[DdeGoat]

It obvious that he is a supremely talented player. We know that he has talent and skills to be the very best. That is why I find his performances frustrating at times. It always feels like he could do more. I just want him to bamboozle the opposition and thrill the fans with more regularity. I know he can do it.

May be it's his age and he would start doing that as he matures more. I used to find the same with Pogba, until he has started putting in regular top class performances this season. But for now, Martial leaves so much more to be desired.

 

[Adisa]

As for yesterday, manager said he wasn't fully fit.
Don't know what role that played in a sluggish first half.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

The definition of an assist has never changed. They weren’t always tracked but, since they were, they’ve always meant the same thing.

We've had many a yarn about this at the pub. The actual definition has changed, and been applied differently as football has evolved.

It's different in different countries too and has been changed in England and Global tournaments plenty of times too.

It used to be a subjective metric with a measure of common sense applied. It was a turn of phrase rather than an absolute.

It's now pretty much "Who touched it second to last".

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We've had many a yarn about this at the pub. The actual definition has changed, and been applied differently as football has evolved.

It's different in different countries too and has been changed in England and Global tournaments plenty of times too.

It used to be a subjective metric with a measure of common sense applied. It was a turn of phrase rather than an absolute.

It's now pretty much "Who touched it second to last".

It’s a statistic. It’s always been absolute. Unless you’ve got any evidence to the contrary?

 

[meamth]

Ability? Absolutely no question about that, he got it to be one of the world's best.
Attitude? He is showing more of that this season, smiled more and hopefully it's coming together for him to get that last elevation to top tier talent.

 

[dogwithabone]

Martial is so close to becoming a genuinely great footballer rather than a very good one. Still makes too many wrong decisions but that will improve over the next year or two.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Nev and Carragher were intresting last night. I do sort of agree with that give an extra 5% thing. Always feel like Martial is sort of holding something back, although the amount of times he makes the run and the ball never finds him is quite shocking, especially when it’s the easy option. He does actually do the same to Shaw tho and often ignores his run when it’s the best option.
Gary and Cara also mentioned his position is under threat but honestly I would have thought Mata was the one under threat but after last nights performance I would say he is safe. Lingard was meh last night.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

It’s a statistic. It’s always been absolute. Unless you’ve got any evidence to the contrary?

I'll try and find some proper links when I'm online properly. I had a quick look but it took us ages a few years back to find anything factual.

But for now;

Do all countries count it as an assist for Player A if;

- Player A wins a penalty and Player B scores it?
- Player A shoots, the keeper saves it and Player B scores?
- Player A passes to Player B in his own penalty box, Player B beats 10 men and scores at the other end?
- Player A wins a corner and Player B curls it straight in?
- Player A passes one yard to Player C who backheels it to Player B who scores?

Some countries count some of those as assists and not others. An 'assist' would often be highlighted as being such if a player genuinely assisted a goal.

It's an Americanised bastardised stat nowadays.

 

[Zoo]

I thought he started the game tentatively perhaps because he was a doubt for the game because due to a knock. He snapped out of it after his goal.

 

[Arka_BleedingRed]

Doesn't make runs, doesn't affect games, doesn't track back etc. etc. It seems that the Martial protesters keep harping over the same things again and again without even bothering to watch the matches. Yesterday, Anthony made quite a few runs where the ball wasn't passed to him, tracked back quite well when required, pressed well and was quite involved in most of our plays in general.

Yes, he isn't the finished article and needs improvement, which he is definitely going to make, but the constant diminishing of his qualities while making exaggerated statements about his weaknesses seems to have become a bit of a trend here.

 

[Irish Jet]

Doesn't make runs, doesn't affect games, doesn't track back etc. etc. It seems that the Martial protesters keep harping over the same things again and again without even bothering to watch the matches. Yesterday, Anthony made quite a few runs where the ball wasn't passed to him, tracked back quite well when required, pressed well and was quite involved in most of our plays in general.

Yes, he isn't the finished article and needs improvement, which is definitely going to make, but the constantly diminishing of his qualities while making exaggerated statements about his weaknesses seems to have become a bit of a trend here.

Nah. A fake assist. A lucky goal.

Why trust your lying eyes over astute observations from the Caf's finest?

 

[kouroux]

10/10, not fecking bad at all I'd say. Not many players in Europe have those stats

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'll try and find some proper links when I'm online properly. I had a quick look but it took us ages a few years back to find anything factual.

