Not sure if it's worth the debate but right now Martial, Rashford, Bruno, Pogba are all equally important, even Greenwood. I won't feel confident if even one of them isnt playing.
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 23
- Assists
- 8
- Yellow cards
- 1
- Status
His game has improved because of the quality of player added not because of any leadership Bruno is providing. You guys are just making conjectures.
Football fans and the persistent need to see things beyond how they are.
Its as if there has to be an explanation for everything. Form and quality can change midway through a season, its not mystical.
Martial and Rashford have carried the team for most of the season before Bruno's arrival and have been our best players in the last three games despite everybody's drop in quality.
Zlatan had no effect, in fact his coming derailed Tony's progress as a player. What leadership? I was never a fan of his and was wasteful in attack to boot.
Agreed, if anything it's obvious to see how we struggle more when any one of Fernandes, Pogba, Martial, Rashford or Matic are out of form. I do believe that Pogba and Fernandes are the most talented players in the team but when it comes to our performances the five aforementioned players pull their own weights in almost all circumstances, the difference with the first part of the season is that Matic, Pogba and Fernandes are available.
Completely forgot he's only 24 years old. What a player!
It feels weird because he and Rashford have been in the team for like 5/6 years now so we expect them to be older.
At this point at 24 he'd be starring for somebody like Lyon or Dortmund and we'd be eyeing him up for a £90m move this summer. I think many teams will be watching him in awe. I really hope he can take this form into the Europa league and destroy some teams so his reputation goes up like it deserves.
Bruno can have bad games but the players up front know that he is looking for their runs and also creating chances for them even though he is having a bad game. So they will keep making those runs.
Just before Martial scored he got upset with Rashford for not passing it to him on the left. Rashford made the decision to pass it to Bruno. In hindsight it was the right decision. As soon as Martial saw that he moved inside and because he moved inside was why he got the opportunity to score.
Just before Martial scored he got upset with Rashford for not passing it to him on the left. Rashford made the decision to pass it to Bruno. In hindsight it was the right decision. As soon as Martial saw that he moved inside and because he moved inside was why he got the opportunity to score.
Mason Greenwood's emergence and Marcus Rashford's new found maturity/public hero status are the reasons for Martial's improvement in recent weeks. It's the healthy competition between the three of them that's lit a fire under Martial's arse.
Martial's always had the innate talent. The issue has been his effort and motivation on the pitch. Now he has a moving target to beat for 90 minutes of every match, it's easier for him to focus on making the most of the time he has. You could see proof of it that time he was subbed. He's never had that kind of reaction to being taken off before in his career.
I'm sure we've all been in similar situations at school, or at work, or maybe in our personal lives. We've coasted on our raw talent for years, and then some hotshot come along and starts hogging the limelight for himself. It makes us want to beat him even more so we double down like never before.
The opposite is also true to an extent. Though Rashford's internal motivation has always been strong, the external competition from Martial will give him that extra little push. Greenwood is also young enough to be moulded by this, hopefully. It needs to become their new normal if they're going to fulfil their potential.
I said in an earlier post that it looks like Martial is 'playing angry'. It's his pride that he's fighting for. And Manchester United are benefiting.
Martial's always had the innate talent. The issue has been his effort and motivation on the pitch. Now he has a moving target to beat for 90 minutes of every match, it's easier for him to focus on making the most of the time he has. You could see proof of it that time he was subbed. He's never had that kind of reaction to being taken off before in his career.
I'm sure we've all been in similar situations at school, or at work, or maybe in our personal lives. We've coasted on our raw talent for years, and then some hotshot come along and starts hogging the limelight for himself. It makes us want to beat him even more so we double down like never before.
The opposite is also true to an extent. Though Rashford's internal motivation has always been strong, the external competition from Martial will give him that extra little push. Greenwood is also young enough to be moulded by this, hopefully. It needs to become their new normal if they're going to fulfil their potential.
I said in an earlier post that it looks like Martial is 'playing angry'. It's his pride that he's fighting for. And Manchester United are benefiting.
