I really haven't seen much of Herrera (I'm guessing the majority of people complaining we haven't signed him haven't either), but I was referring more to proven in the PL. It's a huge first season for Moyes and he needs to steady the metaphorical ship, he's managed to keep hold of our key players and add a much needed midfielder who gives us what we have been lacking for years.
Ander Herrera is a Manchester United Player!
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I really haven't seen much of Herrera (I'm guessing the majority of people complaining we haven't signed him haven't either), but I was referring more to proven in the PL. It's a huge first season for Moyes and he needs to steady the metaphorical ship, he's managed to keep hold of our key players and add a much needed midfielder who gives us what we have been lacking for years.
We are stuck in the past aren't we? £20 million for a player like Herrera from Bilbao is clearly just not enough.
We paid 18 for Young, in the last year of his contract.
We paid 18 for Young, in the last year of his contract.
Unfortunately, even £30million isn't necessarily enough to get you a 'top, top player' these days. Ozil transferred for over £40million, Bale for twice that (even if that was ridiculous), Cavani, Neymar, Rodriguez etc. It worries me if the club starts drawing the line at the £30million region, we might not end up signing anyone of a world class caliber if we stubbornly refuse to break our club record.
Because we wanted 2 CMs
Well we bid £26 million, no? So presumably we thought our opening bid was above his valutation anyway and hence why we wouldn't go any higher, not even the 4.5 to meet his release clause. Seems bizarre for us to go in with our maximum offer first.
No chance we'll buy him in January. We clearly didn't value him at 36m why would we go in for him again?
It'll be feck all in January and then feck all in the summer because it's "a World Cup year and transfers are too hard and no value and blah blah blah"
It'll be feck all in January and then feck all in the summer because it's "a World Cup year and transfers are too hard and no value and blah blah blah"
Maybe killer ball wasn't the best term, although killer balls and assists are different things themselves.
Go check up Scholes assists stats statsman, you will find his typical season was ~4 assists, only more than that when played in a more advanced role IIRC. The midfielder which dictates the tempo and sprays balls doesn't necessairly get loads of assists, particularly in sides which put an emphasis on wingplay.
Yups, I think that was ultimately the crux of it.
Oh right, I bow to your superior knowledge. Maybe you could send Moyes and co your number, and tell them where they're going wrong.
I only have stats to go on because I have hardly seen the guy play. I bet you have followed him intently though, right?
You just chose not to update this thread for 18months, because it was your little secret.
At his age Scholes was regularly hitting double figures scoring-wise. Are you really asking me to compare him to Scholes?
Scholes would not have been at a mid table club @ 24, and an international for years.
Maybe it would be better to use Carrick as reference. He does that job. Although YOU were the one to mention the killer balls. So I'M wrong because he is a different player to the one YOU made him out to be?!
Herrera may well be the next Ronald Koeman for all I know, but I would've thought, out of all the scouts out there, someone would've recognised him for the superstar he really is, and snapped him up as the bargain he truly is.
You could use much of that argument against Javi Martinez, who the same club managed to hold on to till he was a few days off 24 by essentially the same tactics - putting in a prohibitively high but payable release clause that most didn't want to risk triggering.
I'm not arguing for or against.
This player had not been mentioned here by anyone for 18 months, and yet I have seen criticism of the club, including "Embarrassing" "Naive" "Unambitious" "Cheap" amongst others.
All I'm saying is that there is a chance that they were prudent, and may well have made the correct decision, in the cold light of day. With no clock ticking down now.
All I see is opinion. There are no facts, and precious little evidence, that this player's clause was worth meeting.
I shouldn't need to keep stating that I don't know if he's worth it! I just don't think there is a strong enough case to criticise our club, for not blowing £30m.
There is no authorative opinion for paying that. Allegedly, the club has scouted him for two years, and deemed his value as £20M.
I'd take their judgement over anything I've read here!
There's no point valuing any of Bilbao's players lower than their release clause, because that's basically the only price they're going to deal at. So if we felt he was worth only 20mil, we shouldn't even have bothered.
Maybe true that, but sometimes you take a punt. Like the Cantona deal.
