[NewGlory]

Nice Martial compilation



Love Tony's game when he's in form and hope he'll continue a great form when EPL comes back.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The bolded part, why the need to even write it? That is literally exactly what I implied, two shit periods every season. If you can’t see that Martial was a different beast at 19 than Rashford I don’t know what good discussing this further might do. My point is (and was) Martial was a much more complete player at 19 (his debut season) than Rashford. So it is a lot easier to spot Rashford’s development. Never did I say it was linear.

I also find it strange that it is forgotten how important Rashford were in our EL win after Zlatan’s injury. So no, I don’t agree he didn’t do well under Mourinho, but like any player that age, he was inconsistent. If I still haven’t managed to get my point across, this is it; since they both made their debut for the club, Rashford has shown a hell of a lot more development.

Rashford scored 8 in 18 in his first season under LVG and followed that up with
11 in 53
13 in 52
13 in 47

I mean, so like I said he hardly progressed in a big way under Mourinho either. Similar boat as Martial for me, they both had good spells (see the one where Martial went on a 6/7 run scoring spree when Jose was under pressure last season) and bad spells due to inconsistencies of youth and not being managed by somebody who tended to do well with young exciting attackers. The only difference was that Rashford was more in favour. He wasn't doing all that much those chances, which had a fair bit to with Mourinho and the team being disjointed.

But regardless this is not a far fetched view. I can see people feeling the difference in Rashford then and now is greater than Martial then and now. It's not entirely unfair. I just feel there are factors involved and Rashford too was stalling under Jose.

It's not entirely bullshit, because Martial has had patchy form where he's either very good or pretty anonymous and mediocre. His natural talent is one thing, but the consistency on the pitch is another.

No one is expecting him to be world class. He's just in a position for a giant club where inconsistency is rarely forgiven. He's a very good talent but that doesn't mean he hasn't had patches of poor displays that we just ignore.

The reasoning is that he has had mediocre performances that compliment the very good ones. His inconsistency is still a big downfall of his game, and he's running out of excuses at 24. Clearly, not according to @Yagami below who thinks its down to lack of service (guess we have to add that to "he's on the LW it's not his position", "Jose played him wrong", "He was injured" and "he needs Rashford" to the ever growing list of excuses when he's playing poorly.

I named 5-6 strikers in my post, 2-3 from teams below us, 1 fighting relegation as strikers capable of more consistent displays than him this season. And you chose to isolate Augero? Also no one said Martial is shite. For what it's worth I don't think he's .just mediocre either but I'm not going to say an opinion is incorrect about him being mediocre for us, when he has actually had quite a few mediocre displays. Talent is one thing, what you do week on week on the pitch is another.

You're just rambling for no apparent reason. "He's not mediocre but I won't disagree with people saying he is becuase ... Mediocre displays" Well I guess we can start making things up and calling Rooney a mediocre footballer too because of that away game at West Ham on February 02, 2012. In trying to defend that silly post, you're fall into the same vaccum of logic. Essentially you won't be critical of someone who is critical of Martial regardless of the merit of the post (there was no merit to that post).

And your entire post is this - inconsistency. Have a look at his actual season instead - he's had a good one. Whether you feel he can be as good as Maradona or Henry but isn't, ISA completely different matter. It doesn't change that he's a good footballer having a good season. We can't just make up things based on our emotional response or expectations.

As for the list, I can also pull out Raul Jiminez who, had he actually played for us, you'd judge him properly rather than putting him on a pedestal of greatness. I'd rather keep Martial, than hype up players without reason.

Martial can improve in many aspects - especially his intensity. However as I've said before he'd a quality footballer with whom people are obsessively critical. In a team that's creatively poor and usually disjoint we want our CF apparently putting up elite CF numbers. Do I not want him to improve his poaching abilities ? Of course I do. But Martial, Rashford, Bruno etc are the ones in this Manchester United team that actually do tend to perform and I'd rather we improve the rest of the team and it's creativity than constantly knit pick on our better players. I do hope that Martial can step up to being a top player but if he doesn't he's not the player some here irrationally believe he is.

 

[Handré1990]

Rashford scored 8 in 18 in his first season under LVG and followed that up with
11 in 53
13 in 52
13 in 47

I mean, so like I said he hardly progressed in a big way under Mourinho either. Similar boat as Martial for me, they both had good spells (see the one where Martial went on a 6/7 run scoring spree when Jose was under pressure last season) and bad spells due to inconsistencies of youth and not being managed by somebody who tended to do well with young exciting attackers. The only difference was that Rashford was more in favour. He wasn't doing all that much those chances, which had a fair bit to with Mourinho and the team being disjointed.

