[VeevaVee]

Something that Jose and some people fail to understand! It's all about tough love.
Our best talented young player since Ronaldo and we've alienated him for no reason! With a flying Martial, we'd be fighting with Chelsea and Tottenham; the boy carried this team last season!

He's been ineffective in every appearance apart from one other I can remember this season. Jose is bringing back earning your place, and with that comes passion. Which is what used to set us apart from others.

Ronaldo had no end product for a while but consistently improved and even when poor he managed to impose himself on games in some fashion early on. Time for Martial to impose himself regularly. If he's anywhere near as good as his biggest fans on here make out, he should be a fairly early developer.
Yesterday should be about his base level, not his top.

 

[Fracture90]

I have a feeling that no matter how many times i watch the game you will tell me to watch it again unless i agree with you. And no matter what the video and stats say you will always think that you can watch the game better than anyone else.

This is both ways pretty much. You will try to persuade me he actually wasn't playing more centrally, which he did. Ofc he was switching to the sides occasionally depending the stage of development the attack was in.

 

[RedEM10]

Well, he certainly is capable of that. Lol

what a guy hes clearing been reading my posts on the caf!

 

[Nick7]

Is he genuinely pacy or not? It's weird but even after watching him so many times I can't decide one way or the other. I mean, obviously on a scale of Mata to Rashford he's closer to the Rashford end, but is he actually fast fast like Rashford, or is he just the sort of fast which any forward who dribbles needs to be if they're going to be any good?

Maybe it's because he doesn't kick and rush, almost ever. He keeps the ball under very very tight control, even when he's dribbling into space not towards defenders. Look at that long run he made today with Barton behind him. Barton couldn't catch up to make a tackle, sure, but he didn't get left behind either, because Martial was dribbling with the ball stuck to his feet, using his strength and balance to keep Barton behind him rather than just burning him off with pace.

If anyone has a clip of him demonstrating raw pace, put me out of my existential doubt please.

I think that comes down to the styles of running, Rashford is more of a kick and run. He does a feint or flick and puts on the afterburners. Martial yesterday, kept the ball close and in his control. Players don't run as fast with the ball, certainly when they're in control of it, so he looks like he's slower. I would say in a straight race Rashford is faster but with the ball at their feet and in full control of it Martial is faster. They just have different styles of dribbling. Both effective in different situations.

 

[Fracture90]

Thus, when Martial plays on the LW his responsibility is to mainly hug the line, provide width and track the full back. He doesn't have the same freedom Mkhi and Mata enjoy. He is not "banned" from moving centrally per se, but he has to be very aware not to drag defenders centrally with him and clutter the space around the main striker or the #10. It's an extra thing he has to keep in mind and be aware of.

What is described above is typical wing play. Martial does not have it in him. Maybe it's a training issue, maybe it's an intelligence issue, maybe it's simply an experience issue... I don't know. But the fact is, when he has the freedom of the park to make runs, he makes them. We saw it today and we saw it most of last season. He can run at players and link up well with the other attackers if he's not saddled with the responsibility of maintaining a shape for the team. When he has to play as winger, he seems very indecisive with his movement and reading of the game. He can't make up his mind when to make a run and when to sit on the line to simply drag the right back away from the centre.

In other words, the lad is a forward and not a winger. When he's part of a mobile attack where positions can be interchanged freely and he's been given the freedom of movement like he was today, he will perform better for us overall. Of course there will be games when teams will park the bus, like the WBA game, where there's generally not enough space for him to move. Of course he'll have shit games too, like vs Anderlecht, there doesn't always have to be an excuse for why he's had a bad game. Bad games happen.

@breakout67 here you go, MadMike explains it perfectly.

Difference between yesterday and previous Martial's games is that he was pretty much chained to the left byline, he was starting everything on the LW. Yesterday he was starting in the middle and could roam around but was essentially a striker.

 

[RedMaestro]

Glad to see that Martial scored. Much needed for his confidence and the remaining games this season. Still think Rashford is better as the lone striker, but it's good to see that Martial can 'help' Rashford if he has an off day or when he's tired..

 

[prath92]

But that's not what you said 1st, you said that Rashford has been better than Martial, I asked for stats to back this because I completely disagreed with it.

if you go by stats rooney (6 goals + 10 assists) is better than Martial (8 goals + 7 assists). Rashford has been much better than martial this season. Its not difficult to observe.

 

[Santoryo]

if you go by stats rooney (6 goals + 10 assists) is better than Martial (8 goals + 7 assists). Rashford has been much better than martial this season. Its not difficult to observe.

He hasn't been "much" better than Martial. What he's been is trusted by his manager which is why he managed to get into some form lately.

Rashford went God knows how many games without scoring nor assisting and was quite wasteful in his play with constantly running the ball out of play.

However what happened was that Mou still trusted him and after a tough period of not scoring in probably more than 15-20 league games he started coming into form.

So no, Rashford having been much better than Martial(stats in productivity showing the very opposite)is a revisionism which has started being thrown around because Rashford has finally gotten himself into form the past 3-4 games.

 

[prath92]

He hasn't been "much" better than Martial. What he's been is trusted by his manager which is why he managed to get into some form lately.

Rashford went God knows how many games without scoring nor assisting and was quite wasteful in his play with constantly running the ball out of play.

