There is no bigger picture here. Either become a Bielsa , neutral fan favorite and get beating every now and then or be a semi decent manager who knows when to make tweaks.Utd fans want him to abandon his principles and have us play like an FA Cup underdog as it'll make them feel better about ten Hag.
He won't change though. He'll play aggressive and on the front foot. We'll probably lose, may even take a beating but Ange sees the bigger picture. We've smash-and-grabbed our way to wins over City in the past but that's not going to take you anywhere in the long-term.
Yes but then we ensured CL football. It wasn't pretty but it was functional and there were signs on improvement across a lot of the team. I will change my viewpoint if we continue to play like this when everyone is back but I expect, particularly when Martinez returns, there'll be more control and less chaos.Tell me I'm wrong but as far as I'm concerned, ten Hag resorted to that kind of football two games into his reign. Nearly 18 months and hundreds of millions spent later, the football you play now is essentially a continuation of the previous failed regimes.
Utd have a stronger squad than Spurs, you have more match-winners, you should be doing better than a Spurs team undergoing a complete overhaul. We'll see though. Maybe those one in a million overheads and full backs sticking them in the top corner from 30 yards is sustainable and all part of the plan.
I am sorry but you're arguing in bad faith with your selective stats.It’s not close if it’s covered. They’ve still lost those players, they aren’t at full strength.
Only United have scored less than Spurs in the top 8 and that’s really because Rashford hasn’t hit form. The trade off wasn’t, isnt and will never be worth it with that squad.
Lose next week and it’s 4 losses in a row with tough games v a similar West Ham and Newcastle away after that. This is madness and the manager isn’t doing his job properly simply because he’s abandoning his defence as some sort of game plan but it’s every week so it’s commendable.
Come on, this entire thread has an undertone of ten Hag about it because you and other posters see the praise Ange has had as an attack on your manager. A few losses and the thread is filled with posts dunking on him with delight whilst ignoring any kind of context.
Tell me I'm wrong but as far as I'm concerned, ten Hag resorted to that kind of football two games into his reign. Nearly 18 months and hundreds of millions spent later, the football you play now is essentially a continuation of the previous failed regimes.
Utd have a stronger squad than Spurs, you have more match-winners, you should be doing better than a Spurs team undergoing a complete overhaul. We'll see though. Maybe those one in a million overheads and full backs sticking them in the top corner from 30 yards is sustainable and all part of the plan.
You know we can see you failed comprehension in school. In my first post you quote I very clearly say they wont be at the top by the end of the season. Nowhere in those quotes am I claiming he is going to do anything like win the league or have a huge trophy success. Thats what my last post was about, people making bad faith arguments.
Its Spurs best start since 1965, thats true but doesnt claim he is going to win anything. Lots said he would struggle, even with a couple of losses he clearly isnt.
Do better, thats just cringeworthy from you.
I’ve not nitpicked a thing, I’m using the basic stats that’s relevant to every side in the league.I am sorry but you're arguing in bad faith with your selective stats.
Tottenham only 2 goals less than Arsenal who top the table, but 9 goals more than us!!! Tottenham is 8 goals less than current top scoring team (Man City). Using your logic, you have to go down to 13th (Crystal Palace) to find a team who score less than us (yet Nottingham Forest at 14th place score the same amount of goal at us). The lowest scoring team in the league is only 6 goals less than us!!!
If you want to nitpick then about Aston Villa being not at full strength for proper replaced long term their injured, then the same applied to Tottenham before current 3 losses, Bentancur is a key player who had been out recovering from a long injury. Sessegnon was starter last season. He is out injured since forever too. Both got replaced with new (stop gap) transfer just like Mings and Buendia. Perisic who low keyed got 11 assist in PL and CL last season for Tottenham (got 2 assist this season already) got season ending injury after Reguilon was sent on loan. Perisic is not exactly replaced. So what now? Tottenham was not at full strength, so what they did was even more impressive?!
You talk as if Tottenham is having GD problem where their attack and defense are both trash by bringing us into the conversation for point for comparison. If Tottenham who only conceded 1 more than us only after shifting 8 goals in last 3 defeats missing players in the defense (same old excuse), it's pretty much saying our defense is as trash on top of significant worse attack? Why don't we try a better gameplan against teams from top half of the table if it's easy? We're yet to get victory this season against those kind of teams and it's a current issue since latter half of last season, if it's commend that you're craving for us?