Martial was already playing well before Bruno's arrival. Not sure why people forget that. The most important partner for martial is actually rashford.
I'm not doing that at all. Just stating what type of character he is. He doesn't have an inherent in built confidence that means he will perform to his best level no matter what. He's a confidence player who has a tendency to drop his head when he's not having a good game and disappear from games.
Having someone like Bruno that's constantly on his arse, ensuring he keeps going, encouraging him to keep his head up, working hard, pressurising defenders and running in behind is really good for his game. The best way to overcome bad form or a loss of confidence is hard work.
He's been outstanding since lockdown but the 2 things that have been most encouraging were bullying Mings for Greenwood's goal at Villa Park and burning Sakho to keep the ball in and win a corner at Palace.
It has for sure. But his game (and his consistency) has improved because he's more committed and working harder. Why is he doing that now when he wasn't before?
I'm not questioning his character and am delighted that he's doing it now. It's a credit to him that he's improving his consistency and moving from promise and ability to a player that can be relied on to perform.
Watching the United attack now and the movement of the forwards and compare that to pre Bruno, it's like chalk and cheese.
I love Martial as a player. It's clear as day the talent he has and any suggestions of selling him were utterly stupid. But he's been inconsistent throughout his time at United and pretending "he's always played like this, but Mourinho . . . . ." is complete revisionism.
He completely destroyed vvd that day didn't he? That season we saw so much talent, so much potential. Glad that he has the chance to show us what he is capable of again.
A whole lot of assumptions in this post. Isn’t it more likely that he’s just getting more comfortable as a front man? His form before lockdown was very good too.
It seems to be the in thing to question Martial’s motivation but it wasn’t a problem for him when he was keeping Mourinho in a job last season, or when he won a starting spot over Rashford only for Mourinho to bench them both when we bought Sánchez.
Putting his recent form down to simply being more motivated is pretty lazy and completely ignores the fact that he has a much stronger team around him.
You said and I quote "massive revisionism" which is a ridiculous OTT statement. He was still working hard, making runs and working the back line. There isn't exactly a huge difference between the 17/18 season to what he is doing with Ole, simply that he is actually being found more as we've better and more creative outlets than just Pogba.
Obviously missed the part where I pointed out he had a great debut season also, yes he dipped in his 2nd season due to injuries and personal issues off the pitch but bounced back and again performed for Jose only to be fecked over by him for months on end and ultimately down grade him for... Sanchez. What a tactical genius we had in Jose.
Does the truth hurt in what I said?
Pretty sure Martial did thrive, which was the point I was making and you didn't seem to take it up? Didn't Jose label the dressing room "a cancer" at this point? Wasn't Martial still delivering in terms of goal involvement with minimal playing time?
What kind of idiot manager drops a player in that kind of form for an ageing, injury prone and past his best player? In turn it destroys his chances of getting into the national side and robbing him of his winners medal.
There isn't a single lie in my sentiments.
Already delivered in that "cancerous" culture.
Color me shocked he improves further with added creative outlets around him, same goes for Rashford and Greenwood. We've been an unbalanced and one dimensional (Pogba) side for years. Now we've a threat across the park with Rashford on the left, Martial through the middle and Greenwood on the right with support from Bruno & Pogba.
It's the sum of its parts and all players are benefiting from it.
We almost ruined him haven't we. His hold up play there looks excellent. This season his had to relearn how play as a 9 fortunately he has done so well.
What are you on about? Does the truth hurt? Who? Me? Why would it hurt?
I'm delighted that Mourinho has left and am in no way supporting anything he did in his time at the club.
He used Martial terribly and Ole has embarrassed him by how much he has got out of Martial and Rashford since he joined.
I now realise that the extent of your argument is "Martial good, Jose bad". It shows a real lack of perspective and maturity to look at it in such black and white terms.
Martial didn't perform well because he didn't get on with the manager. Fine. I agree with you and it's even understandable. But then you can't pretend he's a leader. No matter what Jose did or didn't do, Martial is responsible for his own performances.