However what happened was that Mou still trusted him and after a tough period of not scoring in probably more than 15-20 league games he started coming into form.

So no, Rashford having been much better than Martial(stats in productivity showing the very opposite)is a revisionism which has started being thrown around because Rashford has finally gotten himself into form the past 3-4 games.

Stats in productivity also shows Rooney being more productive. So does that mean he should have started too?

 

[Santoryo]

Stats in productivity also shows Rooney being more productive. So does that mean he should have started too?

Dude Rashford was literally running the ball out of play 5 times out of 10 everytime he tried any sort of runs while also being incredibly wasteful in his play. In typical Caf fashion people were moaning and asking for him to be dropped.

Mou persisted with and has finally come into form in the last 4 games. Now people want to act as if he's been a hit all season. This is the type of revisionism that so often happen on the Caf.

And yes despite being in and out of the team Martial was somehow more productive than the consistently played Rashford(compared to Martial) untill lately when the latter finally got some form.

 

[prath92]

Dude Rashford was literally running the ball out of play 5 times out of 10 everytime he tried any sort of runs while also being incredibly wasteful in his play. In typical Caf fashion people were moaning and asking for him to be dropped.

Mou persisted with and has finally come into form in the last 4 games. Now people want to act as if he's been a hit all season. This is the type of revisionism that so often happen on the Caf.

And yes despite being in and out of the team Martial was somehow more productive than the consistently played Rashford(compared to Martial) untill lately when the latter finally got some form.

the difference being that he was trying things and didnt come off. Martial was barely trying. He would try one dribble or so and then when that fails he gives up. That was him in most games this season and though he would have the rare game where he would score, he didnt do it enough.

 

[Santoryo]

the difference being that he was trying things and didnt come off. Martial was barely trying. He would try one dribble or so and then when that fails he gives up. That was him in most games this season and though he would have the rare game where he would score, he didnt do it enough.

If you want to say Rashford was running more than Martial and such than say it, but don't equate his constant running to productivity just because you want to interpret it that way.

The game isn't about distance covered which some seems to be equating to productivity somehow. Martial was simply more productive in that period as shown by stats goals and assists combined despite playing less and not given a consistent platform to perform unlike Rashford with being in and out of the team.

 

[LoveFootball]

He's been ineffective in every appearance apart from one other I can remember this season. Jose is bringing back earning your place, and with that comes passion. Which is what used to set us apart from others.

Ronaldo had no end product for a while but consistently improved and even when poor he managed to impose himself on games in some fashion early on. Time for Martial to impose himself regularly. If he's anywhere near as good as his biggest fans on here make out, he should be a fairly early developer.
Yesterday should be about his base level, not his top.

Ah, I see that the myth about Mourinho at its highest level on here, he can never be wrong, it's all about the players and not him! When his philosophy collapsed at both Madrid and Chelsea, it was not his fault! Ronaldo, Casillast, Ramos, Xavi, Hazard, Costa, Eva, ....are all evil persons who couldn't adapt to the holy infallible philosophy!

Players are not robots, they are human being who need different kind of approach and different philosophy! That's the reason why SAF was a great manager, because he had different approaches for different players!
When you have a talented player like Martial, you need to adapt your philosophy according to him for the only reason that he's still young and has already show his potential last season! He already show us that he works hard and can be very disastrous if you put him in the right environment.
From day one, Jose mishandled him and killed his confidence forgetting the fact he was still a 20 year old boy coming from a difficult international tournament and having some personal problems. Tell me how will you feel if your number was removing from you and giving to a 35 new player despite the fact you carried the team and were the best player the previous season?

We can say all we want about Martial, but Jose is responsible for this problem, he's a specialist of creating unnecessary problems in the team like we witnessed with Madrid and Chelsea! The same happened to Shaw and Mkitharyan and we almost lost the entire season because our manager didn't want to adapt his philosophy!

 

[prath92]

If you want to say Rashford was running more than Martial and such than say it, but don't equate his constant running to productivity just because you want to interpret it that way.

The game isn't about distance covered which some seems to be equating to productivity somehow. Martial was simply more productive in that period as shown by stats goals and assists combined despite playing less and not given a consistent platform to perform unlike Rashford with being in and out of the team.

Its not a case of just running around. He was genuinely trying stuff. Martial rarely did that and even when he tried to dribble past and failed, he then would be invisible for most of the game. He was up against a rookie vs Liverpool but he didn't do a lot.

Again productivity doesnt suggest anything. We think Rooney is done, yet he is more productive than either of them.

 

[Womp]

Ah, I see that the myth about Mourinho at its highest level on here, he can never be wrong, it's all about the players and not him! When his philosophy collapsed at both Madrid and Chelsea, it was not his fault! Ronaldo, Casillast, Ramos, Xavi, Hazard, Costa, Eva, ....are all evil persons who couldn't adapt to the holy infallible philosophy!

Players are not robots, they are human being who need different kind of approach and different philosophy! That's the reason why SAF was a great manager, because he had different approaches for different players!
When you have a talented player like Martial, you need to adapt your philosophy according to him for the only reason that he's still young and has already show his potential last season! He already show us that he works hard and can be very disastrous if you put him in the right environment.
From day one, Jose mishandled him and killed his confidence forgetting the fact he was still a 20 year old boy coming from a difficult international tournament and having some personal problems. Tell me how will you feel if your number was removing from you and giving to a 35 new player despite the fact you carried the team and were the best player the previous season?

