Havent watched a lot of Monaco bar the champions league but who replaced him in the Monaco team once he signed for us ?
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 42
- Goals
- 8
- Assists
- 8
- Yellow cards
- 3
- Status
Nobody really, he wasn't that important for them to begin with, they still cannot believe we paid this much for him. Jardim just adapted to a more defensive system last season, while incorporating young players slowly.
Erm I wish we had a flat track bully this season.
Indeed.
Give me a 20+ league goals scorer, over a guy who does umpteen dribbles with no end product.
Scoring goals is our major problem. Creating goals is actually quite easy for us.
Martial is not the problem, Jose and his management are our biggest issues this season! Never seen such a negative United side since I started to support this club; I can even go far and claim we're more boring than a LVG United!
Yes people can said that we are now createing more chances than under LVG but are we really more entertaining than the previous season??
Maybe this will need a new thread somewhere but are we really more entertaining than under LVG and his philosophy? Bare some games that mostly ended in a draw, are people really enjoying this season? Because I am not that impressed by this side and really feel boring when I watch us play and most of the time I lose my interest in the game and the reason for this are multiples:
1) the defensive tactic and we're even not good at this compared to teams that mastered that brand of football (Atletico, Chelsea,...);
2) our lack of plan going forward as the main tactic was get the ball to Ibra and most of the time we had no idea how to do it effectively and relied to the individuality of Pogba and other attacking players;
3) many players turning into shit but people keep blaming them instead of questioning what's going wrong and the reason for this;
4) the behaviour of our manager and his way of openly attacking players through media and creating unnecessary problems and broking players confidence! Some people say that it helps players raising their game and becoming better but I would like to know that single guy who has been great since then?
5) the way we keep being dominated by some average teams, yes people will claim that it happened under SAF but under him it was a rarity then something we have to swallow almost every week;
Under LVG we were boring but we had a plan but lacked the players to execute it; but now we have the players but have no clue what we're doing! We're not good going forward, not good in the middle, not good in defending, not good in keeping possession, not good in counter attack, ...! It seems like the manager just send the players in the pitch and tell them "go out and fight fight fight. .." without proper instructions and tactics and I think some players are struggling because they need proper instructions! It is not a surprise players like Martial, Mkitharyan, Shaw and Pogba were flying under good tactician managers but are now struggling under Jose who like fighters like Valencia, Herrera, Lingard, Rashford, Drogba, .... but struggles to get the best out of talented and more technical players.
Martial is a great players as he showed it last season for us, he just need his confidence back and a manager who'll praise him for what he's good at not for "working hard" and defend 90% of the time he's on the pitch.
Yes people can said that we are now createing more chances than under LVG but are we really more entertaining than the previous season??
Maybe this will need a new thread somewhere but are we really more entertaining than under LVG and his philosophy? Bare some games that mostly ended in a draw, are people really enjoying this season? Because I am not that impressed by this side and really feel boring when I watch us play and most of the time I lose my interest in the game and the reason for this are multiples:
1) the defensive tactic and we're even not good at this compared to teams that mastered that brand of football (Atletico, Chelsea,...);
2) our lack of plan going forward as the main tactic was get the ball to Ibra and most of the time we had no idea how to do it effectively and relied to the individuality of Pogba and other attacking players;
3) many players turning into shit but people keep blaming them instead of questioning what's going wrong and the reason for this;
4) the behaviour of our manager and his way of openly attacking players through media and creating unnecessary problems and broking players confidence! Some people say that it helps players raising their game and becoming better but I would like to know that single guy who has been great since then?
5) the way we keep being dominated by some average teams, yes people will claim that it happened under SAF but under him it was a rarity then something we have to swallow almost every week;
Under LVG we were boring but we had a plan but lacked the players to execute it; but now we have the players but have no clue what we're doing! We're not good going forward, not good in the middle, not good in defending, not good in keeping possession, not good in counter attack, ...! It seems like the manager just send the players in the pitch and tell them "go out and fight fight fight. .." without proper instructions and tactics and I think some players are struggling because they need proper instructions! It is not a surprise players like Martial, Mkitharyan, Shaw and Pogba were flying under good tactician managers but are now struggling under Jose who like fighters like Valencia, Herrera, Lingard, Rashford, Drogba, .... but struggles to get the best out of talented and more technical players.
Martial is a great players as he showed it last season for us, he just need his confidence back and a manager who'll praise him for what he's good at not for "working hard" and defend 90% of the time he's on the pitch.
I don't believe Martial is more talented than Rashford. I am yet to see anything that backs up that notion.