City and Newcastle are probably losses. Its going to be interesting to see what he chooses to do against City
That wasnt even the point I was making that you replied to begin with. Also i was talking about Ange a long time before the Spurs job so for me he isnt a shiny new toy. You love that search function so go check out the Celtic thread. Cheer up chuckles.No the whole point is you used a new shiny toy as an excuse to bash the manager of a club you support. It's pathetic behaviour and that's what people are laughing at you for
City is leading the scoring stats is why. City is struggling? Because they drew against tougher oppositions in the most recent 2 games? Or not at the top of the table at this stage after playing 13 games, like previous three seasons? Or eliminated from League Cup early by Newcastle who also went to eliminate us?I’ve not nitpicked a thing, I’m using the basic stats that’s relevant to every side in the league.
City are struggling, I’m not sure what quoting them does.
We routinely beat the top sides last season, look at our home record against them?
They’ve conceded more goals than our second choice defence that we’ve had all season, sometimes third defence and even now nobody has kept more clean sheets than us.
From what I see they only have one injury in defence? Romero is bout because he’s a shocking player with no discipline unless I’ve missed somebody?
I can see you trying to downplay that because it goes against Ange but that’s fecking shocking. You could easily say we conceded 8 goals in a 3 game span as well so, again, the trade off isn’t worth it.
All this trying to explain away why throwing everyone into attack and allowing every team to easily counter leading to 3 defeats in a row is a good thing despite the goals for and against not adding up to be worth it.City is leading the scoring stats is why. City is struggling? Because they drew against tougher oppositions in the most recent 2 games? Or not at the top of the table at this stage after playing 13 games, like previous three seasons? Or eliminated from League Cup early by Newcastle who also went to eliminate us?
Onana may have 5 clean sheet joint top in the league, but Arsenal had more clean sheet as a team (they rotate GKs and Rays only played in 8 of them, so Rays missed their latest game and another clean sheet due to loan clause against Brentford)
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/clean_sheet
And it's not like we're clear off the supposed bad defensive teams who scored more either.
You should ask yourself why did you bring us, and the top 8 into the discussion in the first place?
Your basic stats is proven to be selective by implying Tottenham attacking potent is only better using a small scope leaving our the numbers. Only 7 teams scored less than us the league and only 6 goals between us and the lowest scoring teams. That's less than the gap between our goal tally and supposed only better than us in top 8 Tottenham's.
We no longer a sure bet to beat team at home, let alone top teams. We got 5 home defeats in all competitions this season already, on top of underwhelming away record against last season top 8. It's not like conceding heavily was not our issue in not so distant form run.
Who bigged up Tottenham defense? Me?The one predicted their luck would balance out and they would get punished before these 3 games? What's so now we have great defensive record after the clean sheet against bottom half teams of the table? What is our starter defensive line again? The one with Martinez and AwB which were available from the run till Arsenal game where we're as capable of conceded goal for fun. It doesn't look like Varane is stater anymore. By your nitpicking logic, we only truly missed Shaw after the first two games. So why didn't we try to score more if it's easy to play attack football to offset the defensive fragility (your original point)?
It's ironic for you to bring us into this discussion only for it to turn into a race to the bottom.
Arsenal was our 4th game of the season (again with you recalling thing incorrectly). Conceded 7 in 3 games even after luckily kept a clean sheet against Wolves. Why the first few games of the season should be disregarded, but cherry picked their small sample at the other part of the sample? What kind of argument is that? James Maddison already carried an injury before they played Liverpool. (Son also did, which was why he got subbed up in second half when they're trying to win against then still 10 men Liverpool). I am well aware of Martinez, and our circumstances. We excused Martinez issue, so now what? Other teams don't have underlying injury, fitness issue at all? Managers take the risk and it blew into their faces, it's on them. Fair game right?All this trying to explain away why throwing everyone into attack and allowing every team to easily counter leading to 3 defeats in a row is a good thing despite the goals for and against not adding up to be worth it.
