André Onana | signed for United | On a flight to NYC

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I appreciate the sincere reply. Better passing out of the back is inherently a good thing but there's really no correlation between better passing out of the back and good chance creation, but it certainly doesn't hurt. And there is absolutely is no correlation between better passing out of the back and good chance conversion.

Where we fell apart this year -- apart from the Brentford, City and Liverpool debacles 17 goals conceded in those three matches, but while we're on the subject: 27 goals conceded in the other 35 PL matches, which is more than decent -- was our finishing. We were god fukking awful with our finishing outside of Rashford. In the few games Martial was physically able to play, his finishing was awful; Sancho could only manage 6 goals; Antony only 4 goals. Let's forget about Martial: Sancho and Antony were in no way starved for service because we could never move the ball out of our own final third. They were just horrifying on goal. How many times did we see Antony shape for his left foot over and over and refuse to use his right foot? Too many. None of that had anything to do with De Gea and if neither Sancho or Antony pull themselves together there's nothing Onana's improved passing out of the back can do about that.

Let's take a match that probably reflects the general frustration we endured this season: Palace 1, United 1 on January 18. The official xg was 0.5 for Palace, 2.1 for United. United had 60% possession. United had a passing accuracy of 81%. United had 15 shots on goal, 4 on target. I can't find any heat maps for the game, but I remember it well enough to know that we dominated possession, created more good chances, had no particular problems moving the ball out of the back, and that we "should have" won the game. But we lost the game on a stoppage time free kick by Michael Olise, which I would argue could not have been stopped by Onana, or even Obama.

It's actually worth checking out again one of the top free kicks of this last season:



A reasonable response to the goal by Olise is that no one is expecting Onana to save every shot, certainly not a free kick that may go down as the top free kick of last season and probably the greatest goal Olise will ever score in his professional career. No doubt about that. But we should never have been in that position in the first place, demanding that De Gea keep a clean sheet by saving an unsaveable shot on goal, lest failure to do meant dropped points. We were clinging to a 0-1 lead in a match where we dominated the opponent and should have them but failed to do so because of poor finishing, not an inability to pass the ball out of the back.

Most opponents in the PL this last season sat back on us, knowing we would crap out pants at the first sight on goal, which in fact happened all the fukking time. They would hit us on counters and take their chances on direct free kicks and corner kicks. Top teams like City and Arsenal took the game to us, pressing high and creating problems, and a keeper like Onana will help us beat presses, but we still have a weakness at RB that opponents can exploit (the few clubs which did press us invited the ball to the right side) and when Casemiro was out due to various suspensions we were incredibly vulnerable in midfield as well. And of course going Route One to Antony and Sancho is pretty useful (EDIT: useless) as Antony is easily defended in breakaway situations and Sancho for whatever reason is useless in 1v1 situations. I trust Rashford and Garnacho with outstanding Route One balls, but I really hope we're not bringing in Onana for the purpose of becoming a Route One club. Presumably not, so it's all about improving our buildup play and if that's the case then we really need to have a conversation about the weakest link on the back line: right fullback. And, we're only one muscle injury away from having to resort to Maguire or Lindelof, not exactly exemplars of buildup play. And we need cover for Casemiro. And we need to do something about Sancho and Antony, who significantly underperformed last season against the most modest of expectations. And we need to bring in a striker who is ready right now for the PL, not 2-3 years from now.

I think there are three areas where Onana coming in for Dave will really improve us. The first obvious one is general goalkeeping ability. With the same amount and quality of shots, Onana based on recent history will save more than Dave - although I accept this will be blasphemy to some people on this thread.

The second thing is that Dave contributed to us losing control and getting countered from his kick outs and distribution. De Gea is chronically bad, possibly league worst, at this and was a turnover machine. It was very hard to maintain control (not all of our lack of control is down to him obviously but he does contribute). Onana has a much more varied range and accuracy of passing and so the keeper gaining posession won't automatically result in opposition posession.