We can say all we want about Martial, but Jose is responsible for this problem, he's a specialist of creating unnecessary problems in the team like we witnessed with Madrid and Chelsea! The same happened to Shaw and Mkitharyan and we almost lost the entire season because our manager didn't want to adapt his philosophy!

 

[Hugh Jass]

He has to keep it up. He worked hard yesterday.

 

[VeevaVee]

Ah, I see that the myth about Mourinho at its highest level on here, he can never be wrong, it's all about the players and not him! When his philosophy collapsed at both Madrid and Chelsea, it was not his fault! Ronaldo, Casillast, Ramos, Xavi, Hazard, Costa, Eva, ....are all evil persons who couldn't adapt to the holy infallible philosophy!

Players are not robots, they are human being who need different kind of approach and different philosophy! That's the reason why SAF was a great manager, because he had different approaches for different players!
When you have a talented player like Martial, you need to adapt your philosophy according to him for the only reason that he's still young and has already show his potential last season! He already show us that he works hard and can be very disastrous if you put him in the right environment.
From day one, Jose mishandled him and killed his confidence forgetting the fact he was still a 20 year old boy coming from a difficult international tournament and having some personal problems. Tell me how will you feel if your number was removing from you and giving to a 35 new player despite the fact you carried the team and were the best player the previous season?

We can say all we want about Martial, but Jose is responsible for this problem, he's a specialist of creating unnecessary problems in the team like we witnessed with Madrid and Chelsea! The same happened to Shaw and Mkitharyan and we almost lost the entire season because our manager didn't want to adapt his philosophy!

Who said Jose can never be wrong? Or is that just your own nonsense to set yourself up for a million and one assumptions regarding Jose and Martial.

You've no idea how fair or unfair Jose has been. The number thing doesn't interest me. That wouldn't stop a winner.

 

[Fracture90]

Ah, I see that the myth about Mourinho at its highest level on here, he can never be wrong, it's all about the players and not him! When his philosophy collapsed at both Madrid and Chelsea, it was not his fault! Ronaldo, Casillast, Ramos, Xavi, Hazard, Costa, Eva, ....are all evil persons who couldn't adapt to the holy infallible philosophy!

Players are not robots, they are human being who need different kind of approach and different philosophy! That's the reason why SAF was a great manager, because he had different approaches for different players!
When you have a talented player like Martial, you need to adapt your philosophy according to him for the only reason that he's still young and has already show his potential last season! He already show us that he works hard and can be very disastrous if you put him in the right environment.
From day one, Jose mishandled him and killed his confidence forgetting the fact he was still a 20 year old boy coming from a difficult international tournament and having some personal problems. Tell me how will you feel if your number was removing from you and giving to a 35 new player despite the fact you carried the team and were the best player the previous season?

We can say all we want about Martial, but Jose is responsible for this problem, he's a specialist of creating unnecessary problems in the team like we witnessed with Madrid and Chelsea! The same happened to Shaw and Mkitharyan and we almost lost the entire season because our manager didn't want to adapt his philosophy!

Harsh but you raise valid points.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Ah, I see that the myth about Mourinho at its highest level on here, he can never be wrong, it's all about the players and not him! When his philosophy collapsed at both Madrid and Chelsea, it was not his fault! Ronaldo, Casillast, Ramos, Xavi, Hazard, Costa, Eva, ....are all evil persons who couldn't adapt to the holy infallible philosophy!

Xavi Hernandez??

 

[ivaldo]

Ah, I see that the myth about Mourinho at its highest level on here, he can never be wrong, it's all about the players and not him! When his philosophy collapsed at both Madrid and Chelsea, it was not his fault! Ronaldo, Casillast, Ramos, Xavi, Hazard, Costa, Eva, ....are all evil persons who couldn't adapt to the holy infallible philosophy!

Players are not robots, they are human being who need different kind of approach and different philosophy! That's the reason why SAF was a great manager, because he had different approaches for different players!
When you have a talented player like Martial, you need to adapt your philosophy according to him for the only reason that he's still young and has already show his potential last season! He already show us that he works hard and can be very disastrous if you put him in the right environment.
From day one, Jose mishandled him and killed his confidence forgetting the fact he was still a 20 year old boy coming from a difficult international tournament and having some personal problems. Tell me how will you feel if your number was removing from you and giving to a 35 new player despite the fact you carried the team and were the best player the previous season?

We can say all we want about Martial, but Jose is responsible for this problem, he's a specialist of creating unnecessary problems in the team like we witnessed with Madrid and Chelsea! The same happened to Shaw and Mkitharyan and we almost lost the entire season because our manager didn't want to adapt his philosophy!

Good lord, would you listen to yourself? Mourinho needs to adapt his philosophy to suit a sporadic teenager who he isn't even the best striker in the team? We are Manchester United, we have several class players and will sign/produce several more. The players works for the manager, not the other way around. He isnt Ronaldo or Messi, he's not even established himself at the highest level yet.

We've seen several players perform poorly and have subsequently been dropped by a Jose. When they have been reintroduced into the side their workrate and commitment has increased and so have their performances. You're delusional if you can't see that. Put aside your dislike for the man and romance for Martial and you'll see its plain. There was a 50/50 Martial went into yesterday that he would never have gone into a few weeks ago.