But regardless this is not a far fetched view. I can see people feeling the difference in Rashford then and now is greater than Martial then and now. It's not entirely unfair. I just feel there are factors involved and Rashford too was stalling under Jose.

Yeah, that’s fair enough. His debut season was pretty great, he came out of nowhere with those 4 goals in 3 days v Midtjylland and Arsenal. I still think Rashford has shown more of that normal curve of a young player though, taking two steps forward and one step back. Martial is a strange one, imo. I see him doing the same thing now as in his first season, only better and more consistently.

Might just be because of how good Martial was at that age I struggle to see a clear development over the years. It seems so easy to spot in Rashford, because when defenders started noticing him or something, he had some truly awful spells after that bright start, yet always seemed to come back a much better player after some time. I was even there in that original Martial vs Rashford thread arguing how Martial had better potential and natural ability, which meant he’d be the better player at this point in time (couple of years later) and in the future when they hit their prime. My view is that Rashford has taken massive steps to close that (perhaps percieved) gap.

Martial is already a very good player, great even on his day. However I really think he can be world class, and I still want more from that highly gifted boy. He was massive vs City, one of the most uplifting performances I’ve ever seen from him. Yet I still want to hit something when I think of those two easy cut-backs he could’ve made for Bruno.

Am I being too greedy? Maybe, but if this is it, I’ll always feel like we never got to enjoy the best possible version of Martial.

 

[VP89]

Rashford scored 8 in 18 in his first season under LVG and followed that up with
11 in 53
13 in 52
13 in 47

I mean, so like I said he hardly progressed in a big way under Mourinho either. Similar boat as Martial for me, they both had good spells (see the one where Martial went on a 6/7 run scoring spree when Jose was under pressure last season) and bad spells due to inconsistencies of youth and not being managed by somebody who tended to do well with young exciting attackers. The only difference was that Rashford was more in favour. He wasn't doing all that much those chances, which had a fair bit to with Mourinho and the team being disjointed.

I'm not referring to goals though - Rashford is always on his toes, his movement is better, he's actually weaker in dribbling in my opinion to Martial, but he gets at players far more.

You're just rambling for no apparent reason. "He's not mediocre but I won't disagree with people saying he is becuase ... Mediocre displays" Well I guess we can start making things up and calling Rooney a mediocre footballer too because of that away game at West Ham on February 02, 2012.

Is this a joke? Did you compare me referencing stretches of inconsistency with Martial to an isolated game of Wayne Fecking Rooney? Jesus this is worse than you trying to suggest I only compared Martial to Augero earlier.

In trying to defend that silly post, you're fall into the same vaccum of logic. Essentially you won't be critical of someone who is critical of Martial regardless of the merit of the post (there was no merit to that post).

I'm really not - Martial has too many mediocre games for my liking. I don't think he's a mediocre player but I'm not surprised some people are labelling him as such with some performances.

And your entire post is this - inconsistency. Have a look at his actual season instead - he's had a good one. Whether you feel he can be as good as Maradona or Henry but isn't, ISA completely different matter. It doesn't change that he's a good footballer having a good season. We can't just make up things based on our emotional response or expectations.

I've seen every game of his just like you have. He's good for a couple, then missing, then good for a couple, then missing. And he's been like that every year for us with a new excuse spun every time. The only consistency is his inconsistent performances.

As for the list, I can also pull out Raul Jiminez who, had he actually played for us, you'd judge him properly rather than putting him on a pedestal of greatness. I'd rather keep Martial, than hype up players without reason.

Jiminez is a superior CF to Martial, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here?

 

[Handré1990]

I'm not referring to goals though - Rashford is always on his toes, his movement is better, he's actually weaker in dribbling in my opinion to Martial, but he gets at players far more.

Is this a joke? Did you compare me referencing stretches of inconsistency with Martial to an isolated game of Wayne Fecking Rooney? Jesus this is worse than you trying to suggest I only compared Martial to Augero earlier.

I'm really not - Martial has too many mediocre games for my liking. I don't think he's a mediocre player but I'm not surprised some people are labelling him as such with some performances.


I've seen every game of his just like you have. He's good for a couple, then missing, then good for a couple, then missing. And he's been like that every year for us with a new excuse spun every time. The only consistency is his inconsistent performances.


Jiminez is a superior CF to Martial, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here?

Sorry to barge in on your discussion, but do you really think that Jimenez is a better CF than Martial? Have to disagree. Very similar output the last two seasons considering playing time, while Jimenez is what, five years older or something. Jimenez is getting the most out of his talent now, while Martial isn’t at his peak yet. Even with those factors in mind, Martial can do things with a fotball Jimenez can only dream of. Case of grass is greener imo, as I’ve seen plenty of games where Jimenez has been anonymous to say the least.