You labelled it a diatribe, why bother if it doesn't bother you and its factual.
No, that isn't the extent of the argument but if you apply logic Jose was his manager for the majority of his time here. Not much else to it otherwise.
It's just a lack of tactical understanding. Playing a whole season with Daneil James as a RW who cant cut in, who cant interchange positions with Rashford or Martial and most of the time only has the ability to cross in to the box isnt going to get the best out of a striker like Martial who simply isnt that type of a striker -he's more supportive and capable of build up play than he is instinctively predatory in the box; whilst remaining clinical in the right system.
How good Martial was in the right system could be seen almost 6 months ago in the game vs Newcastle where we won 4-1.
It was the first time I saw Martial using his ability of interlinking passes, hold up play and goal scoring ability - because he had proper forwards playing very narrow and close to him it just made him better than having Daniel James out wide crossing balls in to no one in the box.
In the same game Wan Bissaka got forward and crossed to Rashford to score - something AWB does not have the ability to do when Daniel James is hogging the touchline as we see now.
That game was one of the earliest games we saw Martial, Rashford and Greenwood starting a match together and it was beautiful because it was the right system but it was also the game where Ole decided to bring Pogba back early from injury and soon as he came we looked like a team that just had too much quality over the pitch.
Unfortunately, Pogba still had an injury after than introduction and Rashford came down with his back injury so Ole had to revert to using players like Daniel James that doesn't get the best out of Martial.
It's got nothing to do with competition making a flame up Martial's arse - it's just that we have a great quality of players capable of playing great in a right system that is just too hot to handle - as seen nearly 6 month ago.
I think you are oversimplifying. At least that's how it sounds - that Martial has a leader type mentality and has always been consistent for his age, and that all fluctuations of form and performance (if any) are due to injury and Mourinho.
It doesn't rhyme with what I've seen, and read, since he scored that fabulous debut goal against Liverpool. I remember seeing a great talent with unreal ball control and great explosivity in his muscles, who flourished when given a fairly straight forward role as a winger in a LVG team. I remember he played within himself for France while ie the less talented Kingsley Coman excelled. I remeber thinking, it's not strange, youth looks different with different players.
I remember being frustrated with his choices when in central areas of the field, and that if he was not set up right by his teammates, he would disappear from games more than usual. I remember thinking his abilities might be striker type, and being disappointed when he got the chance and showed no instinct for the type of proactive movement natural strikers show in abundance.
I remember him having a brilliant spell for Mourinho when we played counterattacking with Lukaku and won every game 4-1. I remember when Mourinho tried him at RW and centrally, he looked very inefficient, as if he didn,t know what to do. By the time we got Sanchez, he was still doing well, but was also often frustrating. Particularly when paired with Shaw, as they would just stand around waiting the both of them. I remember thinking they didn't suit Mourinho, and thought it was both their fault and Mourinho's. Mou has always had issues with some kinds of mentality, and will throw you under the bus if you show evidence of that. He is a grandiose asshole who can develop into paranoid grandeur, and his tactical strategies have gone from brilliant and boring to quite ok, and boring due to others catching up, but he is not a madman. I assumed Martial, as Shaw, showed evidence of those issues, where most others didn't. Mou's hang ups are well known: He demands warrior mentality, hunger for perfection, and players with ability to think and solve football tactics for themselves. He will put his arm around a player with low confidence, but not if he's weak on those traits. Martial axed for Sanchez and Rashford, in spite of bigger talent and equal output, told.me it was likely Mou saw the same things I saw: Mental passivity, slowness in tactical learning, and the kind of low confidence that doesn't look like despair to improve outwardly, but rather like a yearning to go home and be left alone.
I don't think it a coincidence how almost every coach and manager Martial has had, has pointed to issues with his mentality, even Solskjær. I don't buy that he's lazy or selfish or divaish for a second, so I think it's a confidence thing.
