Angel Gomes

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For me he is already good enough to be getting first team minutes let alone be playing at u17 level. Should be a squad player instead of someone like Mctominlay whose probably getting minutes because he happens to be tall.

Really annoying how every new player we are linked with - their height seems to be queried every time - which makes you think it'll be impossible for someone like Gomes to properly break through under Jose.
 
Raees said:
For me he is already good enough to be getting first team minutes let alone be playing at u17 level. Should be a squad player instead of someone like Mctominlay whose probably getting minutes because he happens to be tall.

Really annoying how every new player we are linked with - their height seems to be queried every time - which makes you think it'll be impossible for someone like Gomes to properly break through under Jose.
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Yeah but somehow Mata and Mkhitaryan both plays every game rather than tall Rashford and Martial.

Valencia and Young are our fullbacks rather than Darmian and Blind.

Finally, Jones is our first choice CB than Smalling.

This preference for tall players is media created bs, shame people lap it up so easily.
 
Raees said:
For me he is already good enough to be getting first team minutes let alone be playing at u17 level. Should be a squad player instead of someone like Mctominlay whose probably getting minutes because he happens to be tall.

Really annoying how every new player we are linked with - their height seems to be queried every time - which makes you think it'll be impossible for someone like Gomes to properly break through under Jose.
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He's not even making the U17 First Team right now for England. Just calm down with overreactions.

Anyways I'm pretty sure if makes it in the first team then many will start questioning his talent, saying that he's a level below many other European starlets and say that he's only in the first team due to him being a localite basically aka Rashford.
 
KM said:
He's not even making the U17 First Team right now for England. Just calm down with overreactions.
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? He's captain of the side. Played most of the group games. No one is saying he would be a starter here or even a long term player here but when a kid is that gifted you have to make them feel special and that there is a pathway to the first team.

If they then fail to make the most of it - so be it, but I disagree with making it too hard for young talented players like Gomes or a Pogba to break through. In the games I was watching there was nothing to suggest Sancho was a far more superior player to Gomes.. so if one is knocking on the door at first team football and the other is still at u17 level you can see why his head might be turned.

Instead of saying suck it up, you're still a kid we need to be aware of his mindset and try and work with him - make him feel wanted, give him opportunities and see if he can grasp them. He's a special talent - doesn't mean that will guarantee he becomes a player but for him and for us, it's worth indulging to a degree to give players like that a chance to become overnight stars .. some will go the way of a Januzaj but then some might go the way of Rashford. Keeping them wrapped in cotton wool doesn't achieve the square root of feck all.. see Chelsea who have constantly wasted all their good youngsters and just don't know how to fast track players into first team football.
 
He was a sub in the first two matches and only played the third match because it was inconsequential. Isn't starting in the knockout matches, again I'm not undermining him but he's not good enough to be a regular in our squad right now. McTominay has done very well in the cameos that he has got, I'm not sure why people think he's crap, I know people like to shit on Mourinho on this forum but the bloke knows something about football.

Just saying that McTominay is in the squad because of his height is underrating his managerial mind and overrating yours.
 
pascell said:
Of course he won't be as good as Messi but he wouldn't be a bad replacement if he fulfils his potential. He'd be a great fit at Barca or Real.


Yeah his technical style would be a perfect fit for either team, I think both will be in for him to sign a pre contract come January.
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He's currently not in the England u17 team but you think he's good enough to replace Messi :lol::lol:
 
Raees said:
? He's captain of the side. Played most of the group games. No one is saying he would be a starter here or even a long term player here but when a kid is that gifted you have to make them feel special and that there is a pathway to the first team.

If they then fail to make the most of it - so be it, but I disagree with making it too hard for young talented players like Gomes or a Pogba to break through. In the games I was watching there was nothing to suggest Sancho was a far more superior player to Gomes.. so if one is knocking on the door at first team football and the other is still at u17 level you can see why his head might be turned.

Instead of saying suck it up, you're still a kid we need to be aware of his mindset and try and work with him - make him feel wanted, give him opportunities and see if he can grasp them. He's a special talent - doesn't mean that will guarantee he becomes a player but for him and for us, it's worth indulging to a degree to give players like that a chance to become overnight stars .. some will go the way of a Januzaj but then some might go the way of Rashford. Keeping them wrapped in cotton wool doesn't achieve the square root of feck all.. see Chelsea who have constantly wasted all their good youngsters and just don't know how to fast track players into first team football.
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Started one game in the group stages after they'd already qualified and got hooked after an hour. Didn't make the team for first knockout game despite Sancho heading back to Dortmund.
 
SteveW said:
He's currently not in the England u17 team but you think he's good enough to replace Messi :lol::lol:
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And you think that's something to judge his potential off? There's plenty of different factors in a young players development, not just that he's not currently picked for his age group for internationals and iirc Gomes isn't fully fit after injury, hence why he's not been picked.
 