Having said that, measuring talent is tricky. Very subjective. So I guess you are indirectly expressing your preferred idea of what talent is all about.
One thing is sure: we were certainly watching two different Manchester United team's this season.
The one I've been watching (with the exception of finishing, which admittedly has been poor) has played good football at least 60% of the time this season, average football about 30% of the time and very poor football about 10% of the time.
This is of course all subjective so my post is not to criticize your view.
Are you actually serious....
Do you know what inflation is mate? The arguement that Rooney cost less money 10 fekin years ago (actually double check gone to 13 now) isn't really a good one. Of course Rooney's been exceptional for what we paid for him even by back then standards... but that really isnt a point.
Rooney in current day standards would probably have cost 60 million minimum, not even joking. Consider the fact hes english, had an amazing start to his career from 16 years old, and is in a top side of the table club... You'd be paying Dele Alli level money, if not more.
Besides that Martial was well worth 36 for his amazing first season, his second seasons been mediocre for sure... But you cant write a player off after one season.
It pains me that people are on martials ass when Depay didnt even have a good span of games longer than 4-5 and people still wanted to keep him.
This is going to be a funny thread to look back on in a year or so. He's going to be a brilliant player
This. I'd argue Pogba,Mata, Mkhitaryan, Rashford and Herrera all more talented than Martial.
Saying Martial's performances has been poor this season is understandable but saying Rashford is more talented? 
It's seems people have conveniently forgotten that Rashford struggled for most parts this season just like Martial and only recently hit form when he was continually starting matches and played as CF (due to Ibra's injury). Martial hasn't had such luxury. Mourinho enjoys kicking him out of the first team(sometimes even out of the squad entjrely) on the back of a single bad performance though it happens less in recent times because we are short of options going forward due to the injuries and Jose just has to play him.
For the record I don't think Sane/Sterling is more talented than him.
People here are too fickle.
It's seems people have conveniently forgotten that Rashford struggled for most parts this season just like Martial and only recently hit form when he was continually starting matches and played as CF (due to Ibra's injury). Martial hasn't had such luxury. Mourinho enjoys kicking him out of the first team(sometimes even out of the squad entjrely) on the back of a single bad performance though it happens less in recent times because we are short of options going forward due to the injuries and Jose just has to play him.
For the record I don't think Sane/Sterling is more talented than him.
People here are too fickle.
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Yes it's all subjective and thanks for your view.
I presume and think that what we call "good football" was a gang ho style where we played against teams who parked the bus and were happy to concede possession and let us dominate the game! As we noticed, against team that where willing to play football we immediately turned defensive and tried to exploit some mistakes from then, hence the bad stats against top 6 teams. We even struggled against low teams that came to play football ( Southampton in the Cup final, Burnley, Anderlecht, and so more games that I forget to name).
When I watch City, Liverpool, Tottenham, Chelsea and even Arsenal play, I always question myself and compare their games to ours and come to the conclusion that we're sitting 5th in merite! We don't deserve to be above those teams as they all play good football than us and display good energy during a game! Our tactic of scoring 1 goal then bring in Fellaini or a defensive player to protect the lead is just so annoying and kills the joy to watch football! I understand it in knock out round but not most of the time I watch us play, i used to hate Chelsea for that kind of behaviour. We rarely score more than 1 goal, this is worrying for a United side.
Precisely. Can't fecking stand the people on his case. Imagine supporting your players for once? Bloody infuriating.
Too many people are so desperate to defend Mourinho. It seems that last season didn't happen or they completely erased it from their memory! If someone brought up the idea to sell Martial at the end of last season, most would be happy to fight to keep him.
It seems that Martial, our highest score and best outfield player and more exciting young guy since Ronaldo, never happened! People have decided to write him off after 1 bad season. Sad.
I agree with these denominations. Whilst I do feel fans exaggerate the general level of our football and how often we played well, it is at least more than half our games. We haven't had too many poor games so yeah this seems legit.
Sterling has done far more for longer and is a better dribbler. Martial the better finisher but he isn't too clever so they are similar abilities, its just Sterling has been proving it for longerSaying Martial's performances has been poor this season is understandable but saying Rashford is more talented?
It's seems people have conveniently forgotten that Rashford struggled for most parts this season just like Martial and only recently hit form when he was continually starting matches and played as CF (due to Ibra's injury). Martial hasn't had such luxury. Mourinho enjoys kicking him out of the first team(sometimes even out of the squad entjrely) on the back of a single bad performance though it happens less in recent times because we are short of options going forward due to the injuries and Jose just has to play him.
For the record I don't think Sane/Sterling is more talented than him.
People here are too fickle.