What I see thia year, is a Martial making more and more attempted runs, having more conversations with co players about runs or lack of runs during games, and is showing up ever more often in dangerous position, in movement. I hear Solskjær lauding him for the hard work he has done with movement, timing and fi ding the right spaces.
So I think it is not simply a matter of playing with Pogba, Rashford and Bruno who are able to find a pass, but also a question of Ole finding the right way to get Martial working with the right things to work at, and him actually improving as a result. To me, Rashford is a player who has improved all the time, always trying new things, always looking for ways to expand his game, like Christiano was. Martial looks to me more like a Nani in that regard. I,m quite sure that a player with Martial,s technical and physical talent, and Rashford's mental talent, would be close to Cristiano's level at the age of 24. That's wishful thinking. I'm very happy to have them.playing alongside each other, even if it's been a frustrating ride at times.
Apologies if it is sounding simplistic, most things in football generally aren't that binary. You're right there are many variables to consider.
He was quite injury prone up to quite recently, I mean he was out for two months even this year from Aug to Oct and missed 5 league games at least over that period of time. Once he started getting regular mins and manager putting belief and confidence in him he's repaid it tenfold.
Sometimes club form / issues transfer to the national stage, I recall Deschamps putting out sound bites about being concerned with what was going on at United and his lack of mins, but it was Jose's choice and if Martial wasn't playing he couldn't pick him, hence I firmly believe Jose cost him a spot in 2018.
Like you say he was routinely messed around by Jose. He played CF, LW & RW for him and if poor decision make was the fall out from that then I'm not overly surprised.
What didn't falter though was his ability to create and score goals, his numbers were still superb for someone who was essentially a bit part player under Jose.
Agree that he is a confidence player, he needs the arm put around him and nothing wrong with that. Different actions for different players to get results from them.
I don't think it is either.
I think with CM pairing of Pogba & Bruno it does give us an added creative outlet and not simply just having 2 creative CM's, but they offer different range of passing as well and from different areas of the pitch. Bruno obviously being further up the field in the final third and Pogba being deeper and picking out longer range passes more often for runners in behind.
More importantly for the first time... since probably the days of Becks & Giggs or Nani & Ronaldo have we seen two legitimate wide attacking threats in Rashford and Greenwood.
We have attacking threat across the park with various range of passing and methods on how to attack. We can counter with pace or pick teams apart with quick passing and link up play.
And yes as you point out, Martial is also adapting well to the CF role showing ability with fantastic control / first touch (always had it), ability to battle and hold off centre halves with nice range of passing and link up play with that explosive burst of pace and power.
Essentially we are becoming the sum of our parts and show far more versatility with 5 different outlets of creativity and attack in Pogba, Bruno, Mason, Martial & Rashford.
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No.
Some valid points, but if Rashford truly has improved all the time and has some kind of Cristiano mentality then why did he also stagnate under Mourinho and get outcasted upon the arrival of Alexis? How about Pogba, surely a player who has won all that he's won at an individual and team basis and was a leader in a team that won the World Cup doesn't lack the mentality needed?
I'm not saying Martial is faultless, nor that has a Cristiano mentality, but Mourinho's spell at United has tainted Martial's image incredibly. Let's take a look at his 3 full seasons as a professional footballer when Mourinho wasn't his coach for some perspective.
14/15 as an 18 year old was a key player for Monaco and helped take them on a run in the Champions League where they defeated Arsenal - this season subsequently resulted in him earning a big money move to United and winning the Golden Boy award as the best teenager in Europe.
15/16 he moves from France to the biggest club in England at the age of 19 whilst barely speaking a word of English and manages to score 17 goals and assist 9 others in a hugely dysfunctional LVG side where he is often swapped between ST and LW due to Depay's struggles. His last minute goal sends us to the FA Cup final which we ultimately win (our first trophy since SAF). His season for us as a 19 year old is more impressive than Ronaldo or Rooney at the same age.