But for now;

Do all countries count it as an assist for Player A if;

- Player A wins a penalty and Player B scores it?
- Player A shoots, the keeper saves it and Player B scores?
- Player A passes to Player B in his own penalty box, Player B beats 10 men and scores at the other end?
- Player A wins a corner and Player B curls it straight in?
- Player A passes one yard to Player C who backheels it to Player B who scores?

Some countries count some of those as assists and not others. An 'assist' would often be highlighted as being such if a player genuinely assisted a goal.

It's an Americanised bastardised stat nowadays.

I don’t care about other countries. I’m only interested in the way assist has been used in this league/country. You seem to think the definition has changed. I’d need to see some evidence of this because I’m fairly certain it hasn’t changed at all. Particularly interested in your assertion that “it used to be a subjective metric with common sense applied” because that’s a new one to me.

 

[Adisa]

How can someone say his pass to Lukaku shouldn't be regarded as an assist?
10 goals and 10 assists in January is a bloody good return for a young wide player.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I don’t care about other countries. I’m only interested in the way assist has been used in this league/country. You seem to think the definition has changed. I’d need to see some evidence of this because I’m fairly certain it hasn’t changed at all. Particularly interested in your assertion that “it used to be a subjective metric with common sense applied” because that’s a new one to me.

That's a bit blinkered. Care about World Cups? Champions League? Euros? They don't all have identical rules as to what constitutes an assist.

Irrespective of that I think the PL has changed it's rules a couple of times relating to if an assist is registered for a saved shot. (Previous it was, then got amended to 'Recorded if the original shot was on target'. Which is daft)

I know this because a billigerent friend wouldn't let it go and we all spent fcuking ages looking like sad cases crowded round a table looking at our phones.

I think the best famous example we found was that whoever passed to Maradona in 86 (Enrique I think?) was not credited with an assist. Nowadays he would be. I think there was a running joke centred around it in some way.

EDIT: Shit. Remembered that the point of comparison with Maradona was Becks' goal against Wimbledon. Spanks one in from the halfway line and whoever passed it to him recorded an assist.

An assist used to be a phrase. Now it's a countable stat.

 

[WoodysWallet]

He’s such a brilliant finisher, I hope he’s not pushed out of the starting line up by Alexis when he arrives.

 

[Nick7]

Didn't play particularly well, but still left his mark on the game. That's the sign of a good player. Jose has managed the player very well. All those posters who hammered Jose mercilessly for not starting Martial when he wasn't performing to the required standard look a bit silly now.

Agreed. Had a poor game overall, little was sticking with him. But he put in the work and stamped his mark on the game, when he can do that while not playing great, it's a good sign going forward.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That's a bit blinkered. Care about World Cups? Champions League? Euros? They don't all have identical rules as to what constitutes an assist.

Irrespective of that I think the PL has changed it's rules a couple of times relating to if an assist is registered for a saved shot. (Previous it was, then got amended to 'Recorded if the original shot was on target'. Which is daft)

I know this because a billigerent friend wouldn't let it go and we all spent fcuking ages looking like sad cases crowded round a table looking at our phones.

I think the best famous example we found was that whoever passed to Maradona in 86 (Enrique I think?) was not credited with an assist. Nowadays he would be. I think there was a running joke centred around it in some way.

EDIT: Shit. Remembered that the point of comparison with Maradona was Becks' goal against Wimbledon. Spanks one in from the halfway line and whoever passed it to him recorded an assist.

An assist used to be a phrase. Now it's a countable stat.

That’s news to me and the sort of evidence I’m looking for?

Although it’s irrelevant to the context of this thread, which is Pogba’s assist to Martial. Which would have always been considered an assist, since assists first entered the lexicon of English football.

 

[shield]

He is still quite young, but is still very good. He will continue to improve. Situation will become little tricky when Sanchez arrives. Hope this does not interfere with his development.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

That’s news to me and the sort of evidence I’m looking for?

Although it’s irrelevant to the context of this thread, which is Pogba’s assist to Martial. Which would have always been considered an assist, since assists first entered the lexicon of English football.

I'll send a few messages to folks and PM them to you if they get back to me with any swiftness.

Back to Pogbas assists;

Martials - Absolutely. A well weighted pass that could be hit first time.
Valencias - No chance. That's a solo goal.

It was to the latter I made my initial point.

So we're clear, I'm not dying on this hill. I don't actually care that assists are now counted by people watching deflections and working out angles using computers on replays. It's the same game.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'll send a few messages to folks and PM them to you if they get back to me with any swiftness.

Back to Pogbas assists;

Martials - Absolutely. A well weighted pass that could be hit first time.
Valencias - No chance. That's a solo goal.

It was to the latter I made my initial point.