What you’re trying to say is insane. I never said we had a great defence, I’m comparing Spurs to an average to bad defence that has been shit on by everybody all season so far. Meanwhile Spurs have one injury back there and missed out on another CB for 3 games and 1 FB because of their own stupidity and ill discipline.
Plus Arsenal was the third fecking game in and Martinez was playing through with painkillers in a foot that needed surgery.
It’s mental the hill you’re dying on here. But as long as Ange has got his principles as they continue to lose or make games as hard as it can be to win then good for him I suppose.
We’re talking about a guy that said he’d still give it ago if they go down to 5 men. Of course he’s going to attack city. And you ain’t scoring against them unless you do. What good does sitting back do? Just invites pressure onto you and city will break the deadlock they always do.City and Newcastle are probably losses. Its going to be interesting to see what he chooses to do against City
We’ve had all sorts going on behind the scenes. I don’t think many managers can deal with that aswell as pick up results like we have been doing. We’ve had a mare of a season so far apparently… meanwhile you’re having the season of your life’s yet if you look at the table you’ll find out we’re only 2 pts behind you. Only 6 behind top. We’ll have this discussion again at the end of the season…Utd have a stronger squad than Spurs, you have more match-winners, you should be doing better than a Spurs team undergoing a complete overhaul. We'll see though. Maybe those one in a million overheads and full backs sticking them in the top corner from 30 yards is sustainable and all part of the plan.
A lot of insecurity being shown in this thread.
He went toe to toe v Real Madrid with Celtic.
It's more like people just compare our manager to any managers with an in form team nowadays because we're so stagnated and more often than not we find ourselves to be rival of higher mid table, top 4 contenders like Tottenham. Since Poch time there, there is a risk that we may lose out CL qualification to Tottenham. Before that nobody cared about Rednapps, AvB, Tim Sherwood back then.I dont know why every Spurs manager gets compared to the United manager. Poch was the main one but Ange has been compared to EtH here and even on sky for some reason.
I think Ange has done a really good job so far but we'll have to wait and see if he succeeds. I don't think we can say much more than that.
Do you think the injuries are bad luck, or a by-product of how you play?Bentancur out for 2-3 months now.
Half expecting Son to get struck down by lightning at this rate.
IMO it's bad luck in Bentacur case. It was wild challenge from Cash iirc. Just came back from a long term last season ender injury. Another freak injury when he himself went into a tackle only to come out seriously hurtDo you think the injuries are bad luck, or a by-product of how you play?
Just more excuses for what everyone knows is going to happenWe’re talking about a guy that said he’d still give it ago if they go down to 5 men. Of course he’s going to attack city. And you ain’t scoring against them unless you do. What good does sitting back do? Just invites pressure onto you and city will break the deadlock they always do.
Well how do you score against a team if you defend with 11 men? Teams in the past few years have been scared of attacking city so when teams finally do attack them they have no answers because they’re not use to it. They ain’t as good as they was last season. If Ange changes his tactics and they get beat there fans will moan and be like why did you change it when we could have beat them. But if he changes his tactics and win then he becomes a genius so no matter which way you look at it there’s gonna be some negativity.Just more excuses for what everyone knows is going to happen
City have won 3 out of the last 8 domestic games. There’s no excuse for not looking at that and adapting to what’s working against them. This oh well they’re going to score anyway let’s go balls out is insane but fair play to big Ange for ensuring a tonking
Thanks for this.IMO it's bad luck in Bentacur case. It was wild challenge from Cash iirc. Just came back from a long term last season ender injury. Another freak injury when he himself went into a tackle only to come out seriously hurt
They should have plenty of rest for recovery time with no European football and early League Cup exit. Most of their current players were not as pushed as other teams going deep/fighting till the end in competitions last season.
Richarlison had niggling injuries since last season. Sessegnon is injury prone and his long term injury was also from last season. James Maddison's ankle injury is likely contact/accident inflicted injury. He did carry this injury for a while when I look at Tottenham team news from months ago. Seems like a strong contact occured during Chelsea game further damaged his ankle. Perisic, Solomon got serious injuries during training which also indicates freak accident/contact injuries instead of fatigue muscle injuries like their Dutch CB harmstring injury. Son, Ben Davies, Udogie short term issues are regular injury most teams face.