Not sure what you are getting so prickly about. I'm no wannabe scout and I wouldn't have bumped this thread just the same way I don't enter any player threads except when there is active discussion. I'm no authority on Herrera but have seen maybe 5 full games + weekly La Liga highlights in the last couple of years and he always struck me as an interesting prospect. I even agreed with you that a proven star at 40-45M would be better -but none are available- and conceded he is not worth that much today. As said, I think few clubs could consider it a good investment unless they factored in other issues (state of their midfield, age profile and forward planning, etc.) which all justify his purchase by United specifically.
So basically, I largely agreed, but I did take issue with you resorting to stats to put down a player you have never seen. You clearly don't know anything about him and stats are the wrong way to go about figuring him out. Much like Scholes in the last decade or so (post Verón, basically) he would be someone pulling strings from midfield and assisting the assister, not necessarily assisting himself. Is that too difficult to understand?
He is nothing like the early Paul Scholes. I doubt he will ever score in double figures, that's not what his game is about.
Carrick is an excellent passer, less mobile and primarily concerned with defensive duties, but give him more freedom and he will put some killer balls alright. The reason I mentioned Scholes was that was the more accurate comparison with regards to how ridiculous it is to assess a players' distribution and influence from midfield based on assist stats. Scholes' assist stats were comparable to Herrera's in the last decade, one of our most successful ones ever, yet you took him out of the team and we were completely lost.
As said, he isn't currently a bargain at that price. He isn't quite Scholes, or Fabregas, or Carrick and will probably never be like any single one of them. What he does have is attributes in common with all of them in a very balanced package, which is exactly what would be handy for a club worried about creativity in midfield AND Carrick cover (for injuries and for his age catching up eventually). If you take into account both issues he is a more suitable and sensible option than Fellaini.
I do expect Fellaini to do well for us though and if asked who would have the most impact for us this season it would also be Fellaini. Long-term? Herrera could be instrumental to our midfield for the next decade, while I don't think Fellaini ever will be.
You missed adding that we will slip to 7th/8th this year, bottom half the next and get relegated year after.
Why don't you stick to the argument of that post instead of adding things which doesn't make sense?
To me it seems appropriate flow to the argument given in that post.
Who is implying we'll finish 7th or 8th? Most people are just disappointed that the club failed to sign a very good player and made themselves look silly in the process. The concern is that we were low on creativity in the centre of midfield and that signing Fellaini hasn't done anything to address that. No doubt Fellaini will fill the big Fletcher shaped hole in our midfield when we need a bit of hustle, bustle and drive in the middle but at Anfield and against Chelsea what was missing wasn't energy but invention. Herrera could've provided that and he was keen to come to Man Utd yet the club quibbled over £3 or £4 million rather than just get him. That's what people are miffed about.
That's different, though. That was a question asked while talking about another player where we got a positive answer.
In this case we went to Bilbao, a notoriously difficult side to negotiate with, were told his release clause was the price and still made an offer well below. They showed no inclination to negotiate, so making the offer wasn't a punt, it was in the hope they'd change their mind and we'd meet somewhere in the middle. Which everyone with any knowledge of Bilbao knew they weren't going to.
What's making people think we won't be back for him in January?
Why would United offer 4 or 5 million more in January? I don't see Bilbao reducing their fee.
We currently do not value him at as much as his clause stipulates. Athletic won't budge and we won't budge.
Don't pay 30mi for Ander, but spunk 40 for Khedira. Having Fellaini I would rather spending less in Herrera. He's not better than Khedira is now, but IMO will be. If he has the funds it is worth it I think.
Herrera will be the one replacing Xavi for Spain. He's already better than Kedira and Fellaini, but a bit different as a player. He was the player we really should have signed, hope we still can sign him in january or next summer.
@ antohan
I did get prickly when you referred to me as statsman. Although I have seen him play a few times, I don't feel it sufficient to decide if he is/is not worth a 50% premium on the club's valuation. Indeed, I only researched his stats to try and make sense of your "killer balls" comment., because it didn't strike me that this was a big part of his game.
So essentially, you basically agree with me. The main difference being, you think we should have taken the chance on him turning out to be a £30M player(at least in terms of worth to our team). When, after 2 years of scouting, United didn't, and feel his worth is £20M.