Finally, the most interesting impact should be one which addresses your first point to a degree i.e. better passing doesn't correlate to better chance creation. One area that we have been terrible is beating the press. Among top clubs, we have an ability far below average to do so. I would say De Gea, Varane, AWB, Casemiro, Bruno, Fred are all very poor at this trait among our regular starters and so this really affects our ability to get out of first phase possession. De Gea was obviously a complete liability under pressure but now we're moving to one of the best and most composed keepers on the planet and what it will allow us to do is to use Onana like a third centre back that opposing forwards have to press freeing space for one of our attacking players in more dangerous positions which will clearly lead to more dangerous opportunities if that forward is Rashford or Hojlund who can take advantage of these situations with pace.
 
Onana will make our playing area more compact and closer to the opponent's goal.

With De Gea, we had 100 metres of green grass to progress through on every transition.

With Onana, every single player from the GK to the defenders to the midfielders to the attackers will be about 20 metres further up the pitch. This alone will create chances. It's always easier to score when you can start your attacks nearer to the net!

The flipside is, of course, that opposition teams will need to sit deeper and be less likely to score as well.

I think Onana could rival Bruno as the single most transformative signing we've had since Cantona.
 
With De Gea, we had 100 metres of green grass to progress through on every transition.

Football needs some sort of a yards gained metric sort of like the NFL. The progressive passes, carries thing exists but I feel like there's room to measure what you're saying (how did player x contribute to the build up phase).
 
You guys always seem to be in some sort of disagreement/debate @Adnan and @georgipep. What's the deal?
Nowadays I only read redcafe through my News Feed (only people I follow) and thus tend to respond to their posts way more than to others.

And since I read most things Adnan posts, and I disagree with some of them, or want to debate points, thus a higher ratio.

I agree with most he writes, just don't comment on it :D
 
Because DeGea leaving means Onana wants to come here to be undisputed no1. And having to sign a gk to be able to not extend with DeGea, doesn‘t make our position stronger but weaker imo.

I’m looking at the angle of negotiating with Inter - or any club whose GK we are interested in for that matter. With De Gea leaving, everyone knows we are desperate for a 1st team GK and will surely leverage that point against us in negotiations.
It’s nice that Onana would be more keen to move knowing that De Gea has left, but unless Onana pushes more aggressively for a deal with us.
 
Football needs some sort of a yards gained metric sort of like the NFL. The progressive passes, carries thing exists but I feel like there's room to measure what you're saying (how did player x contribute to the build up phase).
Different data companies have them; statsbomb have the xgbuildup and xgchain for example. I'm sure opta have their own version. Not publicly available on fbref though.
 
Nowadays I only read redcafe through my News Feed (only people I follow) and thus tend to respond to their posts way more than to others.

And since I read most things Adnan posts, and I disagree with some of them, or want to debate points, thus a higher ratio.

I agree with most he writes, just don't comment on it :D
Oh that explains it then. Thank you for putting me out of my nosey misery :)
 
The disagreement/debate is always initiated by the other person. And it's mostly after Solskjaer is mentioned.
100%

I am a deep lurker and also feel that Solskjaer has been seriously thrown under the bus when the progress under him was obvious.

And you are saying he never tried to progress us tactically, but that just isn't true. As De Gea kept Ten Hag back this season, Ole was kept back by De Gea and many others. I don't want to get into more details, as you suggested, we can do it in another, more relevant, thread.
 
100%

I am a deep lurker and also feel that Solskjaer has been seriously thrown under the bus when the progress under him was obvious.

And you are saying he never tried to progress us tactically, but that just isn't true. As De Gea kept Ten Hag back this season, Ole was kept back by De Gea and many others. I don't want to get into more details, as you suggested, we can do it in another, more relevant, thread.
I'm not saying he never tried to progress us tactically, he quite obviously had the idea in his head to progress us tactically which correlated to the evolving reality of the EPL. And he mentioned in a press conference about wanting to replicate Liverpool's high line tactics, which was great to hear from my own perspective.

But what he said and how he went about constructing the team towards the method he spoke about implementing couldn't be further apart imo. He got the recruitment badly wrong from the back line, midfield composition and topped it off by pushing to sign Ronaldo after it was reported that he ignored the advice of his coaching staff who had concerns about Ronaldo's off the ball game.