 

[KennyBurner]

Nice Martial compilation



Love Tony's game when he's in form and hope he'll continue a great form when EPL comes back.

James at 5:28 is what most on the forum complain about when saying martial doesnt get into he box more. Look at how James just crosses into the box blindly without raising his head while nobody is currently in there. Mind you he's done that continuously this season. A simple cutback would have been adequate but most on the forum believe a TRUE CF would have been at the end of that cross.

If Martial didn't play for us and we were to watch this video we would all agree he is a 100 million player.

 

[VP89]

Sorry to barge in on your discussion, but do you really think that Jimenez is a better CF than Martial? Have to disagree. Very similar output the last two seasons considering playing time, while Jimenez is what, five years older or something. Jimenez is getting the most out of his talent now, while Martial isn’t at his peak yet. Even with those factors in mind, Martial can do things with a fotball Jimenez can only dream of. Case of grass is greener imo, as I’ve seen plenty of games where Jimenez has been anonymous to say the least.

Age is irrelevant, at this stage Jiminez is better as a CF. His hold up play is just as good or better, his movement is better and his physicality is better. Martial has better dribbling and pace but for a CF position, Jiminez is better as it stands.

Martial has a lot more potential sure but until and unless that's unlocked we can't just say he's better currently.

 

[Handré1990]

Age is irrelevant, at this stage Jiminez is better as a CF. His hold up play is just as good or better, his movement is better and his physicality is better. Martial has better dribbling and pace but for a CF position, Jiminez is better as it stands.

Martial has a lot more potential sure but until and unless that's unlocked we can't just say he's better currently.

I think they’re about the same level now, only Martial is better imo. Martial is a player who can make something out of nothing, besides all their other attributes, that certainly edges it for me. Jimenez is a very good player too though.

 

[Stacks]

Nice Martial compilation



Love Tony's game when he's in form and hope he'll continue a great form when EPL comes back.

The most intriguing for me was to see how he would fare with both Bruno and Pogbs feeding him. Then next season when Rashford returns. Sadly I don't think I'll be watching football for a long time.......

 

[Stacks]

Sorry to barge in on your discussion, but do you really think that Jimenez is a better CF than Martial? Have to disagree. Very similar output the last two seasons considering playing time, while Jimenez is what, five years older or something. Jimenez is getting the most out of his talent now, while Martial isn’t at his peak yet. Even with those factors in mind, Martial can do things with a fotball Jimenez can only dream of. Case of grass is greener imo, as I’ve seen plenty of games where Jimenez has been anonymous to say the least.

Age is irrelevant, at this stage Jiminez is better as a CF. His hold up play is just as good or better, his movement is better and his physicality is better. Martial has better dribbling and pace but for a CF position, Jiminez is better as it stands.

Martial has a lot more potential sure but until and unless that's unlocked we can't just say he's better currently.

Stats wise they are quite similar with Jimenez having the slightly better goal involvement to minute ratio. It could come down to what you prefer stylistically as Martial gives you that flexibility to interchange across the whole front 3.

I am surprised at home many assists Jimenez has laid on for his teammates though. Impressive.

 

[Handré1990]

Stats wise they are quite similar with Jimenez having the slightly better goal involvement to minute ratio. It could come down to what you prefer stylistically as Martial gives you that flexibility to interchange across the whole front 3.

I am surprised at home many assists Jimenez has laid on for his teammates though. Impressive.

I know it’s not scientific evidence, but every time I watch a Martial compilation I can’t help but think how many more assists he should’ve had

 

[Stacks]

I know it’s not scientific evidence, but every time I watch a Martial compilation I can’t help but think how many more assists he should’ve had

These are compilations so will show the highlights over a period of time. You can't expect a player to put away every chance you make for them as missing chances is part and parcel.

If we look at big chances created this season, not a single United player made the top 20. Even Jordan Henderson did. Jimenez was 4th. Our highest was Dan James who is also our leading assist maker so it goes hand in hand.

In terms of chances created, De Bruyne leads on assists and big chances created. The top 3 for big chances created also lead the assists table.

Personally I would ignore those compilations because unless your application or output of creating chances are high, chances are you won't get the assists as you are expecting your teammates to be clinical.

 

[Trex]

These are compilations so will show the highlights over a period of time. You can't expect a player to put away every chance you make for them as missing chances is part and parcel.

If we look at big chances created this season, not a single United player made the top 20. Even Jordan Henderson did. Jimenez was 4th. Our highest was Dan James who is also our leading assist maker so it goes hand in hand.

