Whether he has been good enough or not so far is irrelevant to me honestly. He and Schniederlin are our only chance at having a good midfield in my opinion. Fellaini just simply isn't and never will be good enough and Carrick is slow and old and shouldn't be relied on. If Herrera and Schniederlin can't turn it around this season I think we will really struggle in midfield.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 50
- Goals
- 3
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 15
- Red cards
- 2
- Status
Fellaini and Young are good examples, two players who've had their detractors but got recognition in that period. Something which doesn't seem to be afforded to Herrera.
You seem hung on the word underappreciated, it was just a passing comment and me stating I think he's the second best midfielder we have now with Pogba's arrival.
Paul-Morgan-Ander trio is the best midfield combo imho, all the ingredients in this cocktail. May take a couple of months to gel, but afterwards will let us fly. Not sure what would this mean for Wayne though.
He has been ok at best and underwhelming in general. Obviously I'm not saying it's entirely his fault as LVG just wasn't consistent in selecting him. Herrera could have done much better in the times he was given chances. I mean look at Rahsford, who was shown one finger and he took the entire hand.
This is what I hope to see, but as you say, that doesn't leave a place for Rooney.
I am not sure how it'll pan out for him this season. If Wayne is in the starting XI then it'll be Pogba, Carrick/Schneid & Wayne in midfield.
But, Ander has a right mix of qualities which can be useful. If Rooney is playing badly, then Mou will get Ander to replace him. For me, Carrick, Herrera & Pogba seems to be a nice midfield
But, Ander has a right mix of qualities which can be useful. If Rooney is playing badly, then Mou will get Ander to replace him. For me, Carrick, Herrera & Pogba seems to be a nice midfield
Trouble with Herrera was that van Gaal seemed to not particularly like him. He'd play well and then get dropped, this didn't happen with Rashford.
If they find their best form and finally show up, then yes, I agree. It would be a brilliant midfield actually
Not really. Both in 14/15 and 15/16 Fellaini was performing marginally better than him, first season because Fellaini played really really well (ander played exceptionally too but Fellaini was overall more influential in our season) and second season mainly because Herrera was shit.
While a little could be blamed on van gaal the simple fact remains that Herrera has been largely underwhelming when played. People say he wasn't given a consistent run but he played almost all the games around Jan Feb (maybe 8 or 9 games on the trot) and was largely underwhelming then too.
There's where our opinions differ.
I noticed you tend to lean quite favorably towards Fellaini and a bit negatively towards Herrera. Which is fine, I think it's a bit of a Caf trend anyway. Some people "defend" Fellaini against some (IMO unwarranted at times) criticism and feel someone like Herrera is overrated, so they need to counter balance this by leaning marginally the other way. Not that I'm saying you're doing just that, mind.
I just had a quick look at whoscored's historical stats/ratings for the 2 players over those 2 seasons bolded above, and in fact the season before (Fellaini's first season with us and Herrera's season at Bilboa 2013/2014) and their ratings seem to balance out quite nicely, i.e. there hasn't been much to choose between the 2. I think they've both had periods where they were good, borderline excellent and relatively speaking, shit.
I also agree (disagree with whoscored - that last season Fellaini was better than Herrera. Ratings eh!). But in the end, I think it boils down to preference, style of play etc. Fellaini doesn't have a good reputation and IMO he's also best used further up the pitch, almost as a 10, as opposed to a deep lying CM or even a DM.
It's actually a very interesting contrast between the 2 players because they have a completely different skillset.
On a final note, I've just started using whoscored and "stats" etc. So I'm not sure if they're a good measurement of a player's performance etc. But here are the 2 histories I viewed.
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/22738/History/Marouane-Fellaini
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/71174/History/Ander-Herrera
I don't want it to seem like I'm sticking up for Herrera because overall he just definitely hasn't been good enough so far, but, it's easy to see why Fellaini would do better under LVG than Herrera would. Fellaini doesn't play a very adventurous game at all, he just simply isn't capable of it which definitely suits LVG's style much more than Herrera. Herrera was basically bought and then expected to change the entire way he plays football, I'm not really sure why LVG got him at all honestly. I'm still hoping that with a bit more freedom and confidence Herrera can turn things around here.
Whether Fellaini will be good enough or not is a seperate debate but right now, I trust him way more than Herrera.
I get that but I guess my point was I don't think Fellaini is good enough and I think he's probably been about as good as he ever will be for us. I trust that Fellaini will keep putting in the same very mediocre performances for us that he always has and won't go above that. Herrera has the potential to be the much better player but hasn't shown it for a while. We need Herrera to step it up quite a bit or else we'll be stuck relying on Fellaini which isn't a position I want to find us in.
Trust him to do what?