My posts are not aimed solely at you, but include people slating the club over this offer. I have heard the argument that Cleverley has little chance to improve at his age, and yet he is the same as Herrera, 24.
Is Herrera a sufficient improvement on what we have? With all the scouting in the World, that would still be conjecture, until you see how he fits our team.
We may not even be playing with wingers come the end of the season. (I think that may be why Moyes went for productive LB in the window, but that is a whole other discussion).
My gut feeling is that Herrera was on a list of prospects, drawn up by our previous regime, and that is where his valuation came from. That the new lot decided not to go massively above that, with their own knowledge of the player, would be understandable.
To err on the side of caution, for a man following the greatest manager ever, is prudent. We know he will be judged more harshly than anyone, on everything, including signings. Hell, three games in and "we're doomed to miss top 4, and we are amateurs and buffoons in the market!"
Signing another Kleberson/Djembax2,(I'm not stating he is), in the last minute of his first window, for a club record, would've invited huge criticism and vitriol from fans and the press.
All I'm trying to do is balance the discussion. Sorry if I got a bit heated in doing so, but opinion stated as fact, can negatively affect any argument, and some on here have done just that.
I hope we do see him here. Whether that means him being deemed worthy of his clause, or Athletic selling for less. The alternative is wondering, "What if?"
If we identify a target for January (Herrera or not), I think we may be well placed. Our peers have flashed the cash this summer, and our Warchest has barely been cracked open.
I did get prickly when you referred to me as statsman. Although I have seen him play a few times, I don't feel it sufficient to decide if he is/is not worth a 50% premium on the club's valuation. Indeed, I only researched his stats to try and make sense of your "killer balls" comment., because it didn't strike me that this was a big part of his game.
So essentially, you basically agree with me. The main difference being, you think we should have taken the chance on him turning out to be a £30M player(at least in terms of worth to our team). When, after 2 years of scouting, United didn't, and feel his worth is £20M.
My posts are not aimed solely at you, but include people slating the club over this offer. I have heard the argument that Cleverley has little chance to improve at his age, and yet he is the same as Herrera, 24.
Is Herrera a sufficient improvement on what we have? With all the scouting in the World, that would still be conjecture, until you see how he fits our team.
We may not even be playing with wingers come the end of the season. (I think that may be why Moyes went for productive LB in the window, but that is a whole other discussion).
My gut feeling is that Herrera was on a list of prospects, drawn up by our previous regime, and that is where his valuation came from. That the new lot decided not to go massively above that, with their own knowledge of the player, would be understandable.
To err on the side of caution, for a man following the greatest manager ever, is prudent. We know he will be judged more harshly than anyone, on everything, including signings. Hell, three games in and "we're doomed to miss top 4, and we are amateurs and buffoons in the market!"
Signing another Kleberson/Djembax2,(I'm not stating he is), in the last minute of his first window, for a club record, would've invited huge criticism and vitriol from fans and the press.
All I'm trying to do is balance the discussion. Sorry if I got a bit heated in doing so, but opinion stated as fact, can negatively affect any argument, and some on here have done just that.
I hope we do see him here. Whether that means him being deemed worthy of his clause, or Athletic selling for less. The alternative is wondering, "What if?"
If we identify a target for January (Herrera or not), I think we may be well placed. Our peers have flashed the cash this summer, and our Warchest has barely been cracked open.
Understandable.. We however have to take the report as gossiple for this to be true. However i feel it was more to do with the timing we gave ourselves hoping Athletico would just agree without the release clause due to the large amount on the table. With any other club that would be understandable. I don't find it hard to believe though if he had a good 5months we want see the extra £4m considering we was ready to spunk 40 euros on Khadira.
Do bear in mind the same reports which say we value him at 20M state we also offered 26M, bit weird that isn't it?
Yeah, I think that was very much the case, which is why I told you yours was a good point. What I don't get is the idiocy of knowing a star Bilbao players' release clause and bidding a lower figure, it's just a really really stupid idea to have any hope of that working with the transfer deadline so close. "Hey, we'll offer you a fair price for Ander. We need, now you go find a Basque replacement in 24 hours Josu". That's exactly what they have those release clauses there for!