In terms of chances created, De Bruyne leads on assists and big chances created. The top 3 for big chances created also lead the assists table.

Personally I would ignore those compilations because unless your application or output of creating chances are high, chances are you won't get the assists as you are expecting your teammates to be clinical.

well pogba would have been if he stayed fit and fernandes if we signed him in the summer

 

[Handré1990]

These are compilations so will show the highlights over a period of time. You can't expect a player to put away every chance you make for them as missing chances is part and parcel.

If we look at big chances created this season, not a single United player made the top 20. Even Jordan Henderson did. Jimenez was 4th. Our highest was Dan James who is also our leading assist maker so it goes hand in hand.

In terms of chances created, De Bruyne leads on assists and big chances created. The top 3 for big chances created also lead the assists table.

Personally I would ignore those compilations because unless your application or output of creating chances are high, chances are you won't get the assists as you are expecting your teammates to be clinical.

Yeah I know, hence the «I know it’s not scientific evidence» caveat. It’s not for this season I’m talking about either, but bits from his whole time here, which makes it even less empiric. I bet both Pogba and Bruno would be up there if they had a whole season though.

 

[Art Vandelay]

No, he didn't want to start with the forward line he had, but I do think he was completely comfortable with Martial leading the line.

I don't think Ole sees Martial as a definite, nailed on starting XI striker in his long-term vision. I do believe he wants him as part of a rotation of strikers. He wants competition for those spots and I don't think he'd promise Martial or anybody we brought in to challenge him, a starting role.

I think there are two extremes in this thread where he's either a world-beater or bang average who needs replacing. Imo the truth lies in between and that's how I feel Ole sees it as well.

I don't disagree really. My point is in regards to people that are suggesting Ole sees him as a star player or that he's definitely happy with him as our striker. We don't really know that until he's had some competition. Last season he tended to choose Rashford or Lukaku up there, this season Rashford has taken Martial's place on the wing and Martial has been the only option as a striker. So there's no basis yet to make such statements as we could very well upgrade in that position.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I don't disagree really. My point is in regards to people that are suggesting Ole sees him as a star player or that he's definitely happy with him as our striker. We don't really know that until he's had some competition. Last season he tended to choose Rashford or Lukaku up there, this season Rashford has taken Martial's place on the wing and Martial has been the only option as a striker. So there's no basis yet to make such statements as we could very well upgrade in that position.

If you look at the period immediately after Martial returned from injury and we started scoring again, Ole was quite praising of him in his interviews. He made it clear that Martial was highly rated, and not just the only option we had.

And remember, that was with Rashford leading the line the matches prior.

 

[Art Vandelay]

If you look at the period immediately after Martial returned from injury and we started scoring again, Ole was quite praising of him in his interviews. He made it clear that Martial was highly rated, and not just the only option we had.

And remember, that was with Rashford leading the line the matches prior.

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...raises-jesse-lingard-after-astana-2-man-utd-1

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...-striker-romelu-lukaku-ahead-of-brighton-game

He tends to praise the players. It doesn't mean much.

 

[He'sRaldo]

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...raises-jesse-lingard-after-astana-2-man-utd-1

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...-striker-romelu-lukaku-ahead-of-brighton-game

He tends to praise the players. It doesn't mean much.

You're right that actions speak louder than words, especially in Ole's case.

Looking at his actions, he made space for Martial to be first-choice this season and played him over Rashford in that position ever since the beginning of preseason. Come the January window, he wasn't after a first-choice striker the same way he was after a first-choice AM. Until Rashford's injury, he'd wrap Martial in cotton wool once matches were won, to be sure he didn't get injured. Those actions tell me that at least for now, he does rate Martial highly.

What formed your opinion that he may not rate him that highly?

 

[Raven]

If you look at the period immediately after Martial returned from injury and we started scoring again, Ole was quite praising of him in his interviews. He made it clear that Martial was highly rated, and not just the only option we had.

And remember, that was with Rashford leading the line the matches prior.

I think it's pretty apparent how much Ole rates Martial, I'm not sure where people are getting any other idea.

 

[Bebestation]

These are compilations so will show the highlights over a period of time. You can't expect a player to put away every chance you make for them as missing chances is part and parcel.

If we look at big chances created this season, not a single United player made the top 20. Even Jordan Henderson did. Jimenez was 4th. Our highest was Dan James who is also our leading assist maker so it goes hand in hand.

In terms of chances created, De Bruyne leads on assists and big chances created. The top 3 for big chances created also lead the assists table.

Personally I would ignore those compilations because unless your application or output of creating chances are high, chances are you won't get the assists as you are expecting your teammates to be clinical.

This is the first time I agree with you.