You can be the greatest coach in the world with the most progressive ideas, but if you don't recruit accordingly to the blueprint in question then the car crash is inevitable imo.
 
I’ve never understood why negotiations take this long, just blummen talk and agree!

Think it is very close. We are beyond the submitting bids phase and into direct contacts which is to say that rather than put in speculative offers and wait on a response we are actively discussing the final price and how that will be paid, how any add ons will be structured etc. so the next written offer will already be pre approved and accepted. With us wanting him on the plane on Friday we are going to need to do medicals etc. by Wednesday at the latest so I am expecting news that our bid has been accepted within the next 24 hours.
 
Different data companies have them; statsbomb have the xgbuildup and xgchain for example. I'm sure opta have their own version. Not publicly available on fbref though.

Yep good point but I feel xG build up won't capture it because that chain needs to end in a shot that has actual xG at the end. This is more effectiveness during build-up play. The progressive passes per 90 / yards per 90 covers it for GKs pretty well but I don't see any data for it.
 
I’m looking at the angle of negotiating with Inter - or any club whose GK we are interested in for that matter. With De Gea leaving, everyone knows we are desperate for a 1st team GK and will surely leverage that point against us in negotiations.
It’s nice that Onana would be more keen to move knowing that De Gea has left, but unless Onana pushes more aggressively for a deal with us.
If DeGea had extended, we would not be in for Onana or Costa. They also would not want to come. It would be a terrible bargaining position. I think it is good he left, the Onana deal was likely already 95% wrapped up.
 
I'm not saying he never tried to progress us tactically, he quite obviously had the idea in his head to progress us tactically which correlated to the evolving reality of the EPL. And he mentioned in a press conference about wanting to replicate Liverpool's high line tactics, which was great to hear from my own perspective.

But what he said and how he went about constructing the team towards the method he spoke about implementing couldn't be further apart imo. He got the recruitment badly wrong from the back line, midfield composition and topped it off by pushing to sign Ronaldo after it was reported that he ignored the advice of his coaching staff who had concerns about Ronaldo's off the ball game.

You can be the greatest coach in the world with the most progressive ideas, but if you don't recruit accordingly to the blueprint in question then the car crash is inevitable imo.
I think you are completely right, he got the signings wrong, unless of course he changed his mind about the tactics.

All water under the bridge now. Onana will make a huge difference to our setup.
 
I think there are three areas where Onana coming in for Dave will really improve us. The first obvious one is general goalkeeping ability. With the same amount and quality of shots, Onana based on recent history will save more than Dave - although I accept this will be blasphemy to some people on this thread.

The second thing is that Dave contributed to us losing control and getting countered from his kick outs and distribution. De Gea is chronically bad, possibly league worst, at this and was a turnover machine. It was very hard to maintain control (not all of our lack of control is down to him obviously but he does contribute). Onana has a much more varied range and accuracy of passing and so the keeper gaining posession won't automatically result in opposition posession.

Finally, the most interesting impact should be one which addresses your first point to a degree i.e. better passing doesn't correlate to better chance creation. One area that we have been terrible is beating the press. Among top clubs, we have an ability far below average to do so. I would say De Gea, Varane, AWB, Casemiro, Bruno, Fred are all very poor at this trait among our regular starters and so this really affects our ability to get out of first phase possession. De Gea was obviously a complete liability under pressure but now we're moving to one of the best and most composed keepers on the planet and what it will allow us to do is to use Onana like a third centre back that opposing forwards have to press freeing space for one of our attacking players in more dangerous positions which will clearly lead to more dangerous opportunities if that forward is Rashford or Hojlund who can take advantage of these situations with pace.

A superb reply, for which I am grateful.