Finally 19/20 - he's given a chance to play upfront for us permanently under Ole, having to relearn the position etc. He currently has 22 goals and 8 assists in a season where he himself was out for 2 months, Rashford was out for 2 months, Pogba played 5 games until the restart and Bruno only joined in February. He has been the best striker for us since RVP having been supported by Pereira and James for the vast majority of it. Since our full team ahs come together he has become one of the leaders of the team and has arguably been our outright best player since the restart with 6 goals and 3 assists in the 8 games we've had since returning. He has the most goals for us in the league since RVP (with 0 penalties) and looks like he's only getting better.
Does this appear to be a player who suffers from significant mentality issues? Mourinho's awful man management defintiely played a part in stunting his development. He has thrived under Ranieri, LVG, Solskjaer. I agree with you that he's a confidence player (many coaches and ex players have mentioned this) but he's never been one to sulk, not play for the team, or go through a terrible rut in terms of his form. The vast majority of young players aren't mentality monsters, that's the reality of football. Not everybody is a Cristiano or Mbappe, we have to understand that these young players are ultimately 18-22 year olds growing in to adulthood, not just robots on a football pitch. De Bruyne and Salah were both targetted by Mourinho and look at them now, to understate how poorly Mourinho managed him is unfair - how he handled Rashford and in particular Martial was hugely detrimental to the club. Credit to the players and the new coaching staff for resurrecting their careers before it was too late.
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Saying he doesn't have a strong will to perform in a bad environment is indeed questioning his character, and it becomes ridiculous when you analyse his time in our worst period, when mourinho tried everything to marginalize him but he still maintained one of the best minutes per goal ratio in the squad. The Jose period for me proved conclusively that Martial has an elite mentality.
Man Utd 1:3 Chelsea
I didn't know we had so many sports psychologists in here, talking about Martial's mentality.
Loads of nonsense.
Loads of nonsense.
Strangely he's not sharp today. Odd.
Fatigue?
Did well to win the penalty. Sometimes when top good player is off in a game, they can still make one good crucial play.
Fatigue?
Did well to win the penalty. Sometimes when top good player is off in a game, they can still make one good crucial play.
It was just that kind of game, but he did win a penalty and could have had a second one with the Zouma clip for the ball in the air but I'm not an expert on the rules or anything.
It didn't bother me in the slightest. I labelled it a diatribe because that's what it was.
I didn't say he doesn't have a strong will to perform in a bad environment. I said he doesn't perform well in a bad environment and that he lacks leadership qualities.
Are you expecting him to be a future United and France captain?
I agree on that first one. The VAR spent no time reviewing and it may have been just outside the box. But it was very close and a clear foul.
0-0 at the time too. Would have been a very different game if that had been given.
Are only captains able to perform well in a bad environment and have leadership qualities?
Hahah what a bs
I think the Zouma incident was outside the penalty area anyway.
As this is a Martial thread and not a Mourinho one (doesn’t it feel great that we no longer need to discuss Mourinho if we don’t want to!? Yay! Rejoice!), and I responded to a discussion about Martials responsibility for his own development, I’ll stick to that.
To me, part of the frustration with Tony is exactly that he appeared as a talent from the Roon/Ron-shelf, as you say, more efficient than them in terms of goal involvements at the same age, and a technical/physical package that looked better than did Rashford. I think Rashford has developed more in four years than Martial has in six, at the same club, with mainly the same coaches, in much the same roles.
Rashford has often been as frustrating, but more often by trying too much, whereas Martial often was frustrating by not trying enough. I don’t agree with you that LVGs was a dysfunctional team in a way that made Martial shine in spite of it - LVGs was awell organized team with clear tasks and verbatim instruction. Martial were very explicitly taught his tasks, and could understand and perform them, and was well suited to the tasks. He was set up repeatedly with one plater to beat to get into the box. LVGs problems was that he depended on players to beat a man who couldn’t (Januzaj, Mata), and to play quick possesion but who couldn’t (Fellaini, the list goes on), and who could take minute instructions but wouldn’t (eg Van Persie). Martial and LVG however were a very good match (as was Rashford).