So we're clear, I'm not dying on this hill. I don't actually care that assists are now counted by people watching deflections and working out angles using computers on replays. It's the same game.

And that latter would have always counted as an assist. Since assists first started being recorded. You can choose your own, alternative, definition of an assist if you want but don’t pretend that at some point in the past everybody else also used your definition. That didn’t happen.

 

[SpyLuke10]

Personally I think Alexis will slot in on the right side. Imagine that front 3 of Martial Lukaku and Alexis!

Or a front 4 of Martial, Lingard, Alexis and Lukaku

 

[charlenefan]

10 goals and 10 assists by mid-January in what is regarded as a lukewarm season from him. Can't wait to see what he'd be capable of when he'll have a good season.

I hope there's another level he can go to, even if it's just natural progression through age however I for one think he's having a wonderful season. IIRC he got 17 goals in his first season for us, hopefully he can top that this year (might be tough though with only 15 PL games remaining)

 

[Greck]

Actually thought he was poor with his link up and passing. His game doesn't quite translate as smoothly when he has to pick up the ball from deep but is generally class around and inside the box (but even that was below standard yesterday).

One of the reasons I'd prefer a 433 is that Martial/Rashford really have no clue how to play as pure left wingers. They just manage to produce in that role on sheer talent alone. The team's most productive players are more suited for a 433 but we persist with a 4231 despite having no real wingers and no influential No.10.

 

[Jeffthered]

The fact there is a constant debate about Anthony Martial is significant. In my opinion, I don't see all this greatness that some feel he 'potentially' has. He isn't great around the box. Make some comparisons to similar players ok... Mane, Salah, Leroy Sane... Sterling (who has added to his game by scoring scrappy, critical goals and improving his effectiveness..) Ali, Hazard... and er, Sanchez.. attacking forwards who are clearly more effective and more of a threat than Martial. CONSISTENTLY.

Martial needs to improve and I get the feeling he has ended up believing his own hype. Opening up his body and firing right-foot shots into the net will only ever get him so far. He is one-dimensional and over-rated. All this talk about being the best finisher at the club is more of a testimony to where we are as an attacking side.

Martial is a good Champions League player, who can score the odd good goal. But, on his current form, he is no potential Man Utd star. If he is what Man Utd consider top-talent, then we aren't winning a thing. He wouldn't add or improve Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham, or Man City because he isn't better than the players there.

So why is he good enough for us? No left foot. You hardly see him head the damn thing. ALWAYS cuts inside and complicates the game, and narrows the pitch. He doesn't do the extraordinary. He slows the game down, and he isn't good enough to dictate games. Limited work-rate (just compare to Rashford) Sorry, I see a decent player, who is still working out who is as a player. and he isn't some new player / arrival at United.

I would take Sanchez in exchange for Martial and a few million in a heartbeat.

But I think I am in the minority on here with these opinions, and this is fair enough.

 

[Silas]

The fact there is a constant debate about Anthony Martial is significant. In my opinion, I don't see all this greatness that some feel he 'potentially' has. He isn't great around the box. Make some comparisons to similar players ok... Mane, Salah, Leroy Sane... Sterling (who has added to his game by scoring scrappy, critical goals and improving his effectiveness..) Ali, Hazard... and er, Sanchez.. attacking forwards who are clearly more effective and more of a threat than Martial. CONSISTENTLY.

Martial needs to improve and I get the feeling he has ended up believing his own hype. Opening up his body and firing right-foot shots into the net will only ever get him so far. He is one-dimensional and over-rated. All this talk about being the best finisher at the club is more of a testimony to where we are as an attacking side.

Martial is a good Champions League player, who can score the odd good goal. But, on his current form, he is no potential Man Utd star. If he is what Man Utd consider top-talent, then we aren't winning a thing. He wouldn't add or improve Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham, or Man City because he isn't better than the players there.

So why is he good enough for us? No left foot. You hardly see him head the damn thing. ALWAYS cuts inside and complicates the game, and narrows the pitch. He doesn't do the extraordinary. He slows the game down, and he isn't good enough to dictate games. Limited work-rate (just compare to Rashford) Sorry, I see a decent player, who is still working out who is as a player. and he isn't some new player / arrival at United.

I would take Sanchez in exchange for Martial and a few million in a heartbeat.

But I think I am in the minority on here with these opinions, and this is fair enough.

You realise he's been our most productive player in terms of goals + assists per minute this season? How often do you watch those other players that you're saying are way better than him?

Is there a rota for who's tasked with posting nonsense in this thread? Is another Jaybomb post coming soon?

 

[Jeffthered]

It's a forum, people share opinions ok, so let's stop just dismissing things we don't agree with as nonsense. All of this is subjective ok.