In terms of general goalkeeping ability, De Gea is rightly subject to criticism for his distribution, but it should not go without some comment that Dave was handicapped by defenders who aren't the most adept with the ball. Martinez stands out, but of course it took a while for Martinez to adapt to the intensity of the PL. Varane is very solid with the ball but he really isn't quite the Rolls Royce of a footballer that he's made out here to be...and of course he's injury prone. And when he's out with injury we're reduced to Maguire and Lindelof. Maguire is just flat out terrible with the ball; Lindelof isn't terrible, but he's not RR either. AWB is borderline terrible with the ball, though not as bad as Maguire. Dalot had a great first half of the season but fell off a cliff in the second half. Shaw is magnificent; Malacia, however, is still learning the PL ropes. Point being, De Gea got a lot of blame for what was in fact poor ball handling by his defenders. The ball to Maguire v Sevilla was perfectly reasonable and should never have resulted in a Maguire panic. Longer balls to Antony and Sancho resulted in nothing because Antony kept insisting in shaping to his left foot; Sancho was simply abysmal. When Casemiro was out we didn't have a proper CDM to play through and in fact until we brought in Casemiro this season United didn't have a CDM to play through since Carrick retired in 2018, possibly De Gea's greatest season.

If we're going to be honest, De Gea has had horrendous back lines and midfields to work with since we last won the PL trophy, which he was here for.

As for chance creation, the PL stats teams report that Bruno led the PL in chance creation with 119 chances created. De Bruyne came in third with 98. In no way will I ever argue that Dave deserves any credit for the chances that Bruno created any more than I would argue that Bruno deserves credit for the saves that Dave made. Bruno is his own man, full stop. But we really can't argue that we suffered in chance creation this season when the undisputed PL leader in chance creation this season was Bruno Fernandes.

What about chances converted? The follow is an undisputed fact, and not a derivative statistic: United scored only 58 goals, compared to City with 94, Arsenal with 88, Newcastle with 68 and Liverpool with 75. 58 goals scored is a horrifying number. Maybe our poor goals scored record mostly comes down to Dave's underperformance as distributor of the ball? That's not an intuitive conclusion, but it may well be the case. Let's go to derivative statistics now. City led the league in xG with 2.16, Arsenal with 2.13, Brighton at 2.00, Liverpool at 1.95, and United 1.85. So far, one could say this is proof that Dave is the problem. (I wouldn't, but some might.) Where such a claim falls apart is with the xG v Actual stat, which indicts out front line before the jury -- City with +0.31, Arsenal with +0.19, Brighton at +0.11, Liverpool at +0.02, and United...this should no surprise to anyone here who watches us closely...at -0.29. One 6 clubs had a worse xG v Actual than United.

The bottom line is that our chance creation was decent enough, but without question needs to improve (and presumably Mount will help immensely, as will an improved Antony), but what really needs to improve is our finishing on goal. Onana can fizz world class balls to his fullbacks and to Casemiro but unless our striker -- which went an entire season without a striker, which is remarkable -- is a clinical finisher on goal, we'll still be mired with ineffectiveness on goal and scraping a top four spot at best.

An interesting stat I came across is that United's xG in away games was a decent 1.68 (compared to City at 2.05, which is no surprise), yet our away record was abysmal. I don't have the official away won/draw/loss record in front of me but we suffered heavy defeats away to Brentford, City, Villa, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs and narrow defeats away to Arsenal and Brighton. We scored 8 goals in those 8 away games.

The recurring theme for getting rid of De Gea has been that commits too many howlers and that we score too few goals because of him. I agree with the howler thesis and in fact am board with bringing in a keeper who still has 3-4 peak years ahead of him before his decline begins, but the "Dave destroys our attack" thesis is not supported by the facts. That facts are that we created our fair share of chances but that our finishing on those chance was extremely poor, among the worst in the league. No keeper, not even prime Schmeichel, could have rescued Martial, Antony and Sancho all having very disappointing -- to the point of being ludicrously poor -- seasons.
 
Another situation like we had with Chelsea where they didn’t want to budge on the price but then we found a compromise. Same thing will happen here.
 
Just about everyone and their mother are claiming it's imminent and a matter of days

 
Good to see we're "closing in" as opposed to "interested".
This may get done before start of the season.
 
A superb reply, for which I am grateful.

