Haven't seen FC Barca's post but I tend to agree. See above.
Ander Herrera is a Manchester United Player!
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Haven't seen FC Barca's post but I tend to agree. See above.
Yeah, already figured he wasn't as good as Carrick yet but I wasn't sure about his potential or what type of player he was exactly. Think between you, Brwned and FCBarca I've a fair idea of what to expect from him. Definitely sounds like Moyes had a point if he thought he wasn't worth that amount of money.
Well there's probably a reason nobody else went and paid it. I certainly think it was too high.
While I don't dispute it being hefty, the "no one else went and paid it" is a common flawed logic. No one else went for Ronaldo when we did, there had been 5M offers but nothing close to what we paid. There are truckloads of examples of great players moving with "no one else going for them". On the other hand, no one else offered 23M, let alone 27.5M for Fellaini.
Both points are relevant: which team has the money to pay 5-10M extra for an investment for the future and doesn't already have a good midfield playmaker? No one out there that could use him as much as we could.
Ronaldo was a kid. Ander has played many many years in first teams in la liga and won things as an international under 21 with the most high profile team. And Ander's fee is much higher than taking a punt on a kid. Its paying for the genuine article, like we did with Fellaini...
I don't watch too much of Atletico Madrid. How does Koke compare? He's 21 and I read somewhere Barca are interested.
The punt on Ronaldo was 5-7.5M more than anyone had been willing to offer. In absolute terms it is as much as we would have to overpay for Herrera. You are clearer on what you are getting with Herrera, granted, which is why the size of the "punt" doesn't add up to the fee being twice as much as fair value (on the basis "fair value" would be what others have been willing to offer, Ronaldo was clearly a steal with hindsight).
Koke's a good player now and a great prospect - he's also young and he's got a release clause of around 20m Euros. He's made a great start this season and is a significant part of why Atletico (and Costa) are doing so well. In principle he's an all round midfielder - in practice he's currently being used wide as a creator, rather than in a more controlling position.
It's a safe bet that (barring injury) someone will try to spring that release clause next summer, and the rumour is that it will be Barca. He's certainly one to watch, as is the 18 year old Torres.
Herrerra's not had the best of times since that deadline day fun. Whether he's feeling extra pressure from that bid or it's just normal form wobbles I don't know. It's certainly the case that the manager is benching him or subbing him off early - but that might be the manager looking at how the side shapes up without him. That said, Athletic in general are pretty inconsistent. It's certainly knocked his confidence a bit.
Thanks for the update, as always jojojo. Yeah, I heard about Barca sniffing around Koke as a replacement for Xavi. I'm assuming Cesc is the long term replacement for Iniesta probably?
Atletico seem to have a ready made replacement for Koke in Torres but I'm sure they'll try and get Koke to sign a higher release clause during the season?
They've already negotiated a new contract with Koke this season (as they did last year) and it's believed that his release clause went up to 20m as part of the deal. Like most young, highly talented Spanish players he's willing to stay where he'll get games, but wants to know that he can leave if the right club comes in for him.
aka Barca or Madrid!
How do you rate Koke as a CM, in terms of style of play and his passing/aggression?
Koke is an all-rounder. He is a polished 'British-style' midfielder if anything. Not as pretty with it as some of his fellow young Spanish midfielders, but has a bit of everything and seems a leader to me.
Sounds like he'll fit in well in quite well.
Herrera is like Arteta now huh? Thats funny I dont remember seeing Arteta destroying United when he played us
Koke's also a very good set-piece taker. I'd be annoyed if, for whatever reason, we haven't considered him instead of other more expensive alternatives.
No, he is better, but he is closer to Arteta than Fabregas which seems to be the player people want a new one of.
I don't think he can get to be as good as Fabregas at what defines him, but perform a similar role while being better suited to a midfield two than Fabregas would be.
Would anybody complain if we offloaded Anderson in January and signed Herrera? that'd be fantastic business IMO.
Can anybody tell me why his passing accuracy is below 80% and was last season aswel..?
In that league, and team, it seems low for what he is meant to be..
In that league, and team, it seems low for what he is meant to be..
Last season only Trashorras and the Barca players made more passes than him, and his passing was 81%. Alonso's was 83%.
Maybe I have misconceptions about La Liga then, because about 150 players had higher passing accuracy in the Premier League last season.
The top 5 midfielders in the Premier League for passing accuracy this season are Britton, Javi Garcia, Medel, Mikel and Flamini. That should tell you all you need to know about how important that stat is.
It is a very important stat. Specially for midfielders. You dont want your players to give away the ball, specially those who plays in your own half most of the time.
Brwned, do you think we should pay the release clause?
The better stat is probably how many times they "turnover" the ball, ie a pass that goes to an opponent player then. Whoscored has that one
The difference would be it wouldn't penalize a player for trying to set someone away and the ball just goes out of play or something. Just how many times they play a pass and the other team retain the ball
Last season 'On the ball' stats (per game).
Let's do this daily mail styleeee:
Ander: 66 passes 80.9% - 1.5 turnovers, 1.9 dispossessed, 1.5 dribbles, 1.3 killer passes, 4.3 long balls, 0.4 through balls, 0.5 crosses.
Cleverley: 49 passes 90.2% - 0.6 turnovers, 0.5 dispossessed, 0.2 dribbles, 0.9 killer passes, 3 long balls, 0 through balls, 0.2 crosses.
