[Arka_BleedingRed]

I personally think that this criticism isn't limited to Mourinho. In Fergie's latter years post 2010, we've become increasingly reliant on individual brilliance rather than any noticeable, fluid pattern of play, hence no youth player has made any progress in the team, since they aren't taught to abide by a system but thrown into the deep end and has to rely on instincts. It also doesn't help that most of the promising youngsters we have since were/are no.9/10 by trade and the pressure of delivering at Utd means we often shunned them to the wings to get game time instead of playing in their natural positions. This even applies at the defence with Smalling/Jones/Evans all playing their fair share of games as fullbacks.

We are now stuck in this weird no man's land between trying to blood the kids and competing for silverware. Between 04-06 Fergie was prepared to stick by Rooney/Ronaldo even at the expense of veterans like Ruud because he was comfortable in his own job safety. Any Utd manager now is burdened with the pressure of winning silverware, especially the PL so we will see a lot more of taking shortcuts from Mourinho or whosoever follows him regarding the quality of our attacking play.

Most of it is probably due to our continuous emphasis on choosing supposedly risk free managers who are cautious, headstrong and stubborn instead of being flexible, innovative and attacking in nature.
Sure Moyes, LVG and Jose are different in their own styles and tactics. But they are all incredibly rigid, stubborn, afraid to try out new things. This itself seeps into their tactics and a result into the team's play and style.

 

[Dobbs]

I wouldn't bother about @Jaybomb guys. He's not gonna give an inch about what he considers 'Utd player' as if he's the only one capable in the whole fan base.

Young players have bad games. Nani was serving up the occasional stinker even in his 18 months of good form here, but sure, it's all down to Martial or Rashford for that matter that we fail to beat Bristol City, or hanging on for dear life against West Brom, or struggle to score more than a goal at home against Bournemouth.

This squad has no confident whatsoever to impose themselves and play freely for months already now. That comes from the top down.

Yeah agree. It's the main problem and I Don't see how others miss this.

Yeah we're 2nd right now but carry on like the last few months and we'll start to drop.

 

[M Bison]

He's a prime example of some of our players being massively overrated. He's been compared to Sterling, Jesus, Mbappe but he's no where near that level at the moment, hopefully he will at some point but way off it at the moment.

 

[Ban]

The problem with him which not many seem to put is his off the ball movement. How many times I have seen him just stand when he doesn't have the ball. I have never seen an attacker with such lack of movement. Most of the times even the midfielders out run him and are almost inside the oppositions box and I see him walking slowly. That concerns me.

Now coming to the manager. I don't think Jose is working enough with him. I see more emphasis is given on overall play which is fine but you have to do your job well first which most of our attackers are not doing.

Whenever Martial starts I get excited and want him to score and do well because I don't trust Jose. I really hope Jose doesn't freeze him out again because He said most of the players starting today won't start against Leicester. Whenever such statements come I fear for marital.

I might have missed when was he freezed out the first time. Not to mention he's been starting games a lot recently.

 

[Ban]

Even Messi would struggle in a Jose side

Did Ronaldo struggle?

 

[Raees]

Did Ronaldo struggle?

The younger Ronaldo would definitely have struggled under Jose's management and defensive demands. The prime Ronaldo who combined flair as well as goals would also have not enjoyed playing under Jose.. luckily for Jose, he managed the goal-hungry Ronaldo who just wanted goals at any cost and thus could buy into the counter-attack at all costs philosophy.

Tactically Ronaldo wasn't a bad fit for a Jose team as he was essentially playing as a striker and everyone else was doing his running but it was because he had a huge status so Jose was forced to build the side around him.

Someone like Messi at all ages would struggle in a Jose side, it would be similar to seeing him play for Argentina where he struggles to shine in a more workmanlike or non-cohesive side which just attacks off the cuff.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Did Ronaldo struggle?

Ronaldo never tracked back, he practically played as a wide striker who never tracked his runner, Khedira did most of the dirty work for him and Benzema would work back if required.

Obviously that game plan worked for them because Ronaldo had such a threat going forward it wasn't worth him tiring.