In terms of general goalkeeping ability, De Gea is rightly subject to criticism for his distribution, but it should not go without some comment that Dave was handicapped by defenders who aren't the most adept with the ball. Martinez stands out, but of course it took a while for Martinez to adapt to the intensity of the PL. Varane is very solid with the ball but he really isn't quite the Rolls Royce of a footballer that he's made out here to be...and of course he's injury prone. And when he's out with injury we're reduced to Maguire and Lindelof. Maguire is just flat out terrible with the ball; Lindelof isn't terrible, but he's not RR either. AWB is borderline terrible with the ball, though not as bad as Maguire. Dalot had a great first half of the season but fell off a cliff in the second half. Shaw is magnificent; Malacia, however, is still learning the PL ropes. Point being, De Gea got a lot of blame for what was in fact poor ball handling by his defenders. The ball to Maguire v Sevilla was perfectly reasonable and should never have resulted in a Maguire panic. Longer balls to Antony and Sancho resulted in nothing because Antony kept insisting in shaping to his left foot; Sancho was simply abysmal. When Casemiro was out we didn't have a proper CDM to play through and in fact until we brought in Casemiro this season United didn't have a CDM to play through since Carrick retired in 2018, possibly De Gea's greatest season.

If we're going to be honest, De Gea has had horrendous back lines and midfields to work with since we last won the PL trophy, which he was here for.

As for chance creation, the PL stats teams report that Bruno led the PL in chance creation with 119 chances created. De Bruyne came in third with 98. In no way will I ever argue that Dave deserves any credit for the chances that Bruno created any more than I would argue that Bruno deserves credit for the saves that Dave made. Bruno is his own man, full stop. But we really can't argue that we suffered in chance creation this season when the undisputed PL leader in chance creation this season was Bruno Fernandes.

What about chances converted? The follow is an undisputed fact, and not a derivative statistic: United scored only 58 goals, compared to City with 94, Arsenal with 88, Newcastle with 68 and Liverpool with 75. 58 goals scored is a horrifying number. Maybe our poor goals scored record mostly comes down to Dave's underperformance as distributor of the ball? That's not an intuitive conclusion, but it may well be the case. Let's go to derivative statistics now. City led the league in xG with 2.16, Arsenal with 2.13, Brighton at 2.00, Liverpool at 1.95, and United 1.85. So far, one could say this is proof that Dave is the problem. (I wouldn't, but some might.) Where such a claim falls apart is with the xG v Actual stat, which indicts out front line before the jury -- City with +0.31, Arsenal with +0.19, Brighton at +0.11, Liverpool at +0.02, and United...this should no surprise to anyone here who watches us closely...at -0.29. One 6 clubs had a worse xG v Actual than United.

The bottom line is that our chance creation was decent enough, but without question needs to improve (and presumably Mount will help immensely, as will an improved Antony), but what really needs to improve is our finishing on goal. Onana can fizz world class balls to his fullbacks and to Casemiro but unless our striker -- which went an entire season without a striker, which is remarkable -- is a clinical finisher on goal, we'll still be mired with ineffectiveness on goal and scraping a top four spot at best.

An interesting stat I came across is that United's xG in away games was a decent 1.68 (compared to City at 2.05, which is no surprise), yet our away record was abysmal. I don't have the official away won/draw/loss record in front of me but we suffered heavy defeats away to Brentford, City, Villa, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs and narrow defeats away to Arsenal and Brighton. We scored 8 goals in those 8 away games.

The recurring theme for getting rid of De Gea has been that commits too many howlers and that we score too few goals because of him. I agree with the howler thesis and in fact am board with bringing in a keeper who still has 3-4 peak years ahead of him before his decline begins, but the "Dave destroys our attack" thesis is not supported by the facts. That facts are that we created our fair share of chances but that our finishing on those chance was extremely poor, among the worst in the league. No keeper, not even prime Schmeichel, could have rescued Martial, Antony and Sancho all having very disappointing -- to the point of being ludicrously poor -- seasons.
Though I generally agree that our forwards finishing was bad aside Rashford. I expect improvement from Antony and Sancho as I've given up on Martial, hopefully with Højlund who i think will be an upgrade on Weghorst and Ronaldo in terms of movement and mobility would lead to more space for clear cut chances.