SteveW said:
Started one game in the group stages after they'd already qualified and got hooked after an hour. Didn't make the team for first knockout game despite Sancho heading back to Dortmund.
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He was carrying a knock into the tournament which is why he didn't start initially. He came on at about 60mins in the first game and at half time in the second game, Hudson-Odoi, who he replaced, wasn't injured either. He did start in the first knockout game against Japan, after starting in the last group game. He wasn't great and gassed after 60mins and was taken off. I'm guessing that the US game was used as an opportunity to give him a rest after England were completely comfortable against them and to give minutes to more fringe players like Kirby. I wouldn't be surprised if he started the semi-final.

He has two goals in the tournament so far and a couple of assists IIRC. He has created plenty of chances too. Japan was the only game where he disappointed but he was clearly struggling with the conditions by the end.
 
SteveW said:
Started one game in the group stages after they'd already qualified and got hooked after an hour. Didn't make the team for first knockout game despite Sancho heading back to Dortmund.
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Fair enough. Any explanation behind lack of game time?
 
Raees said:
Fair enough. Any explanation behind lack of game time?
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He missed the Euros in the summer and the stand in 10 Hudson-Odoi was excellent in a run to the final. Coming into this tournament he had a slight knock and had reduced minutes sharing with Hudson-Odoi initially. He has struggled with the conditions a bit and was suffering badly by the end of the first knockout game against Japan. I think he was rested against the US. If he doesn't start against Brazil or in the final if they make it then it is fair to say he is out of favour.

This England side is exceptionally talented specifically in terms of depth where there are really good talents on the bench. Hudson-Odoi is one of the best prospects at Chelsea which is arguably the best academy in the world. He has been playing u23 football since 16.
 
pascell said:
And you think that's something to judge his potential off? There's plenty of different factors in a young players development, not just that he's not currently picked for his age group for internationals and iirc Gomes isn't fully fit after injury, hence why he's not been picked.
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I rate him highly but the odds of any young player being good enough to be a good replacement for the best player of all time are extremely low. I find it hilarious that anyone would just casually throw that out about a kid who hasn't done much yet
 
Classical Mechanic said:
He was carrying a knock into the tournament which is why he didn't start initially. He came on at about 60mins in the first game and at half time in the second game, Hudson-Odoi, who he replaced, wasn't injured either. He did start in the first knockout game against Japan, after starting in the last group game. He wasn't great and gassed after 60mins and was taken off. I'm guessing that the US game was used as an opportunity to give him a rest after England were completely comfortable against them and to give minutes to more fringe players like Kirby. I wouldn't be surprised if he started the semi-final.

He has two goals in the tournament so far and a couple of assists IIRC. He has created plenty of chances too. Japan was the only game where he disappointed but he was clearly struggling with the conditions by the end.
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Dont get me wrong. He's a cracking little player and I'm surprised he's not playing. But if he's already first team material for United he be a guaranteed starter for England at u17. People just need to calm down a bit and let him develop.
 
Sammyjunn said:
Quite reminiscent of the Pogba situation in a way, great young talent of whom we all and the club know he is a great talent. But the talent seems a bit impatient and might look for other options. If he does well then people criticise United for ''letting him go, how could they be so stupid'' whilst this isnt really the case.
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It is yeah, at least with Pogba’s situation he witnessed fullbacks play in midfield, retired players being called out of retirement and many injuries. It really made sense for him to leave as there was no opportunity. Angel however got his debut at 16.
 
SteveW said:
I rate him highly but the odds of any young player being good enough to be a good replacement for the best player of all time are extremely low. I find it hilarious that anyone would just casually throw that out about a kid who hasn't done much yet
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I take it you didn't read my previous comment about Gomes replacing Messi? I didn't claim Gomes to be a like for like replacement for Messi, just a good replacement if he fulfils his potential, which he would be.

If there's never going to be a good enough replacement for Messi then Barca will go downhill. But imo there'll always be a replacement for every player, Neymar was supposed to be Messi' heir and he got replaced easily by someone with just as much potential in Dembele.

Football is constantly evolving with new managers bringing new systems and ethos to the game, every player will be replaced with someone who's more than capable of coming up with the goods, it doesn't always mean it's a like for like, look at when we replaced Keane with Carrick.
 
MyOnlySolskjaer said:
It is yeah, at least with Pogba’s situation he witnessed fullbacks play in midfield, retired players being called out of retirement and many injuries. It really made sense for him to leave as there was no opportunity. Angel however got his debut at 16.
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In Pogba situation he came back from a long term injury and wasnt playing his best football, yet Fergie started to take him in the matchday squad regularly at age 18, which indicates how highly he rated him.
 
Had the absolute pleasure of watching a very talented young U17 side for 2 matches.