Martial has struggled when playing with Daniel James especially in the 433 because hes a traditional winger than a team mate who is clinical in comparison to Rashford and you can see the way Martial and Rashford work together is better than how Martial and James work on the right hand side.

We had games where we had to play sometimes with Mata and sometimes with Greenwood- maybe it's just fans with an eye for football who sees it but he tends to play better with clinical players like Greenwood in the 433 than with players like Mata and James trying to create him 10 chances for him to score a tap in from - I wonder why? Maybe because he is better at getting the best out of clinical players out wide than utilising the chances made from out wide to put away chances himself by him being the one and only striker at United? Hence why some fans have noticed Ole has used the false 9 with Martial whilst he has also used the false 9 with other players who has literally admitted it themselves ( lingard admitting it to metro in 2019 playing same formation as Martial did with Rashford & James).

The thing is I never thought Martial is the most clinical striker at United - it's an aspect that's been a bit overrated due to his ability to finesse a shot in in comparison to someone like Rashford who pumps a shot in but when you add the ability to find himself in the right position- that adds to tenacity and a player's clinical ability as a striker just as much as an ability to finish.

However, the fact is the fans went crazy for Rashford for overcoming Martial and making LW his own - yet he failed at CF because he lacked alot of the things that were required in Ole's system and tactics.

Martial came in straight away from injury, succeeded in a role that Rashford had failed at (Greenwood as young as he maybe has even looked better on the right with his left foot than leading the line centrally even on the chances hes been given) from injury and delivered and got the best out of the most important players around him & considering we had literally no CAM in our first team - our chances were created solely by the ability of our front lines ability to create something itself (usually the stuff you see and say is just youtube skill video clips.

Rashford failed this season in a role and because he doesn't have the ability of Martial -his first touch, his passing, his ability to play with his back towards goals, his flicks and tricks, his quick decisions, his underrated short passing, his decent through balls etc - Martial can do all of that whilst deciding to come deep and get his ball to feet or try contest for the ball longer at least when he had runners making runs in behind them.

 

[Shimo]

If you look at the period immediately after Martial returned from injury and we started scoring again, Ole was quite praising of him in his interviews. He made it clear that Martial was highly rated, and not just the only option we had.

And remember, that was with Rashford leading the line the matches prior.

Ole I think rates him and thinks he can be a very good #9 for us but, he has repeatedly also mentioned how he keeps trying to get in Martial's head that he needs him in the box more and scoring more of the striker goals but, for some reason that part just isn't quite clicking for him. Also on some of Ighalo's play he's also commented about how that is sme proper CF play which we've been lacking. If he can add that aspect a bit more often to his game, he'll become quite the complete #9 for us.

 

[Stacks]

well pogba would have been if he stayed fit and fernandes if we signed him in the summer

Yeah I know, hence the «I know it’s not scientific evidence» caveat. It’s not for this season I’m talking about either, but bits from his whole time here, which makes it even less empiric. I bet both Pogba and Bruno would be up there if they had a whole season though.

Oh for sure. Not even a doubt. Even when Pogba ain't playing well he still creates. Bruno is just so attacking minded.

 

[KennyBurner]

I don't disagree really. My point is in regards to people that are suggesting Ole sees him as a star player or that he's definitely happy with him as our striker. We don't really know that until he's had some competition. Last season he tended to choose Rashford or Lukaku up there, this season Rashford has taken Martial's place on the wing and Martial has been the only option as a striker. So there's no basis yet to make such statements as we could very well upgrade in that position.

Or maybe Ole realized that Martial was just a better striker upfront than Rashford and Martial actually took rashfords place in the center. he also got rid of lukaku who as you say he tended to choose for the strikers role after he realized past 3 months wasnt good enough. Ole has also shown in his interviews that he is quite happy with martial leading the line no matter how much you like to discredit him. Getting in more strikers is only natural for a big club like United that competes in multiple competitions every year.

 

[Handré1990]

Oh for sure. Not even a doubt. Even when Pogba ain't playing well he still creates. Bruno is just so attacking minded.

Ah, man, I‘m desperate to see us line up with those two alongside Martial and Rashford!

 

[Mcking]

He's gone bald.

 

[Mcking]

 

[Berbaclass]

He looks like James Doakes

 

[Rolaholic]

Hope this is the start of his skinhead Rooney phase

 

[Berbaclass]

Hope this is the start of his skinhead Rooney phase

That second tackle

 

[Raven]

That second tackle

The first one was brilliant as well, absolute head case.

 

[Santoryo]

I think it's pretty apparent how much Ole rates Martial, I'm not sure where people are getting any other idea.

It's what they want to believe.