Nottingham Forest W Newcastle(League Cup) L Wolves L Arsenal L Brighton W United W Bournemouth W Chelsea D Liverpool DJust more excuses for what everyone knows is going to happen
City have won 3 out of the last 8 domestic games. There’s no excuse for not looking at that and adapting to what’s working against them. This oh well they’re going to score anyway let’s go balls out is insane but fair play to big Ange for ensuring a tonking
I am sorry but you're arguing in bad faith with your selective stats.
Tottenham only 2 goals less than Arsenal who top the table, but 9 goals more than us!!! Tottenham is 8 goals less than current top scoring team (Man City). Using your logic, you have to go down to 13th (Crystal Palace) to find a team who score less than us (yet Nottingham Forest at 14th place score the same amount of goal at us). The lowest scoring team in the league is only 6 goals less than us!!!
If you want to nitpick then about Aston Villa being not at full strength for proper replaced long term their injured, then the same applied to Tottenham before current 3 losses, Bentancur is a key player who had been out recovering from a long injury. Sessegnon was starter last season. He is out injured since forever too. Both got replaced with new (stop gap) transfer just like Mings and Buendia. Perisic who low keyed got 11 assist in PL and CL last season for Tottenham (got 2 assist this season already) got season ending injury after Reguilon was sent on loan. Perisic is not exactly replaced. So what now? Tottenham was not at full strength, so what they did was even more impressive?!
You talk as if Tottenham is having GD problem where their attack and defense are both trash by bringing us into the conversation for point for comparison. If Tottenham who only conceded 1 more than us only after shifting 8 goals in last 3 defeats missing players in the defense (same old excuse), it's pretty much saying our defense is as trash on top of significant worse attack? Why don't we try a better gameplan against teams from top half of the table if it's easy? We're yet to get victory this season against those kind of teams and it's a current issue since latter half of last season, if it's commend that you're craving for us?
I didn’t include Europe because European nights are a different beat and this is the best league in the world.Nottingham Forest W Newcastle(League Cup) L Wolves L Arsenal L Brighton W United W Bournemouth W Chelsea D Liverpool D
What we learned from it? Praying Rodri being sent off/ missing the games through suspension, or Pep resting key players like against Newcastle in League Cup game (again with cherry picking a League Cup game while conveniently ignoring CL games in between, and disregarding previous 5 perfect league result, to form "struggling" form narrative), so as to to beat them? Having a strong team with some options from the bench to spare like Liverpool and some luck to get a point? Or going blow for blow with them like Chelsea did to offset their defensive fragility, which is not very different from Tottenham. Or the tactic from 3 (4) teams that got defeated?
Why did us, Brighton, Bournemouth not take Newcastle Wolves Arsenal example if it were so easy? We should have done better when City's form read as 3 "domestic" consecutive defeat sandwiched between 2 wins in 5 games, right?
Man City's "struggling" form has nothing to do with playing tough oppositions in this order? If offered, how many team wouldn't take the result against all these teams like City? In our case trading a 0-3 defeat for 0-1 defeat in League Cup against dame opposition doesn't sound cringe!!!
He got a lot of credit for that too at the time. He’s one of the only managers I ever see get great acclaim for not being pragmatic and sending his side out to get tanked.
if you recall the first half they were the better team and should have been ahead, they didn't take their chances and at that level you get punished as they were in the 2nd half.
Now divided on this guy. On the one hand he's got his team playing wriggly fear, on the other he was lucky not to concede 8.
City hit the post, the crossbar, Haaland missed a sitter and that weird call at the end.
I mean, it’s City at the Etihad, they are going to create, it’s just what they do.
Thought that was an admirable performance considering the circumstances, struggled a bit first half, but thought they played better 2nd.
I always try to think if that was my team would I be content with that performance and result, and I would have with what I seen.
I think it was a good tactical switch to bring Hojbjerg on at half time for Gil and tweak Lo Celso's position.
I dont think Spurs could just sit back and defend all match Conte style with Davies and Royal as your CB's. Davies is ok I guess, not good, the less said about Royal as a CB the better.
I just noticed Vicario played 12 long balls, maybe a bit of a shift for big Ange in that not every time they are playing out from the back.
Is he still a fraud or is he the messiah again? It's hard to keep up with RedCafe trends.