Don't think he's a better dribbler. He's definitely done it for longer than Martial, but that doesn't make him more talented.
All this hue and cry over Martial would not have happened if Mourinho had come out and defended him. Instead, Mourinho went on to publicly criticize him time and again. So, people, who see Mourinho as our saviour, feel the need to come here and justify him, because he can do no wrong, even though criticising arguably your most talented player, in public, is kind of weird (or any player for that matter).
Stone is struggling, Pep openly defends him saying things are always going to be difficult for defenders in his system. Things are also going to be difficult for out forwards in Mourinho's system, but Martial has this "He needs to give me things that I like".
Why? People are saying what they see.
If it turns out well, there's gonna be a smug 'I told you so' brigade, despite the criticism being justified as things stand
You have no idea what Martial is like outside of games. I'll go off what I see in them, and that's lacklustre, so I'll trust Jose was right
Literally has nothing to do with any of that. If Martial was playing well, Jose could say Martial fecked his wife and no-one would give a shit. Just because people are on his case, doesn't mean they want him out. In fact, I want Martial to stay because I think he has more to offer. Does that mean he's free of criticism? No.
Also he's not the most talented player in our squad, Pogba is, one season of good form doesn't make a player a world beater, he still has everything to prove.
The fact that some rate Martial so highly is why he's getting so much criticism. He's much better than this, it's not Jose's fault, it's not where he's playing (his best form for us came out wide last season), it's on him. You can blame negative tactics and what not all you like, but that doesn't explain why he's been so poor in games we've dominated, why he was poor towards the end of last season, why he was dire at the Euros etc. When and if he starts performing again, people will go back to singing tunes about him, until then he's going to get criticism as any other player would get.
There's people comparing his treatment to Lingard etc, that's laughable. Martial is a much better talent than Lingard, there are different standards for him, as it should be. Lingard is in the squad for a very specific tactical purpose and he does it very well. Martial is the better player, so the standards expected should also be greater.
I totally get you and I have to agree with a lot of what you have said.
The reality is that there are three aspects to Jose's history when it comes to playing big teams:
1. He always seem to play conservatively against them while relying on a very deadly counter attacking system to hit back.
2. He has one of the best records in big games in Europe. One can easily check this. His first stint at Chelsea, his Inter stint, etc. In Madrid, he was up against the most dangerous team we have seen in many decades but he eventually started getting decent results against them. The usual pattern you will see in his results against the big teams is a win at home and a draw away. He hardly goea away to play for a win against the big teams.
This season and the last, are probably his worst performances against the big and small teams in his career.
3. His teams often dominate smaller teams.
Again, last season and this season are the worst for him in terms of results against the smaller teams.
The above points indicate two possible things:
- Jose has lost his magic and is on a decline
- Or he does not yet have the type of players who can deliver using his preferred method in both the big and small games.
As at now, it's a bit tricky for me to conclude. The number of chances the team has missed this season make it difficult for me to draw any conclusions. If some of those chances had been taken, would have conversations be different? I think so.
Again, looking at the 'big' games this season.
Chelsea away was obviously a disaster. Chelsea at home was good play.
Liverpool away was balanced in the first half but very conservative and defensive in the second half. Liverpool at home was evenly balanced in attacking terms. We eventually conceeded to a Pogba error in the box.
City at home: We were very average in the first half but had a more adventerous second half in attacking terms. City away: we were too conservative and defensive.
Arsenal at home: we dominated almost for 70 minutes in attacking terms. Arsenal away: we had a balanced first half and crumbled after two quick goals in the second half.
Tottenham at home: We were unshackled in attacking terms and dominated for about 55 minutes of the game. The rest was more balanced.
Everton at home and away: I'll say, we were simple done in by poor finishing.
Overall, we need to accept that Jose tends more to conservative play combined with sharp counter attacks against the big teams - especially when playing away. This is his pattern and fans who love tiki taka football will never warm up to him. Against the smaller teams, he tends to batter them in an efficient rather than aesthetic way (His teams' goalscoring records are very impressive minus the last season and this one).
I think time will tell. If he has the type of players he wants and results are still the way they are, then we can safely conclude that Jose's time is gone.
On the contrary, if they start playing the way he wants and get good results, we will then know if we can or cannot live with the type of football he serves.
Saying we should sell the player after one iffy season is hardly justified. It just shows how fickle and short sighted football supporters can be.
Most people aren't saying that though. They're just calling him out for not being good enough
You also have no idea about him, so why you decide to blame him and blindly trust Jose?
And what we also see is United sitting 5th under Mourinho management!
So you trust Jose despite the fact he's underachieving after spending a tone of money last summer and many players are not playing at their true level?