 

[Art Vandelay]

You're right that actions speak louder than words, especially in Ole's case.

Looking at his actions, he made space for Martial to be first-choice this season and played him over Rashford in that position ever since the beginning of preseason. Come the January window, he wasn't after a first-choice striker the same way he was after a first-choice AM. Until Rashford's injury, he'd wrap Martial in cotton wool once matches were won, to be sure he didn't get injured. Those actions tell me that at least for now, he does rate Martial highly.

What formed your opinion that he may not rate him that highly?

We went after Haaland in January.

I'm not saying he definitely doesn't rate him. I'm just saying it's a bit pre-mature for people to decide that Ole thinks he's a star player or that he's the CF Ole wants to build around when he's really had no competition and we had other areas to address first. Praising him doesn't mean much when he praises everyone.

Or maybe Ole realized that Martial was just a better striker upfront than Rashford and Martial actually took rashfords place in the center. he also got rid of lukaku who as you say he tended to choose for the strikers role after he realized past 3 months wasnt good enough. Ole has also shown in his interviews that he is quite happy with martial leading the line no matter how much you like to discredit him. Getting in more strikers is only natural for a big club like United that competes in multiple competitions every year.

Ah I'm discrediting am I? Nice way to ramp up the drama. I was having a rational conversation stating that I think it's pre-mature to say he's definitely a star in Ole's mind or that he's the CF he has in mind for the future and it becomes discrediting. You realise this is the kind of thing we've been talking about in here where you lot get weird with anything that's not licking his arse?

It's what they want to believe.

Who are "they"? It's me that's saying it, I've not said anything irrational or outlandish. I just provided a different point of view and it now it must be boiled down to a shadowy "they" working against him again? See my point above about this is why you lot don't get taken serious. You're responding to someone that describes themselves as Martial FC and who has said he's their favourite player. Surely if anyone wants to believe something in this scenario it's @Raven ? There's nothing wrong with him choosing to support his favourite player, but surely his vested interest in this means it's more likely that he's the one wanting to believe something? Which just happens to be the same thing you want to believe. It's not like any of us know, it's just opinions so I don't see why you'd attempt to dismiss it as something that someone just wants to believe. Especially when I've repeatedly stated I simply believe it's a possibility. I've not said anyones wrong, I just offered another scenario. My entire point was that people are getting a bit ahead of themselves and wanting to believe that he's the star man in Ole's mind when that could be a bit pre-mature. We're back to Martial FC behaving strangely.

 

[He'sRaldo]

We went after Haaland in January.

I'm not saying he definitely doesn't rate him. I'm just saying it's a bit pre-mature for people to decide that Ole thinks he's a star player or that he's the CF Ole wants to build around when he's really had no competition and we had other areas to address first. Praising him doesn't mean much when he praises everyone.

You think Haaland would have been first choice coming straight from the Austrian league to the PL?

You're right that he praises everyone, however his actions also show that he values Martial as one of our top players. Moreover, his competition is nonexistent because he outperformed them all in the role Ole wants for his CF. None of Rashford, Lukaku, Greenwood, or Ighalo can perform the way Martial does in that role, hence him being clear first choice.

That said, there's still more to add to his game, so if we do go out and buy an already world-class complete CF (which I highly doubt will happen), then I can understand your point of him maybe not being clear first-choice in Ole's eyes.

 

[Art Vandelay]

You think Haaland would have been first choice coming straight from the Austrian league to the PL?

You're right that he praises everyone, however his actions also show that he values Martial as one of our top players. His competition is nonexistent because he outperformed them all in the role Ole wants for his CF. None of Rashford, Lukaku, Greenwood, or Ighalo can play the way Martial does in that role.

Yeah I think he would be first choice. He's an unbelievable talent and would have taken over the starting role sooner or later.

You could be right or he could have had no competition because we failed to land the right target and are simply waiting until we can land them. Until Ole has had more time to rebuild we simply don't know. So, for me, saying he's definitely a star man is jumping the gun when we've seen Ole having to use the resources he currently has all season. I'm not comparing him to Periera and Lingard, I'm just saying they played because we had no one else. Dan James is over played because we have no one else. Martial being our main striker might simply be because we have no one else and Ole could prefer a more traditional CF which is why Rashford and Lukaku were tried there before Martial got playing. Some of his comments regarding CF play can suggest he'd prefer a more traditional one. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, I'm just saying we don't know if he's the long term striker yet or if Ole is just having to make do like in other positions. We've barely had everyone fit for long enough to know what his ideal set up is, especially with Bruno now changing the dynamic again. I just don't think there's enough evidence to definitely say that Ole thinks he is the long term answer up front or that he considers him our star man. He's even talked up Sanchez coming back to be a big player for us...