Agree on Moyes having to be prudent, made a very similar argument in the Moyes is right thread. Some insist on comparing with "what SAF would have done", usually overlooking he would have done much the same as Moyes, but also forgetting SAF could get away with fecking up here or there.
I'll bet you could count the number of posters on here who have seen enough of Herrera to make any kind of an evaluation about him on one hand.
Are we using fingers to count, or is every hand a person?
Without having seen enough of Herrera to make a proper judgement of him myself, 20m does seem to be a very low valuation for our scouts to place on him. Do they really value Herrera that much less than Fellaini and Khedira? When you consider the valuation they placed on Fabregas (who we all know is worth much more than the bids we placed) it certainly seems that our valuations of players were somewhat erratic this summer.
Bids and valuation are different things.
The initial low bids for Fabregas need not mean that's how much we thought he was worth. I have no idea how the rocket scientists working hard on our bids found it worthwhile to make such an opening bid, but I don't think Moyes would expect to get anywhere for less than 45-50M. Don't think he would value him higher than that either, mind. Any fee over 50M and he would be unnecessarily placing a Damocles sword over his own head.
Moyes also sure knew that Everton wouldn't sell Fellaini and Baines for 27M, he of all people would be clear how ridiculous an offer that was. 35M would be a fair valuation, 40M would be the minimum offer required for Everton to consider it at the time. Once on deadline day, Baines would have easily gone from being a 15M player to a 20M+ one.
It's actually not difficult to assess how much a player may be worth and how much it may require to land him, I really don't understand why we waste everyone's time making those low bids. Did Woodward drag along his most trusted corporate negotiators to work on transfers? We have really looked completely clueless.
The initial low bids for Fabregas need not mean that's how much we thought he was worth. I have no idea how the rocket scientists working hard on our bids found it worthwhile to make such an opening bid, but I don't think Moyes would expect to get anywhere for less than 45-50M. Don't think he would value him higher than that either, mind. Any fee over 50M and he would be unnecessarily placing a Damocles sword over his own head.
Moyes also sure knew that Everton wouldn't sell Fellaini and Baines for 27M, he of all people would be clear how ridiculous an offer that was. 35M would be a fair valuation, 40M would be the minimum offer required for Everton to consider it at the time. Once on deadline day, Baines would have easily gone from being a 15M player to a 20M+ one.
It's actually not difficult to assess how much a player may be worth and how much it may require to land him, I really don't understand why we waste everyone's time making those low bids. Did Woodward drag along his most trusted corporate negotiators to work on transfers? We have really looked completely clueless.
Let see, 4 months of football for Moyes to make proper analysis of him? He played fantastically well that we concede that 30m was worth it after all? Lots of reason for us to comeback in January if we haven't burnt our bridges with them.
It's the ultimate example of not letting go of the small club mentality. They acted like they were Everton making the bids. Other clubs know United has loads of cash. And when they deal with Everton, they know Everton does not, so the approach will be completely different.
The Fabregas bid seemed like one you would see from Everton.
At the same time, Woodward was described by the BBC as being the Glazers "most trusted lieutenant in England" and a man who helped them put together the buyout. To dismiss the Glazers hand in this mess is to be naive.
Yeah we should have made a huge bid so everyone can see we're a massive club! The BBC don't know the inner workings of Woodward's relationship with the Glazers whatever you may think
The fist principle of negotiation says that you need to open negotiations offering less than you want to pay. However if your opening bid is too low you can offend your partner or make him laugh at your offer. The 25 mil bid was a joke.
I don't think Moyes and his Everton past had much impact on how we went about bidding, that's not his remit or at least it shouldn't be.
TBH, it just looked like a bunch of people whose only understanding of transfers is based on playing CM/FM:
- Start from the "market value" (you never sign anyone at it, ever)
- Make bid public so when the other team rejects it the player starts dropping in happiness
- Make small increments and watch the other player lose happiness as they get rejected (United usually have that effect on fictional players)
- Best case scenario the guy hands in a transfer request and you end up signing him for roughly the intial bid or less
- Worst case scenario the other club will accept when you finally hit the jackpot and you have avoided overpaying
That is EXACTLY what we've done all Summer.
Shitly, though.
IIRC Moyes is known to actually use FM as a research tool, a lot of managers do. Woody using it to plan bidding tactics is probably not wise.
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