Stats have crept into the game, and this is an example of how stats can be configured to say pretty much anything you like. If you honestly think Anthony Martial is for example, as good as or better than an Eden Hazard, then I cannot really discuss this further. It's like people need to quote stats to define how good a player is. I am glad that there is a discussion about 'assists' on another thread. A corner is an assist. A free kick is an assist. Martial thumped a heavy, clumsy pass into Lukaku last night, who did well to control it, hold men off and hit a cracking goal. But this is such an 'assist' that highlight's Martial's play?

If you feel that, it's up to you. But I cannot see this top, top player. He thinks he is better than what he is, in my opinion, and he is yet to figure out his game. Mbappe and Lamar are now picked ahead of him in the national side. Why? Dechamps doesn't have access to stats?

Just watch the guy play. He has some ability, but he's not a player who will start for the top teams in Europe. You think Martial and Mata in our front three is a sign of strength or a sign of how important it is that we develop the squad?

 

[jungledrums]

It's a forum, people share opinions ok, so let's stop just dismissing things we don't agree with as nonsense. All of this is subjective ok.

Stats have crept into the game, and this is an example of how stats can be configured to say pretty much anything you like. If you honestly think Anthony Martial is for example, as good as or better than an Eden Hazard, then I cannot really discuss this further. It's like people need to quote stats to define how good a player is. I am glad that there is a discussion about 'assists' on another thread. A corner is an assist. A free kick is an assist. Martial thumped a heavy, clumsy pass into Lukaku last night, who did well to control it, hold men off and hit a cracking goal. But this is such an 'assist' that highlight's Martial's play?

If you feel that, it's up to you. But I cannot see this top, top player. He thinks he is better than what he is, in my opinion, and he is yet to figure out his game. Mbappe and Lamar are now picked ahead of him in the national side. Why? Dechamps doesn't have access to stats?

Just watch the guy play. He has some ability, but he's not a player who will start for the top teams in Europe. You think Martial and Mata in our front three is a sign of strength or a sign of how important it is that we develop the squad?

How is Hazard a fair barometer to measure Martial’s talent? He’s not better than Hazard, but he’s a fantastic talent. Your underrating of him is ridiculous. For three seasons with us he’s shown how unbelievably productive he is, even during his bad slumps. He measures favourably against all the names you listed, particularly this season, and he’s steadily improving. If you cannot see the talent in Martial then I am afraid it is more an indictment on you than it is Martial.

 

[Silas]

It's a forum, people share opinions ok, so let's stop just dismissing things we don't agree with as nonsense. All of this is subjective ok.

Stats have crept into the game, and this is an example of how stats can be configured to say pretty much anything you like. If you honestly think Anthony Martial is for example, as good as or better than an Eden Hazard, then I cannot really discuss this further. It's like people need to quote stats to define how good a player is. I am glad that there is a discussion about 'assists' on another thread. A corner is an assist. A free kick is an assist. Martial thumped a heavy, clumsy pass into Lukaku last night, who did well to control it, hold men off and hit a cracking goal. But this is such an 'assist' that highlight's Martial's play?

If you feel that, it's up to you. But I cannot see this top, top player. He thinks he is better than what he is, in my opinion, and he is yet to figure out his game. Mbappe and Lamar are now picked ahead of him in the national side. Why? Dechamps doesn't have access to stats?

Just watch the guy play. He has some ability, but he's not a player who will start for the top teams in Europe. You think Martial and Mata in our front three is a sign of strength or a sign of how important it is that we develop the squad?

I'm aware he isn't as good a player as Hazard, don't worry. You named a group of players that are either closer to their prime or playing in a better attacking team and Martial hasn't really been far off the majority of them this season.

I'm not sure why you're complaining about the quality of his assist when you mentioned Sterling in your original post, who's mainly scored tap-ins. Should we discount those too? Regardless of that, clumsy isn't how I'd describe it, as it wouldn't have reached Lukaku in the first place if he didn't pass it that way. You just said he wasn't consistent and now that I've told you that, in terms of output, he's one of the more consistent players in the prem, stats don't matter and I'm twisting them to suit my argument? In what other way can goals and assists be interpreted?

What makes you think he's better than he is? Sounds like a lazy criticism based on his demeanour. Regarding the bolded, I'd suggest you take your own advice

 

[Sayros]

I'll try and find some proper links when I'm online properly. I had a quick look but it took us ages a few years back to find anything factual.