 

[roonster09]

The younger Ronaldo would definitely have struggled under Jose's management and defensive demands. The prime Ronaldo who combined flair as well as goals would also have not enjoyed playing under Jose.. luckily for Jose, he managed the goal-hungry Ronaldo who just wanted goals at any cost and thus could buy into the counter-attack at all costs philosophy.

Tactically Ronaldo wasn't a bad fit for a Jose team as he was essentially playing as a striker and everyone else was doing his running but it was because he had a huge status so Jose was forced to build the side around him.

Someone like Messi at all ages would struggle in a Jose side, it would be similar to seeing him play for Argentina where he struggles to shine in a more workmanlike or non-cohesive side which just attacks off the cuff.

Ronaldo was at his prime during Jose's time at Madrid. Ozil played his best football playing for Jose, why would Messi struggle when he can play in the same position but twice the player Ozil is? Hazard won PFA player of the year award playing under Jose, Di Maria, Sneijder all played their best football under Jose. Why would Messi be any different?

 

[roonster09]

Ronaldo never tracked back, he practically played as a wide striker who never tracked his runner, Khedira did most of the dirty work for him and Benzema would work back if required.

Obviously that game plan worked for them because Ronaldo had such a threat going forward it wasn't worth him tiring.

Same thing would have happen if Messi played instead of Messi tracking back? When the player is of Messi or Ronaldo calibre, no one asks them to track back and work hard. Not even Jose as everyone knows what sort of numbers they put on the board.

 

[Raees]

Ronaldo was at his prime during Jose's time at Madrid. Ozil played his best football playing for Jose, why would Messi struggle when he can play in the same position but twice the player Ozil is? Hazard won PFA player of the year award playing under Jose, Di Maria, Sneijder all played their best football under Jose. Why would Messi be any different?

Ronaldo's prime didn't occur because he happened to be under Jose's management, he would have been GOAT level regardless of who was managing. If anything he won more trophies post Jose's departure and was more successful in a more attacking side.

Yes Messi could do Ozil's job, but would he be as epic as he is in a Barcelona set up - hell no.

Di Maria is a workhorse so suited to working in a Jose system, even so it was under a tactical tweak by Ancellotti where he played his best football and truly hit world world class levels.

Would Hazard have lasted for longer than 3-5 years under Jose management? no chance. Ultimately there would have been and in fact there was a clash. Hazard wanted to do less running, Jose found that unacceptable in a wide man.

Most attacking players would definitely thrive more in a Pep system than in a Jose one. Ronaldo is one of the few, I think could thrive in either possibly better in Jose's tbh but even so a young Cristiano would not have developed as well under Jose like he did under Fergie.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Same thing would have happen if Messi played instead of Messi tracking back? When the player is of Messi or Ronaldo calibre, no one asks them to track back and work hard. Not even Jose as everyone knows what sort of numbers they put on the board.

Any player would be worse in attack if they had to run laps up and down the pitch all day.

Look at Hazard, he was much worse under Jose because he made him follow the fullback up and down the pitch.

Now that Conte has played 3-4-3 and lets Hazard stay up the pitch he is much more effective.

We should be doing the same with Martial, he's an explosive player who needs his energy to attack, tracking back just kills him.

 

[McGrathsipan]

He doesn't work hard enough for me.
Off the ball he offers nothing.
No movement to give defenders decisions.

Got to up his game

 

[roonster09]

Ronaldo's prime didn't occur because he happened to be under Jose's management, he would have been GOAT level regardless of who was managing. If anything he won more trophies post Jose's departure and was more successful in a more attacking side.

Yes Messi could do Ozil's job, but would he be as epic as he is in a Barcelona set up - hell no.

Di Maria is a workhorse so suited to working in a Jose system, even so it was under a tactical tweak by Ancellotti where he played his best football and truly hit world world class levels.

Would Hazard have lasted for longer than 3-5 years under Jose management? no chance. Ultimately there would have been and in fact there was a clash. Hazard wanted to do less running, Jose found that unacceptable in a wide man.