I think what others are saying is having Onana in for DDG enables us to push our line higher up the pitch which would make our pressing more efficient and also makes us more compact but we still need to improve on chance creation which i think was impacted by our ability to totally dominate and control games due to the deep line DDG forced us to because he's terrible at sweeping, basically the ball over the top which we've seen Allison/Ederson deal with without any fuss regularly leads to shots against us in turn leading to so many goals/ corners. DDG being a good shot stopper doesn't mean he's not directly hindering our ability to play possession football with his inability to play under pressure constantly causing turnovers which puts us on the back foot in almost every game which becomes magnified away when the onus is on the home side to get a result.

I would say with Onana in for us who's a massive upgrade on DDG in passing/ sweeping/ high claims would bring stability to our style of play which I think enables us to play in the opponents half as is the way EtH wants.
 
Though I generally agree that our forwards finishing was bad aside Rashford. I expect improvement from Antony and Sancho as I've given up on Martial, hopefully with Højlund who i think will be an upgrade on Weghorst and Ronaldo in terms of movement and mobility would lead to more space for clear cut chances.

I think what others are saying is having Onana in for DDG enables us to push our line higher up the pitch which would make our pressing more efficient and also makes us more compact but we still need to improve on chance creation which i think was impacted by our ability to totally dominate and control games due to the deep line DDG forced us to because he's terrible at sweeping, basically the ball over the top which we've seen Allison/Ederson deal with without any fuss regularly leads to shots against us in turn leading to so many goals/ corners. DDG being a good shot stopper doesn't mean he's not directly hindering our ability to play possession football with his inability to play under pressure constantly causing turnovers which puts us on the back foot in almost every game which becomes magnified away when the onus is on the home side to get a result.

I would say with Onana in for us who's a massive upgrade on DDG in passing/ sweeping/ high claims would bring stability to our style of play which I think enables us to play in the opponents half as is the way EtH wants.

What's done is done and I'm board with turning a new page on our keeper, but I have no expectation that a keeper with better footwork will have any impact on the footwork of our forwards.

Take Antony for example. What was our complaint with him all season? It was that he was so heavily one-footed that it became child's play to defend him. I can recall more than a few occasions where the defender invited Antony to go to his right but he insisted on going to his left with the play eventually resulting in a broken half-chance.

As for pressing higher up the pitch, our forwards just didn't want to commit to that much work. Antony to some extent did, but definitely not Martial, Rashford and Sancho...all of whom view such work as beneath their ball-playing ability. I'm just not having the argument that Martial refused to press because De Gea is poor with his feet.

City aren't even that much of a pressing team as they control the ball so much they don't need to press very often. When they do lose possession deep in the opponent's back third they will press, but City's bread is buttered by control of midfield and clinical finishing, not pressing. Liverpool at their peak was a pressing machine and Alisson played his part in that, but it was the workrate that all 10 outfield players committed to that made their pressing work, not Alisson's undenied brilliance as a keeper.

As for Onana, the 22/23 Inter Milan team made its coin as a counterattacking, not pressing, side. This fact neither speaks for or against Onana, but if we're looking to past experience to suggest where the future is heading, Onana's experience in a counterattacking side isn't exactly indicative that United will become a successful pressing side. The following statement wanders into speculation so take it with a grain of salt but when you look at the players we currently have there is nothing in the makeup of our most likely regular starting XI -- Onana, Shaw, Martinez, Varane, Wan-Bissaka, Casemiro, Mount, Bruno, Rashford, Hojlund and Antony -- that will look anything like a high-pressing side.

All I'm saying that we ought not to get carried away with the supposed transformation in our game that Onana will deliver us. Nearly all clubs outside of the top six sat back against us and took their few chances on free kicks (Olise) and shots from distance (Benrahma) while we dominated possession and created chances but found the clinical finish we needed to put the game away by the 60th minute beyond our reach. Against the top six last season at OT we took care of business but found it impossible to control midfield and create any chances, which had nothing to do with Dave. The first season for any new keeper at OT is going to be a rocky road. He will make mistakes even as his fizzes balls to his fullbacks.
 
Surprised we didn't get the Here we go today. Definitely expect it this week. Really need to get this don't and a striker with enough time that they take part in pre season
 
A superb reply, for which I am grateful.