But for now;

Do all countries count it as an assist for Player A if;

- Player A wins a penalty and Player B scores it?
- Player A shoots, the keeper saves it and Player B scores?
- Player A passes to Player B in his own penalty box, Player B beats 10 men and scores at the other end?
- Player A wins a corner and Player B curls it straight in?
- Player A passes one yard to Player C who backheels it to Player B who scores?

Some countries count some of those as assists and not others. An 'assist' would often be highlighted as being such if a player genuinely assisted a goal.

It's an Americanised bastardised stat nowadays.

Outside of option 3 and 5, I think all countries consider the rest an assist. I'm not sure which countries are seeing it differently. All the examples, outside of the two mentioned, are legitimate assists anywhere.

 

[charlenefan]

Martial is one of those players who clearly could be destined for the top (maybe not the very very top but the next tier down), if you cant see that his potential is greater than most (lets say Rashford for example) then give up watching football because you clearly don't know a special player when you see one

 

[Basso]

So his contract is up next year! Hopefully there is a option for 1 more year?

 

[Full bodied red]

Martial is one of those players who clearly could be destined for the top (maybe not the very very top but the next tier down), if you cant see that his potential is greater than most (lets say Rashford for example) then give up watching football because you clearly don't know a special player when you see one

I really do have my doubts about Rashford - doesn't seem to have moved on at all the past two years, and could turn out to be another Welbeck.

Martial, on the other hand, often looks lethargic but appears to have it all if only he can be coached / persuaded into showing it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The fact there is a constant debate about Anthony Martial is significant. In my opinion, I don't see all this greatness that some feel he 'potentially' has. He isn't great around the box. Make some comparisons to similar players ok... Mane, Salah, Leroy Sane... Sterling (who has added to his game by scoring scrappy, critical goals and improving his effectiveness..) Ali, Hazard... and er, Sanchez.. attacking forwards who are clearly more effective and more of a threat than Martial. CONSISTENTLY.

Martial needs to improve and I get the feeling he has ended up believing his own hype. Opening up his body and firing right-foot shots into the net will only ever get him so far. He is one-dimensional and over-rated. All this talk about being the best finisher at the club is more of a testimony to where we are as an attacking side.

Martial is a good Champions League player, who can score the odd good goal. But, on his current form, he is no potential Man Utd star. If he is what Man Utd consider top-talent, then we aren't winning a thing. He wouldn't add or improve Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham, or Man City because he isn't better than the players there.

So why is he good enough for us? No left foot. You hardly see him head the damn thing. ALWAYS cuts inside and complicates the game, and narrows the pitch. He doesn't do the extraordinary. He slows the game down, and he isn't good enough to dictate games. Limited work-rate (just compare to Rashford) Sorry, I see a decent player, who is still working out who is as a player. and he isn't some new player / arrival at United.

I would take Sanchez in exchange for Martial and a few million in a heartbeat.

But I think I am in the minority on here with these opinions, and this is fair enough.

I think that’s harsh because you’re not giving him any scope to improve. My opinion on him is that there’s a terrific player in there if he can improve his all-round game and he’s young enough that this is still possible.

I do agree that there’s an emperor’s new clothes vibe regarding his status on the caf. He gets stuff wrong, repeatedly, that mid-table players who have the same role in their team would consistently get right. Simple stuff too. Timing of his runs. Defensive positioning. Picking and executing the right pass. It’s frustrating as feck to watch and doesn’t tally with the adulation his performance gets on here, even after a game where he’s been undeniably productive.

 

[Raees]

I thought Martial’s performance was like his last one. Scores a wonder goal so criticism seems churlish but, feck me, sometimes he looks like he can’t pass water. So many attacks breaking down because of a wayward pass or just playing with his head down. Him and Rashford cause a lot of the same problems. Which I’ll put down to being yong and lernin. Someone like Sanchez (and presumably the reason we wanted Perisic) in the mix will make a massive difference to our attacking football.

Agreed. Was poor last night aside from the goal. The fact he's developed an ability to score crackers even when off form is a step in the right direction to becoming a proper footballer though and not just a talent.

Teams will fear the fact he's a serious goal threat even if he is relatively quiet during the game.

 

[Acole9]

What a goal that was. I've tried that many times in six a side and it never works .

 

[SirAF]

What a goal that was. I've tried that many times in six a side and it never works .

Odd, isn't it?

 

[manunited1919]

I get the feeling Martial over the next year or two will transform into a goal scoring machine.

 

[Silas]

So his contract is up next year! Hopefully there is a option for 1 more year?

I think all our contracts come with one now. We should probably think about extending soon, though.

 

[JJ12]

Not the finished article and has plenty to improve on but the current Martial is still a very good player.

When it all clicks he will be staggering.