The most annoying thing about this for me is that, for me, Cleverley is easily capable of getting Ander's numbers and I imagine would still have better pass accuracy and less turnovers and dispossession. Obviously it's conjecture because he has never proved it, but I'm confident that the only thing stopping him is his own mentality of keeping the ball and playing it safe.
Stats don't tell half the story about a player, I remember someone coming up with Xavi's passing percentage against PSG at home last season (I think it was around 95% pass completion) and raving about his performance based on that when I actually genuinely thought he had a poor game by his standards.
There are so many variables that influence the judgement of player's performance that it's impossible to accurately define a player based on numbers he produces. They are helpful to some extent but they're just that, a help in assessing a player not a definite source.
There are so many variables that influence the judgement of player's performance that it's impossible to accurately define a player based on numbers he produces. They are helpful to some extent but they're just that, a help in assessing a player not a definite source.
I understand that, I just brought it up and asked if anybody could give me any reasons why and nobody has done. He's quite ambitious with the ball, especially in comparison to Cleverley, so it's understandable to be lower - but that still seems too low to me.
I still think he seems to lose the ball more often than he should do, but maybe he would be less likely to do that at United?
And of course it doesn't tell the full story, that's why in the post above yours I bring up other on the ball stats to compare.
I still think he seems to lose the ball more often than he should do, but maybe he would be less likely to do that at United?
And of course it doesn't tell the full story, that's why in the post above yours I bring up other on the ball stats to compare.
Killer passes 
How do you measure those?
How do you measure those?If he's gotten those stats from whoscored (which I assume he has) then KP actually stands for 'key pass' and is either:Killer passes
- A pass/cross that is instrumental in creating a goal-scoring opportunity, for example a corner or free-kick to a player who then assists an attempt, a chance-creating through ball or cross into a dangerous position.
or
- The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball having an attempt at goal without scoring.
http://www.optasportspro.com/fr/a-p...s-event-definitions.aspx#sthash.Su6SCCJi.dpuf
Doesn't the list of players Brwned provided tell you the stat is mostly useless? I wouldn't want any of those players in our midfield.
Misplaces an awful lot of passes, and playing as a number 10. He's not £30m worth based on those two vids, you can see the potential but that would be overpaying.. he's still very raw for a 24 yr old.
Which is what everyone is saying all along. Our bid actually was at the top end of a fair valuation, unfortunately the only way to get him from bilbao is going a step further and paying 5M over what is already a generous offer.
Thing is, I don't see any better options available and even if we found one we would get ripped off anyway. At least with Herrera we know there's a set price at which he can be brought in, much better than us negotiating if recent evidence is anything to go by.
It's important no doubt, but it's a nothing stat for a midfielder who's playing 5 yard, sideways passes. We don't need a "safe" player next to Carrick. We need a CM who can control and dictate the match. (see Fabregas/Modric/Gundogan etc). Unfortunately non of whom are available.
I'm hoping he'd up his game another level or 2, movign to a new league/a better team. He's almost stagnating at Bilbao atm. He's not worth his release clause, but IMO, I'd rather have overpayed for him then Fellaini.
But one can understand Moyes' decision.
He was playing effectively as a #10 last year because he was the best midfielder they had, and they needed him going forwards. He wasn't the one being asked to retain the ball, he was being asked to get it into his (out of form or inexperienced) front men.
It's not his natural position in my opinion, he's higher up the global midfielder pecking order when he plays in a midfield two or a true midfield three. They played him in that forward role because of his drive and aggression, which is why a while back I compared a couple of his performances, though not his shooting ability, to Gerrard.
When his team's under pressure, he's the one who comes for the pass or chases down. He's not an Ozil, a Rooney or an Oscar 10. He was used as a 10 because Athletic needed someone who could back up a misfiring forward line, by taking some risks from midfield.
I'm not really sure what's happening to him right now. New manager, new instructions and he's not quite found his new role? Who knows maybe he'll be down to our valuation by the end of the season - though, of course we won't want him either if he has a poor season. Dilemmas eh?
It's not his natural position in my opinion, he's higher up the global midfielder pecking order when he plays in a midfield two or a true midfield three. They played him in that forward role because of his drive and aggression, which is why a while back I compared a couple of his performances, though not his shooting ability, to Gerrard.
When his team's under pressure, he's the one who comes for the pass or chases down. He's not an Ozil, a Rooney or an Oscar 10. He was used as a 10 because Athletic needed someone who could back up a misfiring forward line, by taking some risks from midfield.
I'm not really sure what's happening to him right now. New manager, new instructions and he's not quite found his new role? Who knows maybe he'll be down to our valuation by the end of the season - though, of course we won't want him either if he has a poor season. Dilemmas eh?
He looks way out of form in those two videos.
Rooney can be made to look equally bad in a youtube video when in the worse form of his life, just saying
It was a game he actually got a 100% pass accuracy, but he was indeed poor (which didn't stop people raving about him of course), at least by his standards.
It's the problem with stats, they're only interesting if they're backed up by actually seeing the game/player a person is using the stats for, and actual knowledge of the game.
Surely two You Tube videos aren't the best way to judge a player? Just ask the Liverpool bosses who used it to judge Downing....
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