Supporting the manager is one thing but blindly following him is another! It seems that Mourinho can never be wrong despite the fact his history at previous club suggest otherwise.
Yes we've to trust Jose, but what happened to the support and trust to our players?
I don't mind the criticism. I could even criticize Ronaldo for scoring only 2 when he could have scored 5. But it is like people are not paying attention to the context at all and just see that he is not scoring and want to criticize him for that.
Did you see the last match. The tactics were borderline shameful. It is like Mourinho had conceded defeat even before the match. Full back sitting deep, wingers made to sit deep, only washed up Rooney huffing and puffing in midfield. Then I come here and there are so many posters complaining about Martial's performance. I mean, what performance, we could not even get the ball out of our own half. But, he should have morphed into Zlatan and held up the ball, he should have dribbled past everyone. We never ever look like committing players ahead, so, why do we judge or forwards in such circumstances.
It is like some people were waiting to come here and criticize him. I agree he has had a difficult season, and could have done much better in some matches, but I think Mourinho could have managed him better. He was not even getting consistent games but is getting them now because Zlatan is injured. And also you can not blame negative tactics all you want, but the fact is that the tactics are undeniably negative and difficult on attackers, so so then going and criticizing them in the press is not good management.
Strongly agree with the bolded. Modern football fans are always looking for someone to blame. It hasn't worked out for Tony this season but I've no doubt both parties are doing their utmost to rectify that.
Good post about Jose. I really never liked team he managed because I am one of those who love good football, control and possession football; I like to see team attack and not sit deep and defend! But I accepted and understood his appointment because it was a necessity: we needed instant success and he was the master to deliver that, but after this season, I am starting to wonder may be we got him at the wrong time! Let wait and!
Martial main play style so far is very limited imo, can only play at the LW position effectively. Lotsa dribbles and cutting in to shoot or cross low from the left wing. Just that. It's okay if he could do it consistently good, but even then he would be predictable and easily countered.
Also it could explain Martial's poor form generally this season compare to last, opponent know how to nullify him. Which is why I think Jose doesn't play him that much, other than other reasons. Too inconsistent and doesn't offer much varieties.
Capable to do more, and should do more. Good potential mind.
I still have hope of him.
If his potential is following along Thierry Henry's playstyle stream, then Martial should mixed it up, add more attacking elements to his game. Henry's not just a simple striker, he's more all around for me, roaming type, dangerous from every directions and angles with his speed, dribbles, and mad shooting skills. Good in team play movements too.
Also it could explain Martial's poor form generally this season compare to last, opponent know how to nullify him. Which is why I think Jose doesn't play him that much, other than other reasons. Too inconsistent and doesn't offer much varieties.
Capable to do more, and should do more. Good potential mind.
I still have hope of him.If his potential is following along Thierry Henry's playstyle stream, then Martial should mixed it up, add more attacking elements to his game. Henry's not just a simple striker, he's more all around for me, roaming type, dangerous from every directions and angles with his speed, dribbles, and mad shooting skills. Good in team play movements too.
Yeah Jose knows football and has a pedigree, are thone the reasonsame why he has been sacked 3 times at his previous clubs after created unnecessary conflicts between him and the players? Was it because he knows football that he left Chelsea flirting with relegation last season and he's having us sitting 5th this year?
When the players are so poor and making some bad decisions and basics errors, then some questions have to be asked about their training, right? For me that is the testament that they are not well trained. Under LVG we had a better conversion rate than this season, because he trained his players how to shot, how to position themselves, how to pass the ball,..... but this season it's another history!
I am just saying that our players also need support and trust, the same kind of support we are ready to give to Jose. It's not right to see people kicking players because Jose said some staff against them, he has done nothing for this club to deserve this kind of blind faith!
I think we are over analysing what is essentially a normal situation in every young player's career. What has impressed me in recent weeks is his work rate. Especially the Arsenal and City games,he worked his socks off.
I am glad he has said on many occasions that he want to fight. What he needs now is a good holiday and coming back fresh for preseason.
I am glad he has said on many occasions that he want to fight. What he needs now is a good holiday and coming back fresh for preseason.
Away with the performance, work-rate and body language natter, and let's nail the important issue - Does he get the #9 shirt back next year?