In terms of general goalkeeping ability, De Gea is rightly subject to criticism for his distribution, but it should not go without some comment that Dave was handicapped by defenders who aren't the most adept with the ball. Martinez stands out, but of course it took a while for Martinez to adapt to the intensity of the PL. Varane is very solid with the ball but he really isn't quite the Rolls Royce of a footballer that he's made out here to be...and of course he's injury prone. And when he's out with injury we're reduced to Maguire and Lindelof. Maguire is just flat out terrible with the ball; Lindelof isn't terrible, but he's not RR either. AWB is borderline terrible with the ball, though not as bad as Maguire. Dalot had a great first half of the season but fell off a cliff in the second half. Shaw is magnificent; Malacia, however, is still learning the PL ropes. Point being, De Gea got a lot of blame for what was in fact poor ball handling by his defenders. The ball to Maguire v Sevilla was perfectly reasonable and should never have resulted in a Maguire panic. Longer balls to Antony and Sancho resulted in nothing because Antony kept insisting in shaping to his left foot; Sancho was simply abysmal. When Casemiro was out we didn't have a proper CDM to play through and in fact until we brought in Casemiro this season United didn't have a CDM to play through since Carrick retired in 2018, possibly De Gea's greatest season.

If we're going to be honest, De Gea has had horrendous back lines and midfields to work with since we last won the PL trophy, which he was here for.

As for chance creation, the PL stats teams report that Bruno led the PL in chance creation with 119 chances created. De Bruyne came in third with 98. In no way will I ever argue that Dave deserves any credit for the chances that Bruno created any more than I would argue that Bruno deserves credit for the saves that Dave made. Bruno is his own man, full stop. But we really can't argue that we suffered in chance creation this season when the undisputed PL leader in chance creation this season was Bruno Fernandes.

What about chances converted? The follow is an undisputed fact, and not a derivative statistic: United scored only 58 goals, compared to City with 94, Arsenal with 88, Newcastle with 68 and Liverpool with 75. 58 goals scored is a horrifying number. Maybe our poor goals scored record mostly comes down to Dave's underperformance as distributor of the ball? That's not an intuitive conclusion, but it may well be the case. Let's go to derivative statistics now. City led the league in xG with 2.16, Arsenal with 2.13, Brighton at 2.00, Liverpool at 1.95, and United 1.85. So far, one could say this is proof that Dave is the problem. (I wouldn't, but some might.) Where such a claim falls apart is with the xG v Actual stat, which indicts out front line before the jury -- City with +0.31, Arsenal with +0.19, Brighton at +0.11, Liverpool at +0.02, and United...this should no surprise to anyone here who watches us closely...at -0.29. One 6 clubs had a worse xG v Actual than United.

The bottom line is that our chance creation was decent enough, but without question needs to improve (and presumably Mount will help immensely, as will an improved Antony), but what really needs to improve is our finishing on goal. Onana can fizz world class balls to his fullbacks and to Casemiro but unless our striker -- which went an entire season without a striker, which is remarkable -- is a clinical finisher on goal, we'll still be mired with ineffectiveness on goal and scraping a top four spot at best.

An interesting stat I came across is that United's xG in away games was a decent 1.68 (compared to City at 2.05, which is no surprise), yet our away record was abysmal. I don't have the official away won/draw/loss record in front of me but we suffered heavy defeats away to Brentford, City, Villa, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs and narrow defeats away to Arsenal and Brighton. We scored 8 goals in those 8 away games.

The recurring theme for getting rid of De Gea has been that commits too many howlers and that we score too few goals because of him. I agree with the howler thesis and in fact am board with bringing in a keeper who still has 3-4 peak years ahead of him before his decline begins, but the "Dave destroys our attack" thesis is not supported by the facts. That facts are that we created our fair share of chances but that our finishing on those chance was extremely poor, among the worst in the league. No keeper, not even prime Schmeichel, could have rescued Martial, Antony and Sancho all having very disappointing -- to the point of being ludicrously poor -- seasons.