Some of what José did to Martial was horrendous, tes, despicable, and Martial deserves credit (also to his mentality!) that he after a while opted to fight his way back. I would still press the issue that Martial first disappointed Mourinho, and in the ‘benign Mou/Honeymou period’. Mourinho expect players to be proactive and find their own solutions, and to be aggressive in defending. Martial was struggling visibly with both, and many pointed this out. It was all the more frustrating as the team was set up in a way that should make a player with Martials capabilities able to thrive (like Robben did under Mou). Martial wasn’t bad for his age, butyou could see he was set up to succeed and really struggled to get basic things going. He seemed like he just couldn’t learn stuff that Rashford, Lingard and Lukaku could get. While Mikhitaryan crazily was told not to play the way his abilities needed, Martial should have been a good fit for what he was told to do. It seems Mou soured definitively on him during autumn before we got Sanchez, and while everyone thought Sanchez was brought for the RW, it turned out that the portugueze wasn’t satisfied with what the Martial (21) and Rashford (19) was giving him. Thank The Red Devils he’s gone, but I think it was evident then and has been under Solskjær that, whereas Rashford, as Bruno, and to a great extent Pogba and Maguire, is a leader type, a proactive type, Martial just is a very different personality.
This has delayed his development IMO as much as Mourinho, and as Mou is history for Martial, it’s these deficiencies he should take responsibility for and adress in order to become much more than a 22 goals a season player, which I hope he has the capacity to become. (Looks that way this summer!).
Our midfielders have to understand that sometimes they just need to get the ball to him. Doesn't need to be a great pass, just get the ball to him. At this point he's good enough to make things happen from thin air.
Hope he gets to 20 league goals this season despite there being just 2 games left. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired hearing everyone on TV spew the same nonsense about us needed a 20 goal a season striker.
Hope he gets to 20 league goals this season despite there being just 2 games left. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired hearing everyone on TV spew the same nonsense about us needed a 20 goal a season striker.
If he was taking penalties like the likes of Vardy, Salah and Aubameyang do, he'd be in the driving seat for the Golden boot. That is what everyone just seems to ignore.
True, who's score more goals than him in open play? Mind you our has also been dysfunctional most of the time and he was injured for a period. We're fine upfront.
Martial and a few other strikers around right now are proof that you don't need an orthodox CF anymore. The game has changed.
We look at our best when our forward 3 (Rashford, Martial, Greenwood) are constantly moving and interchanging as the opponents don't know where they are going.
We look at our best when our forward 3 (Rashford, Martial, Greenwood) are constantly moving and interchanging as the opponents don't know where they are going.
Ings 21
Aubameyang 19
Vardy 19
Martial 17
I'm talking more about general perception though, so not going to go deep into stats. But penalties are still counted as goals for strikers and we've won far more penalties than the average team. If Martial was taking them for us like other teams main strikers tend to do, historically and currently, no one would be chatting bullshit about 20-goal strikers.
I've seen him do this for years, stand next to a defender asking for a cheeky ball through the lines only to be ignored. Everyone of us knows that he has the ability to take the ball and turn but for whatever reason the ball very rarely comes.
I would have happily traded him for Haaland a few months ago (perhaps still would) but he’s really impressed me how he’s starting to step it up. Do you think the whole number 9 thing was a mental block for him? Seemed to go off the boil when he lost the number, though we also had the soul suckers manage us too
He is better than Halaand, why would you want to do that? He has far more attributes than him. The only thing going for the child giant is age and finishing.
finishing is one of the primary necessary attributes of a striker. What about heading, positionig, anticipation, movement, aerial dominance etc. There are so many attributes to being a forward to claim one has far more than the other. Fact is Haaland has 44 goals and 10 assists in 40 games. This includes 10 in the champions league (more than Martial entire 32 champions league game total) and German Bundesliga. Every level he bangs in ridiculous rate of Goals, almost like Cristiano. I wouldn't be so quick to claim "such and such is better". Haaland is legit. He'll end up at Bayern, Juve or City and be leading scorer.
would not swap them though
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