Mourinho is a specialist in success. He's among the best managers in the world right now and he shouldn't be pandering to players who aren't willing to work their arse off for the team.

Is it no suprise that Shaw and Mhikitaryan, the two players ypu highlighted and returned far stronger after their exile? Mhkitaryan has adapted and become a key player for us this season and we are finishing the season incredibly strong.

There has been a complete lack of competitive edge since Fergie left and player power had reigned during Moyes and LVGs time here and you want to maintain that? Crazy.

 

[Dobbs]

Good lord, would you listen to yourself? Mourinho needs to adapt his philosophy to suit a sporadic teenager who he isn't even the best striker in the team? We are Manchester United, we have several class players and will sign/produce several more. The players works for the manager, not the other way around. He isnt Ronaldo or Messi, he's not even established himself at the highest level yet.

We've seen several players perform poorly and have subsequently been dropped by a Jose. When they have been reintroduced into the side their workrate and commitment has increased and so have their performances. You're delusional if you can't see that. Put aside your dislike for the man and romance for Martial and you'll see its plain. There was a 50/50 Martial went into yesterday that he would never have gone into a few weeks ago.

Mourinho is a specialist in success. He's among the best managers in the world right now and he shouldn't be pandering to players who aren't willing to work their arse off for the team.

Is it no suprise that Shaw and Mhikitaryan, the two players ypu highlighted and returned far stronger after their exile? Mhkitaryan has adapted and become a key player for us this season and we are finishing the season incredibly strong.

There has been a complete lack of competitive edge since Fergie left and player power had reigned during Moyes and LVGs time here and you want to maintain that? Crazy.

If you think Mourinho has managed those two correctly ok but you simply can't use their form this season to prove that point.

Shaw's season has almost been a complete waste. The decent performances he has put in he was capable of three years ago. Mkhi has been decent, nothing more. Worse than he was last year.

I'm not necessarily blaming Mourinho for two players being below their best but equally you definitely can't use them as support for Martial's "exile."

 

[ivaldo]

If you think Mourinho has managed those two correctly ok but you simply can't use their form this season to prove that point.

Shaw's season has almost been a complete waste. The decent performances he has put in he was capable of three years ago. Mkhi has been decent, nothing more. Worse than he was last year.

I'm not necessarily blaming Mourinho for two players being below their best but equally you definitely can't use them as support for Martial's "exile."

Shaw was looking overweight and uninterested earlier in the season, would you dispute that? Mhkitaryan did indeed look a shadow of his former self prior to his dropping, he's looked better since being restored, would you agree? Martial put in more of a shift yesterday than he was at any other point in the season including going into 50/50s he would've never gone for before, agreed? Several players have come out in support of Mourinho's comments and his approach seems almost universally accepted by the team.

All evidence we have available to us points to Mourinho's tough love approach working and have far more grounding than the opinon he's mismanaged all these players.

 

[LoveFootball]

Who said Jose can never be wrong? Or is that just your own nonsense to set yourself up for a million and one assumptions regarding Jose and Martial.

Just read this thread and the Mkitharyan and Shaw's one! All the blame are on the players, not the manager despite the fact he is seriously underperforming after the amount of money he spent!

You've no idea how fair or unfair Jose has been. The number thing doesn't interest me. That wouldn't stop a winner.

You also have no idea how unfair Jose has been; so stop putting all the blames on the players!

The number thing doesn't interest you? You have no idea how motivation works!

Good lord, would you listen to yourself? Mourinho needs to adapt his philosophy to suit a sporadic teenager who he isn't even the best striker in the team? We are Manchester United, we have several class players and will sign/produce several more. The players works for the manager, not the other way around. He isnt Ronaldo or Messi, he's not even established himself at the highest level yet.

1st of all Martial is not a sporadic teenager, we bought him for big money and he was our best player and best scorer last season! Basically the future of the club and the biggest young talented player we got since Ronaldo! He isn't Ronaldo or Messi but he was our bread and butter last season, without him we would be nowhere because he was basically carrying the attack by himself! Yes he isn't Ronaldo or Messi, but the 2 became the monsters they are now because at one time the manager trusted them and allowed an environment which helped them to rise their game. I doubt Messi and CR7 would be the same players if they constantly being criticised by the manager everytime they had a bad game and being dropped for the next 5,6 games!
We are Manchester United and we're greater than Mourinho too! We have our values and we always protected young players, not harshly attacking them at every opportunity to speak to the press as if was trying to deflect attention from his poor results.

We've seen several players perform poorly and have subsequently been dropped by a Jose. When they have been reintroduced into the side their workrate and commitment has increased and so have their performances. You're delusional if you can't see that. Put aside your dislike for the man and romance for Martial and you'll see its plain. There was a 50/50 Martial went into yesterday that he would never have gone into a few weeks ago.

Pogba and Ibra have performed poorly but have been protected by the manager, the same with Fellaini, Rashford, Lingard! It seems that with Jose there's 1 rule for his darlings and another one for talented players who don't want to sacrifice their talent to became more defensive minded!
What I noticed is this : when he dropped and criticised a player, the latter will come back and perform for 1 or 2 games then became average again! This happened to Mkitharyan and Martial (Shaw is the next)!