Most attacking players would definitely thrive more in a Pep system than in a Jose on. Ronaldo is one of the few, I think could thrive in either but even so a young Cristiano would not have developed as well under Jose like he did under Fergie.

Oh so from even Messi would struggle in Jose's side to he won't be as good as he was for Barca.

Hazard wouldn't last longer than 3-5 years? Who cares, he played 2 seasons where he was brilliant, winning PFA player of the year once. Now time period is brought into the discussion.

Thanks for stating the obvious that attacking players thrives more under Pep than Jose, no one argued otherwise.

 

[roonster09]

Any player would be worse in attack if they had to run laps up and down the pitch all day.

Look at Hazard, he was much worse under Jose because he made him follow the fullback up and down the pitch.

Now that Conte has played 3-4-3 and lets Hazard stay up the pitch he is much more effective.

We should be doing the same with Martial, he's an explosive player who needs his energy to attack, tracking back just kills him.

That's obvious. Point was if Ronaldo wasn't asked to run up and down the pitch, Jose wouldn't have asked Messi to do the same.

I agree Martial shouldn't be asked to drop deep, he should be in attacking positions.

 

[Raees]

Thanks for stating the obvious that attacking players thrives more under Pep than Jose, no one argued otherwise.

There you go then, so what was the point of bringing up those examples that you did and wasting my time.

 

[roonster09]

There you go then, so what was the point of bringing up those examples that you did and wasting my time.

Maybe you forgot your initial point then. Even Messi would struggle under Jose. Yeah, there are only 2 levels, struggling and absolute peak.

If Ronaldo wasn't asked to run like a mad man and not rated based on his work rate, there is no reason to assume Messi would have been asked to work hard for the team defensively. Some of the attacking players played their best football under Jose, it's not hard to understand.

 

[JPRouve]

Ronaldo's prime didn't occur because he happened to be under Jose's management, he would have been GOAT level regardless of who was managing. If anything he won more trophies post Jose's departure and was more successful in a more attacking side.

Yes Messi could do Ozil's job, but would he be as epic as he is in a Barcelona set up - hell no.

Di Maria is a workhorse so suited to working in a Jose system, even so it was under a tactical tweak by Ancellotti where he played his best football and truly hit world world class levels.

Would Hazard have lasted for longer than 3-5 years under Jose management? no chance. Ultimately there would have been and in fact there was a clash. Hazard wanted to do less running, Jose found that unacceptable in a wide man.

Most attacking players would definitely thrive more in a Pep system than in a Jose one. Ronaldo is one of the few, I think could thrive in either possibly better in Jose's tbh but even so a young Cristiano would not have developed as well under Jose like he did under Fergie.

There is nothing that would prevent Ronaldo from being even better in Pep's system, we are talking about a player with incredible vision, decision making, movement, technique and mental. He has no tactical limitations other than asking him to defend and waste his sharpness due to too much effort on the wrong area of the field.

Martial on the other end doesn't have all those attributes, he is very good at scoring goals and he does it in a way that is relatively clear, he doesn't have the tactical versatility that someone like Ronaldo has, he is the striking version of Robben, he has one way of scoring goals and it works the vast majority of the time.

 

[Ban]

Blaming all of Martial problems on Jose is wrong. Sure he could shine more under a different manager but he himself must change some things in his way of playing and attitude.

 

[Festive Sandvich]

Blaming all of Martial problems on Jose is wrong. Sure he could shine more under a different manager but he himself must change some things in his way of playing and attitude.

It's nonsense to blame it on Jose because he was shining under Jose just a few short weeks ago. People read too much in to a couple of crap performances.

 

[Jim Beam]

Who’s talking about now? I’m saying we were much better with the likes of Nani and Hernandez back THEN. And we were.

Martial is overrated cause of a stupid Ballon d’Or clause he’s never gonna win. He’s not much different to the likes of Memphis Depay. Another Van Gaal signing that doesn’t fit the philosophy of the club. The sooner we get rid of all them, the better.

Sorry, but this has to be one the stupidest post I've read around here. You've actually managed to make the post progressively worse with every added sentence.

