barely a mention of it.

I give up replying to your post because I don't feel we can reach a concensus. I respect your opinion that Martial has done enough in hold up play but for me that's certainly inadequate. I guess it's okay for us to adopt different standards and I have no intention to raise yours, but I'm not lowering mine to match yours either.

It's also funny that you only focus on the ratings and neglect all the other evidence I have stated, just like how you look at Martial's strengths without giving a glimpse on his weaknesses. I have posted a clip which clearly demonstrates my points. I have also mentioned the Wolves game in which he was easily pinned down and he delivered nothing at all (in fact there are many more similar games but this is a classic example). I have suggested how he should play using Ighalo as an example. All of these are my own judgments.

Meanwhile, you have presented almost no evidence indeed. All you are doing is just defending by "no he is doing that" or "no he can do that" without any proof. Again, I respect your opinions and yes he can occassionally complete one or two hold up plays but that's certainly not enough for me.

By the way I have spotted Martial's problem since preseason. I wasn't here at that time but I mentioned it in multiple local forums. I know you don't understand Chinese but I provide you with a link as an evidence anyway (feel free to use Google Translate if you want). Making bold assumptions on others isn't critical thinking at all.

https://lihkg.com/thread/1388647/page/36 #893

 

[Yagami]

He's had tons of average performances dotted around the brilliant ones, and whilst you say "yet", the inconsistency for him could have been passed off at 19, but he's 24 now.

The only times he hasn't performed this season is when we've had no Rashford, and vice versa. When they've both had each other - as well as Fernandes in Martial's case - they've both been consistently good.

As for your age comment, I COMPLETELY disagree. When Tevez joined he was around the 23-25 age range, and whilst I was always a fan, he wasn't half the player he was at 26 and over for City and Juventus. So much so that some United fans weren't bothered about City signing him. Players develop at different rates, and this is Martial's FIRST season consistently playing as a CF. After 2 and a half years of being misused by a toxic manager, too.

I'm tired of placing hopes on Martial turning into a "top player" when the general all round play or goals contribution of the likes of Kane, Augero, Vardy, Aubameyang, Jiminez, even Jesus and Ings are better than his. Yeah when Marital is good he's very good. But he can also be anonymous in long patches, where his general play, movement and instinct is completely off. In those patches he certainly is mediocre

Unlike all of them, this is not only his first full season at CF, he's had next to zero service for a lot of his games yet has still managed to score out of nothing in a lot of them. The games where he's played with players with actual quality, which hasn't been that often this season, he's delivered more often than not.

You say that his general play, movement and instinct all go off for long patches in games, but you fail to mention that, again, that coincides with him getting no service, no support up front, and, like all players, yes, inconsistency on his behalf, which all the other forwards you mention suffer from as well.. Anyone of those other strikers, bar probably Aguero, would struggle here under the circumstances, too. It's why Ole was desperate to get some attacking support in January.

If he was as inconsistent with his play in games where he's had Bruno, Rashford, Pogba, etc, you'd have a point, but when he's with players on the same wave length he is fine more often than not.

We all have different opinions here and I'm more than happy to respect those who say Martial is consistent, or that he is a top player. But to just pawn other views that have legit reasoning away as "incorrect" is unnecessarily defensive.

Well, the view was that he was average/mediocre. That is incorrect, and the thinking behind that opinion for many lacks so much context.

Except it's not being unnecessarily defensive. It's calling out bullshit which clearly is bullshit. You may be tired and worn out of expecting a 24 year old to be top class who isn't yet. But he's undeniably a very good footballer. How is stating Martial to be a "bang average" or "mediocre" footballer a valid opinion? There was no legitimate reasoning. It was a half baked post with a view that sort of resonates with you and hence you've taken offense to people calling it out, despite it being completely incorrect. And you've proven me right in your response too. Because you're still banging on about him not being Sergio Aguero. Yes he's not an elite CF. We get it. But he is a very good footballer. Hopefully he takes another step up becuase, you know, 24 year olds can do that. But if he doesn't, it doesn't mean he's average or shit or some other standard we can just make up because as children we didn't get the candy we wanted.

Well said.

I don't know why people are responding to @hmchan either when he comes out with stupid stuff like this:

After these pages of discussions, I'm starting to understand what they are thinking. They are too desperate to demonstrate their critical thinking (maybe they lack in daily life?)