The fact remains that all the talented attacking players are under performing because Jose is a defensive manager who forces his attacking players to be the same, reason why he always fall out with them! Never seen another manager criticising CR7 as he did! He then went in fight with Hazard and Costa, 2 other offensive players! And now we got the Mkitharyan, Martial and Shaw saga!

Mourinho is a specialist in success. He's among the best managers in the world right now and he shouldn't be pandering to players who aren't willing to work their arse off for the team.

Oh! That's the reason why he has been fired from Madrid and Chelsea?

Is it no suprise that Shaw and Mhikitaryan, the two players ypu highlighted and returned far stronger after their exile? Mhkitaryan has adapted and become a key player for us this season and we are finishing the season incredibly strong.

Mkitharyan has regressed! If you watched him at Dortmund, you'd said that we got his twin! Shaw is not progressing too!

There has been a complete lack of competitive edge since Fergie left and player power had reigned during Moyes and LVGs time here and you want to maintain that? Crazy.

No, I don't want to! I just want a better management for both players! A selective one!

 

[dirkey]

Ah, I see that the myth about Mourinho at its highest level on here, he can never be wrong, it's all about the players and not him! When his philosophy collapsed at both Madrid and Chelsea, it was not his fault! Ronaldo, Casillast, Ramos, Xavi, Hazard, Costa, Eva, ....are all evil persons who couldn't adapt to the holy infallible philosophy!

Players are not robots, they are human being who need different kind of approach and different philosophy! That's the reason why SAF was a great manager, because he had different approaches for different players!
When you have a talented player like Martial, you need to adapt your philosophy according to him for the only reason that he's still young and has already show his potential last season! He already show us that he works hard and can be very disastrous if you put him in the right environment.
From day one, Jose mishandled him and killed his confidence forgetting the fact he was still a 20 year old boy coming from a difficult international tournament and having some personal problems. Tell me how will you feel if your number was removing from you and giving to a 35 new player despite the fact you carried the team and were the best player the previous season?

We can say all we want about Martial, but Jose is responsible for this problem, he's a specialist of creating unnecessary problems in the team like we witnessed with Madrid and Chelsea! The same happened to Shaw and Mkitharyan and we almost lost the entire season because our manager didn't want to adapt his philosophy!

Out of interest, does this mean you don't think Jose is a great manager? Off topic I know .. so feel free not to answer.

 

[SteveW]

Is he genuinely pacy or not? It's weird but even after watching him so many times I can't decide one way or the other. I mean, obviously on a scale of Mata to Rashford he's closer to the Rashford end, but is he actually fast fast like Rashford, or is he just the sort of fast which any forward who dribbles needs to be if they're going to be any good?

Maybe it's because he doesn't kick and rush, almost ever. He keeps the ball under very very tight control, even when he's dribbling into space not towards defenders. Look at that long run he made today with Barton behind him. Barton couldn't catch up to make a tackle, sure, but he didn't get left behind either, because Martial was dribbling with the ball stuck to his feet, using his strength and balance to keep Barton behind him rather than just burning him off with pace.

If anyone has a clip of him demonstrating raw pace, put me out of my existential doubt please.

Pretty sure a Google search will bring up stories about him having the joint fastest sprint or something like that last season. He's rapid

 

[Dobbs]

Shaw was looking overweight and uninterested earlier in the season, would you dispute that? Mhkitaryan did indeed look a shadow of his former self prior to his dropping, he's looked better since being restored, would you agree? Martial put in more of a shift yesterday than he was at any other point in the season including going into 50/50s he would've never gone for before, agreed? Several players have come out in support of Mourinho's comments and his approach seems almost universally accepted by the team.

All evidence we have available to us points to Mourinho's tough love approach working and have far more grounding than the opinon he's mismanaged all these players.

Physically he looks about the same size now as he did then. I'd be amazed if anybody can say for sure he's lost weight by looking at him.

I don't want to get too bogged down in this as it's the Martial thread but your whole way of judging this is off. You're using very small samples to say "he was bad then but good now."

Ultimately two quality players have had average or poor seasons. Worse than what we know they're capable of. I don't see how they can be cited as proof of any approach working.

 

[Yeesheng]

if Jose had been protecting Shaw/Martial/Mikhi throughout the season without them playing well, some of you will just label Jose as playing favourites again.

Perhaps he has been taking a selective approach all along? Maybe he is of the view that Shaw, Martial and Mikhi require tough love, whereas Pogba, Fellaini and Ibra require him to back them up with strong support? We don't know or see these players on a daily setting nor personal basis, so how can we comment on Jose's management with any kind of certainty?

All I can see is that our players are responding now and applying themselves more. There is more fight, more grit and a stronger mentality. I like that and I think that is positive moving forward. Instead of saying that the players would have done well and it was Jose who held them back seems baseless.

Is it even true that Jose does not favour creative players anyway - thought he pretty much favoured Oscar over Mata?

Enjoy our progress folks, stop nit picking on Jose just because you may hate him.

 

[ivaldo]

No because Messi and Ronaldo were model professionals who worked their arses off to be where they are now. Their attitude and commitment was and still is on a whole different level to what we are seeing from Martial currently.