 

[sunama]

Much like the team, he's very consistent in his inconsistency. Always works best when used off the bench (he always puts in a great performance then), which results in him earning a starting place in the first eleven, which then results in a poor performance.

Rinse and repeat.

I don't think that he gives a poor performance when starting.
I think that if he comes on with 25 minutes to go, he is fresh, while the defenders he is up against, are tired (Rashford tires them out).
When he starts however, he is up against defenders who are as fresh as he is, so he doesn't have an advantage over them in speed/fatigue.

 

[SteveW]

Some lunatics in here on both sides. Kid had a poor game. It wasn't Jose's fault or anyone elses. It also doesn't mean he's overrated or lazy or whatever.

 

[BusbyMalone]

I don't think that he gives a poor performance when starting.
I think that if he comes on with 25 minutes to go, he is fresh, while the defenders he is up against, are tired (Rashford tires them out).
When he starts however, he is up against defenders who are as fresh as he is, so he doesn't have an advantage over them in speed/fatigue.

Well yeah, that's obvious. That has been well established. It works the other way around, too, when Rashford comes on for him. The same principles apply. Opposition players are fatigued, etc.

The point is he's obviously very inconsistent when he starts. His stats off the bench are superb, but sometimes struggles to get into the game when starting. He a tremendously talented individual who will no doubt improve when it comes to his consistency.

 

[Ban]

Sorry, but this has to be one the stupidest post I've read around here. You've actually managed to make the post progressively worse with every added sentence.

Just seen that. What a load of bollocks.

 

[Ban]

Problem with him is that he mostly wants the ball at his feet instead of running behind defences more and giving more options for a passing to him.

 

[haram]

He doesn't work hard enough for me.
Off the ball he offers nothing.
No movement to give defenders decisions.

Got to up his game

These issues are glaring. People only look at him when he is dribbling with the ball. He has to do more than that. His movement simply has to improve. I am not in here to bash him after last night. It happened, we have to get over it. However, these flaws are apparent in his game and it will not all be okay the next match day. People keep talking him as a potential ballon dor winner but unless he dramatically improves this side of his game he has no chance.

 

[Ban]

As they should. United traditions should never be abandoned. Mourinho can feck right off if he chooses to abandon all that in favor of going full negative, physical football. Thankfully, I doubt he even wants to do that or is actually feeling pressured into doing it. Genuinely think at Chelsea they always demanded instant results and didn't care about youth so he just played the old heads. Here he didn't hesitate to play youth. You adapt to the club's traditions.

And yeah, he'd play Messi as a winger and demand he tracks back and does his role defensively just like he did with Hazard (and then dropped him, the most talented player in the league), instead of realizing that some players you just need to let them do their own thing as they are that talented on the ball. Can't man manage everyone in the same way, you need to be able to adapt to your players.

As stated above Ronaldo didn't have to track back nor Messi would have had...

 

[McGrathsipan]

These issues are glaring. People only look at him when he is dribbling with the ball. He has to do more than that. His movement simply has to improve. I am not in here to bash him after last night. It happened, we have to get over it. However, these flaws are apparent in his game and it will not all be okay the next match day. People keep talking him as a potential ballon dor winner but unless he dramatically improves this side of his game he has no chance.

It's about attitude.
His doesnt look right.

 

[VeevaVee]

He has a lot of poor games. Moreso than a lot let him off for because of his age imo.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

It's about attitude.
His doesnt look right.

I agree with this, and I must add that I really do like him as a player and a lad.

But I think what this United side needs right now (from our forwards) is energy, exuberance and good decision making...

Martial has often become the literal opposite of all of these, and it's gone on for 2 seasons now - his mindset just seems a little negative, which might be way off the mark, but it does look that way a fair bit of the time.

It's one of those where I'm so wary of letting him go and then watching him bloom elsewhere, but at the same time, it's at the point where if he left and was replaced with a solid signing I don't think I'd be that bothered.

Again, I could be way off the mark, but as the time has gone on, as much as I like him, he just doesn't really feel like a true United player to me. And I think his seemingly gloomy demeanor probably contributes to me feeling like that.