You've obviously put a lot of effort in this post so i don't really want to be flippant about it but this is a just a long winded way to deflect a lot of the criticism of De Gea's ability on the ball when it does directly affect the team whether that's defensively or offensively. All teams that wish to be successful and progressive with the ball must have players that are good on the ball; that includes the keeper, every player on the pitch is responsible for something. If you can freely criticise about AWB, Maguire and Lindelof etc being bad on the ball then that also equally applies to De Gea. Take a step back and then think holistically what does that actually mean? Bad on the ball = less possession, less passing angles, less passes, less opportunities to progress the ball, more opportunities for the opposition to press, to have time on the ball themselves, to attack us etc etc. So yes if AWB is bad on the ball, then so is De Gea and therefore his deficiencies are also directly involved in the inability of the team to do things. They are all intrinsically linked.

De Gea is objectively bad on the ball and he did negatively affect our ability to control games. Now does that mean Onana is going to transform our team? Yes and no. Casemiro and Martinez are two perfect examples who basically delivered on every measure of what they could do on an individual level to improve our team i.e defensive and passing beasts. Did they stop our team from getting thrashed? Did they help us dominate teams, middle table or top 6? No but their impact is very clear and they've clearly better than Maguire/Lindelof/Fred/McTominay; they've also help get the best out of AWB/Shaw/Rashford/Bruno etc. If Onana delivers on what we hope he can, we could see an equal impact by raising the bottom level, which going forward should mean more 'attacking' or control to win games.

TLDR: sure we can't say xyz player can improve Antony taking on a player but in terms of maths, here's an overly simple example. Let's say last season, in a single game on average Antony had 10 take-on attempts and completed 4, which is 40%. Next season, with a different set of players behind him (Onana and Mount), he may still be only complete 40% but he may have double (20) the opportunities because of our control of the game and therefore he will take on a player 8 times. Can you see how that may mean 'better attacking' now? Of course it's not linear like that.
 
As things stand, the guys who are hoping for transformation of the team into an elite passing one from getting this guy would be quite disappointed. The biggest factor remains the midfield and even if Mount is great, we need another very good midfielder. Doesn't look like we can fill that position yet.

So I suspect the team's progress in terms of passing ability would be marginal at best.

What I am looking forward to most with a De Gea replacement is a keeper who isn't afraid of sweeping which in turn will allow us to have a high line. Seems from the few vids I have seen of Onana that he does do the job of a sweeper keeper well (though more risk taking than I would like). The high line could help us in our attacking transitions (counter attacking) that the likes of Rashford and Bruno relish.

Disagree in one aspect and that is your comments on transformation and the correlation of a high line. By having a higher line you create a more compact play
Though I generally agree that our forwards finishing was bad aside Rashford. I expect improvement from Antony and Sancho as I've given up on Martial, hopefully with Højlund who i think will be an upgrade on Weghorst and Ronaldo in terms of movement and mobility would lead to more space for clear cut chances.

I think what others are saying is having Onana in for DDG enables us to push our line higher up the pitch which would make our pressing more efficient and also makes us more compact but we still need to improve on chance creation which i think was impacted by our ability to totally dominate and control games due to the deep line DDG forced us to because he's terrible at sweeping, basically the ball over the top which we've seen Allison/Ederson deal with without any fuss regularly leads to shots against us in turn leading to so many goals/ corners. DDG being a good shot stopper doesn't mean he's not directly hindering our ability to play possession football with his inability to play under pressure constantly causing turnovers which puts us on the back foot in almost every game which becomes magnified away when the onus is on the home side to get a result.

I would say with Onana in for us who's a massive upgrade on DDG in passing/ sweeping/ high claims would bring stability to our style of play which I think enables us to play in the opponents half as is the way EtH wants.

Another factor to consider, is that in our best games last season there were large periods we were queueing up to take shots. A higher line enabled by Onana and more compact field of play is only going to increase those situations.
 
Onanarama.

He's got it!
Oh baby he's got it!
I'm your sweeper, I'm your keeper
No more De Gea.
For me that’s a fail. Not only does it not mention the guy the chant is for, but it’s dumping on a club legend too. What about-


He's got it!
Onana, he's got it!
He’s your sweeper, he’s your keeper
He’s retired from international duty so won’t be called up for the Afcon.

Maybe last line needs to be a little snappier. :wenger:
 
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