You honestly think Martial is consistent? A consistent player wouldn't be putting in the appalling performances Martial was putting in earlier this season, it's not as if Mourinho was playing him left back.

Pogba and Ibra have still given their all. They have done whatever the manager has asked of them. They aren't visibly sulking on the bench because Mourinho opted to bring on Young to replace an injured Shaw. When they have come on they haven't meandered around looking totally disinterested. That's why Mourinho has trusted them. And for what it's worth they have still performed at a far higher level than Martial has.

Do you seriously think he's just attacking players for no reason? He's doing it to motivate the player. And you're massively overreacting to the criticism Jose has given by the way.

Jose has over 25 trophies in his career, he's a fair bit bigger than Martial. Do you also not beleive United's philosophy also involves working your arse off for the team and showing full commitment to the manager and team? Why should Martial be able to put in half a shift when the rest of the team are expected to give their all?

Yes Mhikitaryan isn't playing as well as last season. It's also incredibly well documented that he doesnt have great first seasons at clubs. Was Mourinho 'attacking' him from the moment he arrived or was he dropped because he wasn't performing? He's trying to get him back go the level he should be at and he's improved since he was dropped. Not to mention he came out and categorically agreed with Mourinho's decision.

Oh being a poor man manager is the reason he has won everything there is to win in the game? Have a word with yourself.

 

[ivaldo]

Physically he looks about the same size now as he did then. I'd be amazed if anybody can say for sure he's lost weight by looking at him.

I don't want to get too bogged down in this as it's the Martial thread but your whole way of judging this is off. You're using very small samples to say "he was bad then but good now."

Ultimately two quality players have had average or poor seasons. Worse than what we know they're capable of. I don't see how they can be cited as proof of any approach working.

But he's looking more determined, he's working harder.

We are discussing Jose's treatment of Martial. So a clear difference from before Jose's treatment of a player to after he brings them back into the team is evidence of whenever he is vindicated in his decision or not.

Let's put this another way. What proof can you give me that Jose's treatment of these players, and Martial, has resulted in their performances deteriating. Bare in mind Martial was dog shit this season before he was criticised.

 

[Donut]

Did he really play any different than he usually does (on his good game) ?

Can't help but think the only way he did start was because there was almost literally no one else.

 

[Dobbs]

But he's looking more determined, he's working harder.

We are discussing Jose's treatment of Martial. So a clear difference from before Jose's treatment of a player to after he brings them back into the team is evidence of whenever he is vindicated in his decision or not.

Let's put this another way. What proof can you give me that Jose's treatment of these players, and Martial, has resulted in their performances deteriating. Bare in mind Martial was dog shit this season before he was criticised.

I really don't get this. He's been poor for most of the season after being great last season. How much more of a deterioration is needed?

The only thing I can think is that you put that deterioration solely down to Martial. As you have with Shaw and Mkhitaryan. Then after being left out for long periods of time you put any up turn in form, even if it's just one game (as is the case with Martial),down to Jose.

 

[Home&Away]

I really don't get this. He's been poor for most of the season after being great last season. How much more of a deterioration is needed?

The only thing I can think is that you put that deterioration solely down to Martial. As you have with Shaw and Mkhitaryan. Then after being left out for long periods of time you put any up turn in form, even if it's just one game (as is the case with Martial),down to Jose.

This is exactly what's confusing me. Martials good game has more to do with him playing centrally as a striker. There is absolutely no evidence we as fans have that they lack work ethic or anything with regards to their mentality.

People will complain saying that Martial doesn't run around enough at the wings but that is far from the truth - what we really want to see is him and all his other team mates score goals. Of course he is going to run more and play better as a striker - he knows exactly how to do that. How people assume it's mentality over tactics that has the rest of the squad bar Ibrahimovic scoring such minute number of goals is just too hard for me to understand.

Someone on another thread were attributing Arsenals poor campaigns to poor mentality. Sure that may be a part of it but they have much more fundamental flaws in tactical approach and players before you can begin to blame the mentality.

Either way a manager has to boost not all the mentality but the morale of their players. He might be doing one But he can't be helping the other.

 

[shield]

I really don't know what goes on. It is really really strange.

I had this theory:
Theory: Mourinho wants players to execute his instructions just as he has told them. If he sees players not performing or executing the instructions the way he has told them, then he does not trust them that much.

Initially I thought this was the reason Martial was not played. But I have seen Lingard's performances, in a few matches. Sometimes he is in the middle, sometimes he is in the wing, sometimes in the No. 9 position getting in others way. Strange that he is allowed to roam around and a more disciplined, skilled and talented player in Martial was finding it difficult to be in Mourinho's plans.

This led me to believe,
Theory: Mourinho wants his players to express themselves and be more free. He wants them to run channels and be able to think for themselves.

This is also strange. Looks the case for Martial, but then why has Mkhi been given such a hard time. He plays similar to Lingard (I personally think he is miles better than Lingard). His performances have been similar to Lingard and Rashford and certainly started somewhat similar to Pogba but was dropped immediately after a poor performance and did not find his way into the starting line up for months. Even now, Mourinho is not sure about his starting position and seems to prefer Lingard.

Then I thought maybe it was a mental thing and Mourinho wants players to be mentally strong,
Theory: Mourinho wants a certain level of maturity from his players. He wants them to be mentally strong and be able to sustain pressure.