Gomes really is a special player similar to Morrison in many ways but without the height. If he doesn't make it with us we'll be kicking ourselves. He's like a better version of Sterling and isn't your "pace," merchant.

I trust in Nicky Butt sorting this.
 
If he does do a Sancho and does end up moving on, i for one wouldn't blame him. Pogba did it and went on to become one of the best players in the world and the most expensive player in the world by doing that, so right decision.

End of the day you've got to look after no1 in life, football clubs do that, when they no longer have use for you, your traded in for a newer model.
 
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pascell said:
I take it you didn't read my previous comment about Gomes replacing Messi? I didn't claim Gomes to be a like for like replacement for Messi, just a good replacement if he fulfils his potential, which he would be.

If there's never going to be a good enough replacement for Messi then Barca will go downhill. But imo there'll always be a replacement for every player, Neymar was supposed to be Messi' heir and he got replaced easily by someone with just as much potential in Dembele.

Football is constantly evolving with new managers bringing new systems and ethos to the game, every player will be replaced with someone who's more than capable of coming up with the goods, it doesn't always mean it's a like for like, look at when we replaced Keane with Carrick.
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Let's see if he turns out to be good enough for United first. Next couple of years will tell a lot
 
pascell said:
I think he'll go to Barca personally, he'd be much more suited to a technical league. He'd be a great replacement for Messi.
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He doesn't play like Messi even at youth level. If you had to liken his playstyle to someone it would be Iniesta. A Messi type player is someone more like former Barca youth player Lee Seung Woo who is very aggressive and wanting to dribble past players or attack by doing 1-2s very quickly to score. Gomes is much more patient a player at the moment.

Outrageous technique Gomes has. People need to remember that he's tiny right now. Even Hudson Odoi who is good on a technical level has an advantage at youth level over Gomes because he's physically superior at the moment. Doesn't necessarily mean he's the superior talent. I believe Gomes has the best technique of all the u17 players at the moment including Foden who is also technically gifted.

Gomes problem right now is that he's not finding the ball enough to make impact consistently nor is he trusting his superior technique to aggressively create chances. He's purely using his technique to keep possession, and turn on defenders. On the other hand, Foden is making more use of his great technique by going after defenders and trusting his technique will get him through or create something. Through ball ability, technique, balance, and dribbling, Gomes does not lose to anybody at his level. He just needs to get bigger and better apply his qualities.

So when people criticize him for International football, I feel like you're taking it way too seriously. Since when do you judge footballers on international football?
 
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In Rainbows said:
He doesn't play like Messi even at youth level. If you had to liken his playstyle to someone it would be Iniesta. A Messi type player is someone more like former Barca youth player Lee Seung Woo who is very aggressive and wanting to dribble past players or attack by doing 1-2s very quickly to score. Gomes is much more patient a player at the moment.

Outrageous technique Gomes has. People need to remember that he's tiny right now. Even Hudson Odoi who is good on a technical level has an advantage at youth level over Gomes because he's physically superior at the moment. Doesn't necessarily mean he's the superior talent. I believe Gomes has the best technique of all the u17 players at the moment including Foden who is also technically gifted.

Gomes problem right now is that he's not finding the ball enough to make impact consistently nor is he trusting his superior technique to aggressively create chances. He's purely using his technique to keep possession, and turn on defenders. On the other hand, Foden is making more use of his great technique by going after defenders and trusting his technique will get him through or create something. Through ball ability, technique, balance, and dribbling, Gomes does not lose to anybody at his level. He just needs to get bigger and better apply his qualities.

So when people criticize him for International football, I feel like you're taking it way too seriously. Since when do you judge footballers on international football?
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I think international football is a good way to judge players to show maturity and tactical awareness etc. I think Gomes is lacking in both. Not maturity in terms of attitude, I mean in terms of footballing IQ.
It looks to me like he can't comprehend the system that Sancho, Foden, Hudson-Odoi perform so well together and I'm pretty sure I know why:
Gomes has always been the focal point at United and the best player in his teams by some distance, expecting everything to go though him and never really having to work hard to stand out from his peers. This England team however has other sensational talents and I don't think he is comfortable being another cog in a system. I do blame the United development culture of individualism and personal skill over the pass and move collectivism that other top academies employ. A lot of it is out of Gomes' control though tbf, as every youth follower has to admit that Chelsea and City have far more quality in depth at U16 and below levels than we have had over the last 5 or so years and so that has to an extent forced Gomes to be a focal attacking point rather than a team based cog in the system. Gomes seems to be a relatively humble and down to earth lad but the individualistic culture at United is not a good thing for a developing young player IMO and perhaps the last old school academy element that needs to be wiped out. Not only in terms of footballing development but in terms of egotism as well. It's not a coincidence that our biggest talents have a tendency for attitude problems and poor work ethic.
 