A struggling young player in a squad full of struggling players being coached by a newly appointed manager. Honestly he hasn't been that bad. Everyone has bad games where they have trouble making an impact. For the amount of playing time he has had, how young Martial still is, and the fact that our entire team has been struggling this season I don't think he deserves to be criticized like he is. Let the kid mature a bit and find his feet next season. We all know how good he is on the ball in addition to his pace and strength
I do and data backs me up that Raheem averages more dribbles and has had seasons where his success rate is far far higher (in the 60%'s) where as Martials is around below 50% success. His dribbling is overrated as we don't have many good dribblers in our squad
I disagree, we were more negative and boring under LVG. Yes we have been more entertaining this season. Now we are creating more chances, but not finishing those chances. It's a confidence issue with some players as they are getting the chances and failing to score, which is affecting their confidence. Once those half chances go in the confidence will improve and we will become better in attack. I have seen more entertaining games in one season of Jose than in two seasons of LVG and one season of Moyes.
Even Jose has a plan, the plan is to play counter attacking football. But most of our players just hold the ball and slow down the attack. Jose is struggling to come up with better plans to beat teams which park the bus. We are good in defending, the midfield has improved since Pogba came in, in attack also we have been okay it's just that we are struggling to finish and we aren't keeping possession because of the counter attack tactics. Look at the Chelsea game, we had a plan and it worked out brilliantly.
Martial's dribbling is better than Sterling's. Sterling's dribbling is probably closer to Rashford's level.
Martial's best season is arguably better than Sterling's best. Make of that what you will.
The fact that you keep going back to last match and using examples from the big games proves my point. As I said, that doesn't excuse his performances in other circumstances. Big games and negative tactics or whatever aside, I can count on one hand the amount of good performances he's had this season that I can recall and for a player of his ability that's not good enough, it's on him. I'm not judging him purely in those big games (even though he should have done better, as Lingard and Rashford have shown against Chelsea). What about the games where we were completely dominating, what about with France at the Euros or towards the end of last season? He's been poor in a majority of games now, not just games where the tactics were negative.
If Martial is playing poorly, he should be judged as any other player would. The fact that he's talented and has a high ceiling is exactly why we should expect more from him. This isn't just bad tactics, he just doesn't look as sharp as he use to. He's holding onto balls for too long, running into dead ends, not releasing the ball to teammates nearby quick enough etc.
Man management and whatever aside, if his terrible form is down to Jose being mean to him and him losing his number, then he really doesn't have the mentality to make it. Players worth their salt would do all they could to prove the manager wrong (assuming that Jose is being a cnut to him of course, which I highly doubt as he's praised him in the media countless times) Also, I really don't care to get into a discussion about his management of Martial. Fact of the matter is none of us know how he treats the players, all we have to go by is interviews etc. For all we know he's tried everything with Martial.
Saying Martial's performances has been poor this season is understandable but saying Rashford is more talented?
It's seems people have conveniently forgotten that Rashford struggled for most parts this season just like Martial and only recently hit form when he was continually starting matches and played as CF (due to Ibra's injury). Martial hasn't had such luxury. Mourinho enjoys kicking him out of the first team(sometimes even out of the squad entjrely) on the back of a single bad performance though it happens less in recent times because we are short of options going forward due to the injuries and Jose just has to play him.
For the record I don't think Sane/Sterling is more talented than him.
People here are too fickle.
Rashford is about three times stronger mentally, has a passing ability that is way less erratic than Martial's, Rashford has displayed wider variety of skills like backheels, rabonas, flick overs than Martial who seem mostly rely on his direct running and pace to get past defenders. Rashford link up play is better as he tends to release quicker passes. It was there on display in the game against Chelsea when he was linking up with Lingard. Even last season he was linking up with likes of Fellaini only for the big guy to hit the cross bar with his shot. Rashford sends in much better crosses, Martial rarely crosses and when he does it's a random kick into the penalty area. Rashford has a good long range shot on him, has hit a good free kick very recently whilst the only time I saw Martial take a long shot was once this season when he hit the post. Rashford has more agility, better balance, more determination, better understanding of what's around him. Rashford closes down opponents better, chases long balls down and has as a result scored about three goals by simply closing down the goalkeepers. That also means he is a hard worker.
I don't understand how people can say stuff like Mourinho likes to give a youngster like Rashford a chance while doesn't like Martial for no apparent reasons. The difference in quality is very clear this season. It has more to do with Rashford's stronger mentality and self belief. Martial is more talented than Rashford if pace, dribbling skills and flair are the only thing you take into account. Rashford edges Martial if the season's output is taken account. But if we look at overall set of skill both players posses, it looks like Martial has the potential to be master of one, a beast at beating players and then cutting into the penalty area while Rashford could be jack of all trades. As of now, Rashford surely looks more talented than Martial. The fact that it may or may not change in the future shouldn't be a part of a discussion that talks about their current abilities.
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Not in Dribbling and never will be. Sterling beats players easier and more consistently. the data backs it again
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