 

[He'sRaldo]

Yeah I think he would be first choice. He's an unbelievable talent and would have taken over the starting role sooner or later.

Haaland with his current skill set most likely wouldn't have been first-choice, especially behind our midfield. Ole needs attackers who can create chances for themselves, which is not what Haaland excels at. Even if he started first choice (which is doubtful in and of itself), he'd have most likely been overtaken by Martial eventually. Maybe in the future he would have taken over a starting role, but like I said Ole didn't pursue a ready-made first-choice striker in the window; current Haaland wouldn't be that.

You could be right or he could have had no competition because we failed to land the right target and are simply waiting until we can land them. Until Ole has had more time to rebuild we simply don't know. So, for me, saying he's definitely a star man is jumping the gun when we've seen Ole having to use the resources he currently has all season. I'm not comparing him to Periera and Lingard, I'm just saying they played because we had no one else. Dan James is over played because we have no one else. Martial being our main striker might simply be because we have no one else and Ole could prefer a more traditional CF which is why Rashford and Lukaku were tried there before Martial got playing. Some of his comments regarding CF play can suggest he'd prefer a more traditional one. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, I'm just saying we don't know if he's the long term striker yet or if Ole is just having to make do like in other positions. We've barely had everyone fit for long enough to know what his ideal set up is, especially with Bruno now changing the dynamic again. I just don't think there's enough evidence to definitely say that Ole thinks he is the long term answer up front or that he considers him our star man. He's even talked up Sanchez coming back to be a big player for us...

I understand your reasoning but I think it's faulty, because you could use the same logic for every single member of the squad, saying that we don't have enough, or good enough options hence they're playing there. However, there are certain players who Ole obviously values regardless of the truth of that statement. Martial is obviously seen by Ole as one of our key players, alongside a few others like Maguire and Rashford.

Whether or not he'll value them the same way long term is neither here nor there, since no one can know what will happen. But from what we've seen thus far, I think Ole thinks Martial is one of our key players from this past campaign, but also expects more from him with regards to sharpening up his weaknesses. Where that leads us in the future, who knows?

 

[Art Vandelay]

Haaland with his current skill set most likely wouldn't have been first-choice, especially behind our midfield. Ole needs attackers who can create chances for themselves, which is not what Haaland excels at. Even if he started first choice (which is doubtful in and of itself), he'd have most likely been overtaken by Martial eventually. Maybe in the future he would have taken over a starting role, but like I said Ole didn't pursue a ready-made first-choice striker in the window; current Haaland wouldn't be that.




I understand your reasoning but I think it's faulty, because you could use the same logic for every single member of the squad, saying that we don't have enough, or good enough options hence they're playing there. However, there are certain players who Ole obviously values regardless of the truth of that statement. Martial is obviously seen by Ole as one of our key players, alongside a few others like Maguire and Rashford.

Whether or not he'll value them the same way long term is neither here nor there, since no one can know what will happen. But from what we've seen thus far, I think Ole thinks Martial is one of our key players from this past campaign, but also expects more from him with regards to sharpening up his weaknesses. Where that leads us in the future, who knows?

He wouldn't have had to create chances for himself though. We created the kind of chances that a more traditional striker would have been looking for. Those low drilled crosses which annoy people when no one makes the run for them are there for a more traditional striker and we've seen with Ighalo that his CF play helps create space for the players behind him by making those runs which are not Martial's strong point. They were the kind of chances someone like Haaland could have taken advantage of. Things have changed with Bruno and we now have other ways to create alongside those chances. Which again would feed someone like Haaland as much as it does Martial.

You could use that logic for every member of the squad, which is part of my point. We're overseeing wholesale changes, it's not feasible to get all of the changes in one or two windows. So I'm reluctant to buy into people claiming Ole views anyone bar De Gea, Rashford, formerly Pogba and the players he himself has signed as star men. There's an awful lot of players he is having to make do with and he talks everyone up. Being one of the few attacking options we have doesn't necessarily make you a star player. I think people are getting ahead of themselves declaring him a star man while in the middle of a rebuild when we don't know where Ole is going with it.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm not referring to goals though - Rashford is always on his toes, his movement is better, he's actually weaker in dribbling in my opinion to Martial, but he gets at players far more.

Of course you're not referring to goals when it's apparent that his end product took a nosedive. His movement is better and technical ability is lesser. I'm not sure what your actual point is. The obvious one that two good players have different qualified? The point is that that up until last season Rashfords development curve looked dodgy as well. No way to beat around the bush on this one. This season both have excelled and I'm grateful for that.

People spend far too much time knit picking on them and comparing them obsessively as is apparent front this and other discussions.