 

[kouroux]

These issues are glaring. People only look at him when he is dribbling with the ball. He has to do more than that. His movement simply has to improve. I am not in here to bash him after last night. It happened, we have to get over it. However, these flaws are apparent in his game and it will not all be okay the next match day. People keep talking him as a potential ballon dor winner but unless he dramatically improves this side of his game he has no chance.

People do ?

 

[MadMike]

He has a lot of poor games. Moreso than a lot let him off for because of his age imo.

Entitled to your opinion of course, but I think it's the exact opposite. He of course has bad games, but he gets microanalysed to shit when he does. His stats and contribution from the wing are only behind Salah and Sterling this season. And that's for a Mourinho team that sadly does not play the fluid attacking football that Liverpool and City play.

I just think there is no balance in the comments' section. People go overboard with criticism, or praise sometimes to be fair. He's been having a very good season, but couple of bad games and apparently he's shit now.

 

[Blind17]

We are living in a world where Martial is often criticized for being lazy while he works his ass off in opposition half and runs with the ball as soon as he gets it, I guess people don't understand he has to beat 3 players even before entering the opposition third.

Compare that to Sane at city who only has to beat his fullback before driving at goal. We won't see his full potential in such a defensive set up.

 

[Jim Beam]

People do ?

Nope.This ballon d'Or talk comes from the clause in his contract, but I fail to see people actually seriously talking about him being one.

Some see him as a potentially world-class player and that's it.

 

[Number1]

He's been dreadful last few games but I'm sure his match rating as gone up

 

[Jim Beam]

He's been dreadful last few games but I'm sure his match rating as gone up

If you're talking about match ratings here, last 4 games have been: 5.3, 5.8, 5.7 and 4.5.

 

[breakout67]

Ronaldo and Messi would struggle under Mourinho...oh wait Ronaldo had his best goalscoring 3 seasons under Mourinho. Ok, he's just Ronaldo so it doesnt matter, good attacking players struggle under Mourinho...oh wait Lampard, Drogba, Snejder, Deco, Di Maria, Ozil were all sensational under him.

Di Maria and Ozil joined Real Madrid for Mourinho at the age of 22. Both were fantastic under him. Ozil is very similar to Martial in that he is a player that doesn't like to track back and wants to stay in the final third. Ozil was the best no.10 in the world under him (or very close).

In fact, we had a player very similar to Martial at United; Nani. Nani was extremely talented but also inconsistent under the greatest manager of all time. The longer he stays at the club, the more he appears to be a Nani type of player rather than a Ronaldo type of player.

 

[PepsiCola]

We are living in a world where Martial is often criticized for being lazy while he works his ass off in opposition half and runs with the ball as soon as he gets it, I guess people don't understand he has to beat 3 players even before entering the opposition third.

Compare that to Sane at city who only has to beat his fullback before driving at goal. We won't see his full potential in such a defensive set up.

But 14 years ago deco was brilliant under Mourinho! He's a attacking genius of a coach.

I agree. Martial and Rashford just aren't suited to Mourinho's football. Heck the best player in the PL for the last few years was made to constantly track back.

 

[Darkhorsez]

Entitled to your opinion of course, but I think it's the exact opposite. He of course has bad games, but he gets microanalysed to shit when he does. His stats and contribution from the wing are only behind Salah and Sterling this season. And that's for a Mourinho team that sadly does not play the fluid attacking football that Liverpool and City play.

I just think there is no balance in the comments' section. People go overboard with criticism, or praise sometimes to be fair. He's been having a very good season, but couple of bad games and apparently he's shit now.

Exactly

 

[breakout67]

Apparently tracking back is a cardinal sin and attacking players should never do it. Virtually every manager (including our lord and saviour Guardiola) tells the wide players to track back.

In the 2nd half vs City at OT, City sat back and tried to counter attack. One of Sterling and Sane were always covering their fullback in the defensive phase, while the other was up the pitch. In a turnover the ball was given to KdB ASAP and he would find the player that was up the pitch.

In order to counter attack players must track back to pressure the opponent into mistakes by restricting the space.

Next thing you'll see in this thread is that midfielders shouldnt track runners into the box or else you're a negative manager.