Prodigal7 said:
I think international football is a good way to judge players to show maturity and tactical awareness etc. I think Gomes is lacking in both. Not maturity in terms of attitude, I mean in terms of footballing IQ.
It looks to me like he can't comprehend the system that Sancho, Foden, Hudson-Odoi perform so well together and I'm pretty sure I know why:
Gomes has always been the focal point at United and the best player in his teams by some distance, expecting everything to go though him and never really having to work hard to stand out from his peers. This England team however has other sensational talents and I don't think he is comfortable being another cog in a system. I do blame the United development culture of individualism and personal skill over the pass and move collectivism that other top academies employ. A lot of it is out of Gomes' control though tbf, as every youth follower has to admit that Chelsea and City have far more quality in depth at U16 and below levels than we have had over the last 5 or so years and so that has to an extent forced Gomes to be a focal attacking point rather than a team based cog in the system. Gomes seems to be a relatively humble and down to earth lad but the individualistic culture at United is not a good thing for a developing young player IMO and perhaps the last old school academy element that needs to be wiped out. Not only in terms of footballing development but in terms of egotism as well. It's not a coincidence that our biggest talents have a tendency for attitude problems and poor work ethic.
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I think you are over thinking it a bit. For me Gomes has slowed the game down to often for England at the world cup, he just needs to play a bit quicker and take a few more risks to fit into the team. It feels like he wants to retain possession for the sake of it at inopportune times. I also think his conditioning has been poor, which is a concern, if it is his natural fitness levels. If you have watched Foden in this tournament he has been able to bomb up and down for most of all the games.

I think he will start tomorrow though. I base this on the England manager saying there is no first eleven and the teams are put out to the specific challenge that each opposition side poses. In the 0-0 warm up game against Brazil last month England were the better side and Gomes started and was involved in a few good moves.
 
I think a lot of people are going overboard about him being dropped or not fitting into the team when the reality is that he's had a knock & his game time is being managed
 
jb8521 said:
I think a lot of people are going overboard about him being dropped or not fitting into the team when the reality is that he's had a knock & his game time is being managed
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It seems he is struggling more than others with the weather as well.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I think you are over thinking it a bit. For me Gomes has slowed the game down to often for England at the world cup, he just needs to play a bit quicker and take a few more risks to fit into the team. It feels like he wants to retain possession for the sake of it at inopportune times. I also think his conditioning has been poor, which is a concern, if it is his natural fitness levels. If you have watched Foden in this tournament he has been able to bomb up and down for most of all the games.

I think he will start tomorrow though. I base this on the England manager saying there is no first eleven and the teams are put out to the specific challenge that each opposition side poses. In the 0-0 warm up game against Brazil last month England were the better side and Gomes started and was involved in a few good moves.
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Think it was last year too where Gomes was the one who scored a screamer against Brazil in a 3-1 loss.
 
KM said:
He was a sub in the first two matches and only played the third match because it was inconsequential. Isn't starting in the knockout matches, again I'm not undermining him but he's not good enough to be a regular in our squad right now. McTominay has done very well in the cameos that he has got, I'm not sure why people think he's crap, I know people like to shit on Mourinho on this forum but the bloke knows something about football.

Just saying that McTominay is in the squad because of his height is underrating his managerial mind and overrating yours.
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Off topic but I really don't see anything good about McTominay. Whether it's in the first team or U23s, whether he was in midfield or up front, he's never impressed. I hope he goes on this have a good career but I don't think he'll ever be Premier League level.
 
Hopefully he'll get back in today against Brazil. Odd that he's out of the team having been a main player in this team up to recently.
 
He needs to be sensible and stick around. He's incredibly young.

Seems to be very close to Lingard, so I'm sure Jesse is in his ear telling him to be calm and patient.
 
Yeah, he has to go through the stages he's still very tiny, no need to rush him despite his talent.
 
He needs to be patient, but not too patient. Not every player needs to spend a season or two in the reserves, then go on loan to the Championship or whatever before getting to play.

He’s 17 now, so I’d say realistically a year away from getting a proper chance if he’s indeed a special talent.
 
KM said:
He was a sub in the first two matches and only played the third match because it was inconsequential. Isn't starting in the knockout matches, again I'm not undermining him but he's not good enough to be a regular in our squad right now. McTominay has done very well in the cameos that he has got, I'm not sure why people think he's crap, I know people like to shit on Mourinho on this forum but the bloke knows something about football.

Just saying that McTominay is in the squad because of his height is underrating his managerial mind and overrating yours.
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Spot on!

Everyone on here is entitled to their opinion but suggesting that professionals get match time because of their height is ridiculous and is a unfair criticism of Mourinho who might know a little bit more about football management than people on here...and McTominay who has worked bloody hard at his game and deserves his chance.

I thought he was very good tonight and one of our better performers.

That's why he is in the squad.
 
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