Is this a joke? Did you compare me referencing stretches of inconsistency with Martial to an isolated game of Wayne Fecking Rooney? Jesus this is worse than you trying to suggest I only compared Martial to Augero earlier.

No, the only thing that's a joke here is your inability to grasp logic. Players don't get defined merely by their lesser games. Martial is a good footballer despite the odd average game or two, just like Rashford and co. And your dislike won't change facts.

Im really not - Martial has too many mediocre games for my liking. I don't think he's a mediocre player but I'm not surprised some people are labelling him as such with some performances.


I've seen every game of his just like you have. He's good for a couple, then missing, then good for a couple, then missing. And he's been like that every year for us with a new excuse spun every time. The only consistency is his inconsistent performances.

So he's not a mediocre player then. And the post I called out was incorrect. Glad we've cleared that up at least given it bloody obvious and didn't need you to continuously go on about how it wasn't terrible (despite you disagreeing with it). It's a fact that he's not mediocre or bang average.

The biggest consistency here seems to be people who fail to fail to judge players appropriately. Martial isn't as inconsistent as this specific herd claim. He's a very good footballer who tends to play well for us and is among our better players. We, however, are generally an inconsistent and disjoint side and that tends to make it more difficult for players to hit 8/10 everygame especially the forwards given how poor the service is. Is Martial a top player? Not yet for me. He's definitely very good one but whether be can take that step up to one of the best/top class one is up to him to show. But he certainly isn't this caricature people paint him as - oscillating between good and rubbish all the time.

Jiminez is a superior CF to Martial, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here?

The obvious one that Jiminez really isn't all that. There's nothing between them despite Jiminez being older and playing his position since forever. Would not swap the two. Martial has done very well in his first year as a CF and can play at LW just as well.

 

[Yagami]

He looks like James Doakes

That haircut was definitely a "surprise, motherf*cker"

As for that Rooney gif @Rolaholic posted, the full game of that is on YouTube. One of the very, very rare times Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Berbatov all played together. Only for like 20 or so minutes, if I recall.

In those 20 mintues, we were carving them open at will with all 4 interchanging, which was brilliant to watch, but that's also the period where they scored 2 goals themselves after an early opener, so it did leave us open despite the great attacking display. That's why Rooney was so aggressive in the gif.

 

[He'sRaldo]

He wouldn't have had to create chances for himself though. We created the kind of chances that a more traditional striker would have been looking for. Those low drilled crosses which annoy people when no one makes the run for them are there for a more traditional striker and we've seen with Ighalo that his CF play helps create space for the players behind him by making those runs which are not Martial's strong point. They were the kind of chances someone like Haaland could have taken advantage of. Things have changed with Bruno and we now have other ways to create alongside those chances. Which again would feed someone like Haaland as much as it does Martial.

IIRC, had we gotten Haaland we'd have had to forfeit Bruno, so we'd still be starved of chances in the final 3rd. In addition to this, you have to remember that usually with Pereira or Lingard playing, we'd need Martial to feed the ball to those who can make a cut-back, James especially.

In essence, the whole dynamic would be shifted if Haaland came in, and I can't predict exactly how it would have gone.

You could use that logic for every member of the squad, which is part of my point. We're overseeing wholesale changes, it's not feasible to get all of the changes in one or two windows. So I'm reluctant to buy into people claiming Ole views anyone bar De Gea, Rashford, formerly Pogba and the players he himself has signed as star men. There's an awful lot of players he is having to make do with and he talks everyone up. Being one of the few attacking options we have doesn't necessarily make you a star player. I think people are getting ahead of themselves declaring him a star man while in the middle of a rebuild when we don't know where Ole is going with it.

I understand what you're saying about everyone being under scrutiny for the long term, but you demonstrated with your list that you agree there is a group of players who Ole clearly rates even long term. You made exceptions for those players, but to my mind, there's little difference in their treatment and Martial's. And Ole didn't sign those players so theoretically they should be as expendable as the rest. Performance-wise as well, nothing separating them.

So what's the difference between Rashford, De Gea, and Pogba, and Martial, that leads you to believe he's not part of the list?

 

[Trex]

Am a big Martial fan but I think the players who are untouchable in the eyes of Ole would be Rashford,Pogba(if he wants to stay),Fernandes,Wan bissaka,Maguire.Players like Shaw and Martial and Lindelof,Fred seems to highly rated within the club,Mourinho could'nt touch them(Martial and shaw),and Ole has to work with them,I think Martial biggest threat is already at the club that is Mason Greenwood,most likely he would buy Ighalo on a permanent basis,which i think is more than enough for now,Right wing has to be priority