But then Pogba has given terrible performances number of times and has problems dealing with pressure. His mentality was questioned and there is even a thread on it. But then, he has never ever been criticized and the Mourinho has gone out of his way to defend Pogba. He has never been dropped. Pogba has been given chance after chance and been allowed to make mistakes and find his pace in the main 11. He has been handled just the way any talented player should be handled. But the same has not been done for Martial, Shaw and Mkhi.
Also, Martial is pretty strong mentally as seen by his performances last season. He also scored in his first match against Liverpool.

Then I thought, maybe it is a defensive thing
Theory: Mourinho wants his players to contribute defensively and help out in defense.

But, both Martial and Mikhi make defensive contributions. I have seen them back a number of times trying to help the fullbacks and the midfielders in trying to win the ball. They get involved in defense whenever possible.

No theory seems to hold.

Martial looks quite similar to Zlatan, only thing is Martial has mostly played on the left. Zlatan has also been poor in some matches just the way Martial has, but Martial has always been subbed off after poor performances. When he has played well, he does not start the next match and has not been given a chance to build up on these performances.

For me, Mata ticks all the boxes. Mentally strong, moves the channels, does not lose his head when the going gets tough, listens to the manager, never complains. But at the start of the season, people can remember him being subbed off time and again even when he was the best player on the pitch. Every time a sub needed to be made, it was Mata. If Zlatan/Pogba/Rashford were having poor game, Mata got subbed. Only later when it became obvious that he is the most talented player did this stop.


The only reasoning I can come up with is this, and it is a little hard to digest:
Mourinho has some fixation with certain players and does not seem to fancy some. Maybe something about the player does not rub him right, maybe he does not like his style or maybe something completely different.
I like Mourinho and I am a fan of Martial, but I have got to admit that I find the handling of Martial rather strange. Mourinho has his own ways, and there is nothing we can do to make complete sense of his decisions. We will have to wait and see how this one pans out.

 

[Santoryo]

People being unwilling to give Mourinho some accountability for the drop in performance from not one, not 2 but 3 talented players whom performed better just last year is just stubborn.

Sure the players themselves will have some of the blames(which they constantly get in these boards) but so should Mourinho. It's quite ridiculous how some are just completely blaming the players while denying any criticisms toward Mourinho despite the latter having a clear history of failing to get the best of some of the most talented players he's worked with.

Miki and Martial came straight out from hit season performing excellently. Their previous managers never cited any problems with their workrate or commitment then suddenly they turned into these unwilling, non committed players some are painting them to be. That's clearly bs. There is more than one side of the story and unfortunately for them only Mou get to talk to the media while their side isn't heard, so people role with Mou's stories as gospels.

 

[Arthur Friedenreich]

In form he's a top 10 player in the world.
Never will give up on him.
Scary player.

 

[LoveFootball]

Out of interest, does this mean you don't think Jose is a great manager? Off topic I know .. so feel free not to answer.

My last post of the day as I only have 5, but I'll satisfy your curiosity!

Compared to SAF, Mourinho is an average manager (don't confuse manager and 1st team coach)!
Never heard ex players criticised SAF's management and he never been fired because he went in fight with some players! SAF always inspire respect from his ex players, even the ones he sold! For me, he was the greatest manager ever, reason why he's actually teaching management skills at Havard Univesity!

Let me put it clear! Mourinho is a great coach but an average manager! I am not impressed by his managerial skills! But that's my opinion!

Are you satisfied?

No because Messi and Ronaldo were model professionals who worked their arses off to be where they are now. Their attitude and commitment was and still is on a whole different level to what we are seeing from Martial currently.

And yet Mourinho managed to fall out with Ronaldo too at Madrid. If he was so professional and worked his arses off, why the fall out? So before criticising Martial and back the manager at 100%, think about the possibility it can be other things than attitude and commitment! Last season we didn't doubt about these 2 qualities but Jose is around, a manager who has the history of creating some buzz around the club, we turn on the players! Strange!

You honestly think Martial is consistent? A consistent player wouldn't be putting in the appalling performances Martial was putting in earlier this season, it's not as if Mourinho was playing him left back.

Didn't say that Martial was consistent! I did say that he was short of confidence and the culpable is Mourinho who created this unnecessary situation!

Pogba and Ibra have still given their all. They have done whatever the manager has asked of them. They aren't visibly sulking on the bench because Mourinho opted to bring on Young to replace an injured Shaw. When they have come on they haven't meandered around looking totally disinterested. That's why Mourinho has trusted them. And for what it's worth they have still performed at a far higher level than Martial has.

Pogba and Ibra are the darlings of the manager who always plays them and protect them when they have bad games! They are his players and he trust them, they play for him because they have to repay that trust!
This thing about Martial face expression have been discuss on here several times, I'll not debate on it.

Do you seriously think he's just attacking players for no reason? He's doing it to motivate the player. And you're massively overreacting to the criticism Jose has given by the way.

No, I don't think so! He may have his reasons but they are really not working because from all the players he did attack, no one is performing at his real level and we're struggling to get top 4.

Jose has over 25 trophies in his career, he's a fair bit bigger than Martial. Do you also not beleive United's philosophy also involves working your arse off for the team and showing full commitment to the manager and team? Why should Martial be able to put in half a shift when the rest of the team are expected to give their all?

How many trophies did LVG won before he came here only to fail miserably? What Mourinho won in his previous clubs mean feck all for me! I'll judge his time with us by what he'll achieve with Manchester United!
Martial has shown us already his talent and carried this team last season! Mourinho has shown nothing after he spent a mountain of money! He still have less points than LVG!


Yes Mhikitaryan isn't playing as well as last season. It's also incredibly well documented that he doesnt have great first seasons at clubs. Was Mourinho 'attacking' him from the moment he arrived or was he dropped because he wasn't performing? He's trying to get him back go the level he should be at and he's improved since he was dropped. Not to mention he came out and categorically agreed with Mourinho's decision.

Mkitharyan wasn't dropped because he wasn't performing! He was good in preseason and had some good cameos at the starting of the season, but was strangely dropped after that game against City.
He failed to adapt at his 1st season at Dortmund, can you tell us why you are assuming that it's well documented he doesn't have good 1st season?
Why are you praising Mourinho for Mkitharyan performance this season? He's not playing at his best but somehow you found the way to praise the manager for getting average performance from the best Bundesliga player?

Oh being a poor man manager is the reason he has won everything there is to win in the game? Have a word with yourself.

He may have won trophies, because he's a great coach playing a brand of football used by Greece, Portugal and Leicester to won trophies, but he's not a great manager! He's maybe a good tactician but not a great manager! A great manager is someone like Fergusson or Ancelloti, someone who inspire respect from his players, someone who knows how to handle different mentalities and who doesn't create unnecessary buzz around his team!

 

[Dobbs]

This is exactly what's confusing me. Martials good game has more to do with him playing centrally as a striker. There is absolutely no evidence we as fans have that they lack work ethic or anything with regards to their mentality.

People will complain saying that Martial doesn't run around enough at the wings but that is far from the truth - what we really want to see is him and all his other team mates score goals. Of course he is going to run more and play better as a striker - he knows exactly how to do that. How people assume it's mentality over tactics that has the rest of the squad bar Ibrahimovic scoring such minute number of goals is just too hard for me to understand.

Someone on another thread were attributing Arsenals poor campaigns to poor mentality. Sure that may be a part of it but they have much more fundamental flaws in tactical approach and players before you can begin to blame the mentality.

Either way a manager has to boost not all the mentality but the morale of their players. He might be doing one But he can't be helping the other.

Whatever the reasons it's just one game. There's no way you can draw from that any conclusion as to how good the management has been.

If had to guess though I'd agree with you. He was playing centrally and that bit of freedom suits him. Or it could have just been a good player having a good game. He could easily have a bad one next time.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Did he really play any different than he usually does (on his good game) ?

Can't help but think the only way he did start was because there was almost literally no one else.

Sky sports said he made the most sprints in the whole match. He was noticeably fighting more with the defenders and running at them with more aggression. 1 point he flattened one of their CB's in a 50/50 challenge, can't remember him ever doing that before.

It was mainly the work ethic though. Never stood still and looked lazy.

 

[ivaldo]

I really don't get this. He's been poor for most of the season after being great last season. How much more of a deterioration is needed?

The only thing I can think is that you put that deterioration solely down to Martial. As you have with Shaw and Mkhitaryan. Then after being left out for long periods of time you put any up turn in form, even if it's just one game (as is the case with Martial),down to Jose.

Foreign teenager in second season syndrome shocker.

Mourinho didn't call out or drop Martial at the start of the season. Unless Martial can predict the future how is that down to Jose 'attacking' him or treating him unfairly in the media? Jose went down this route because Martial's attitude stank, you're getting your actions and reactions mixed up here.

Martials sporadic performances are getting better and better in this thread. The majority of his performances were between below average to terrible.

That one game as in Martial case saw him work harder and show a higher level of commitment than we have seen from him. He worked harder and put himself in for 50/50s he otherwise would not have done so. Are you telling me thats just coincidence. Are you saying Mhkitaryan was lying when he publicly backed Jose's treatment of him? Are we saying there's absolutely no basis to the comments Shaw had recently come out with?

 

[Dobbs]

Foreign teenager in second season syndrome shocker.

Mourinho didn't call out or drop Martial at the start of the season. Unless Martial can predict the future how is that down to Jose 'attacking' him or treating him unfairly in the media? Jose went down this route because Martial's attitude stank, you're getting your actions and reactions mixed up here.

Martials sporadic performances are getting better and better in this thread. The majority of his performances were between below average to terrible.

That one game as in Martial case saw him work harder and show a higher level of commitment than we have seen from him. He worked harder and put himself in for 50/50s he otherwise would not have done so. Are you telling me thats just coincidence. Are you saying Mhkitaryan was lying when he publicly backed Jose's treatment of him? Are we saying there's absolutely no basis to the comments Shaw had recently come out with?

Hey maybe it was down to being dropped and criticsed. Is this where we're at though. A player has to be frozen out then sporadically brought in so that 10 games from the end he gives us one good game. That doesn't read like a win to me.

Here's a question for you. You asked what evidence is there Mourinho's approach hasn't worked. I cited nearly a full season of being in and out, disjointed performances, after being our best player last year.

If that isn't proof then what in your opinion would be evidence that Mourinho's approach hasn't worked?