Haha I suppose I come across as that but in fact I don't actually hate any player who play for us. I quite like Herrera and he can be a valuable member of our squad.
The thing I like about Fellaini though is his determination. August 2014 I think every United fan in unison would have been against Fellaini and Why I stick up for him a bit more than other players is that had that been any other player, they would have been given due credit for a good performance but rarely do I see more than a handful give that and most people seem like they would rather die than say Fellaini played well.
Herrera I think is a good player who can be very good when he wants and I really liked his performances last season. However he didn't really kick on and probably went backwards. It was akin to John stones this season and I was disappointed. I do think he is overrated though as I have seen lot mention him like he is potentially world class which I disagree as he is Henderson level for me. A useful player but not world class.
I like both of them but I don't really think I would worry too much if we sell both or any of them (provided we don't do an LVG and don't buy replacements).
Frankly I would have thought the opposite was likelier. Someone who is from a Spanish academy would be better at possession based game than a Belgian who had been playing in the PL for a team that was mainly following counterattack.
I like that little proviso you have there.Yeah agreed with pretty much all of those. I'm a massive Herrera fan, but like you I try not to dislike any of our players (Rooney constantly being picked and stinking up the place is testing that resolve of mine though
). I think Herrera is capable of much more than he's shown at United, but he was always going to struggle under LvG's regime because it's the polar opposite of what he excelled in at Bilboa. But yeah, hes not world class or anywhere near there, from he's shown with us, the odd few performances aside. Let's hope we get a settled team playing this season though and start playing some good, fluid, attacking football.Herrera takes risks with his passing, Fellaini does not. It's easier to maintain possession if you're constantly turning your back to goal and just making the easiest available pass.
Yeah agreed with pretty much all of those. I'm a massive Herrera fan, but like you I try not to dislike any of our players (Rooney constantly being picked and stinking up the place is testing that resolve of mine though
I have accepted that Rooney won't be sold till he breaks the record so I'm now backing him to do that quick so that he can join an MLS team in Jan
Exactly. I still remember Herrera from Bilbao days and Morgan's pre-United career also looked promising. Pogba is, well, Pogba. Under a much better manager, with much better players around and proper tactics, I can see this trio tearing it up this season.
Yeah, I bought my own bridge building kit myself, so that i can get over it too!I have accepted that Rooney won't be sold till he breaks the record so I'm now backing him to do that quick so that he can join an MLS team in Jan
CS sums those two up really..
Fellaini makes an interception and fecks up a simple back pass, when he could have easily turned up field and passed it forward and gifts Leicester their goal and Herrera makes a risky interception that if he misses Leicester would have been on the break and then two passes after his interception we score the winning goal.
Fellaini took the possession and "safe" approach and we conceded a goal
Herrera took a risk and we scored a goal
And it definitely was a risk. I just watched it again and Blind was still up field after making a run forward, Rojo was forward as well. Bailly was the only one with a chance and he would have been outnumbered so it would have been down to either Leicester fecking up or De Gea making a save.
Just wondering, with Pogba as a midfield partner, is the "adventurous" Herrera necessarily advantageous to a more conservative, defensively minded partner? I see lots of talk of individual merits (I haven't read all the posts though) but surely combinations are more important.
Both aren't particularly adventurous in their passing. Herrera may be marginally better though that's it.
Fellaini had vardy in front of him and 2 players beside him. he had no other option other than pass it back. Though He screwed it up though with his judgement and the pitch.
Herrera was running towarss the opposition goal in the opposition half when he intercepted the ball, Fellaini towards his own goal in our half. Not really comparable situations in this circumstances.
If you see the first half there was an instance where Fellaini dribbled the ball past Okazaki and passed it forward to Rooney who passed it back to Shaw. Not like he doesn't pass forward
Herrera hasn't been but that's because LvG valued guaranteed possession over risks. He was definitely told to cut it out by LvG, he even made a little dig about it in an interview this preseason talking about possession with no purpose isn't beneficial or something to that affect.
To elbow humanity.
I don't understand what makes Herrera is more special than Fellaini in a team. It looks to me that majority fans favour him due to fancy touches that Herrera often made.
If you want a special player we are talking about Pogba who can do everything what these two can do and can't do. Herrera isn't in the category of "must start" for top team. Even the fit Dembele has more things to offer than Herrera. And yet Dembele often lose his starting spot to Fellaini in Belgium.
- Passing range: Herrera's range of passing (15-16m) isn't any different to Fellaini's range of passing (14-15m).
- Passing completion: it's almost the same (83%-84%) in 2015/2016 and (85%-89%) in 2014/2015
- Tackles: Herrera won more tackles than Fellaini in (2015/2016) but Fellaini won more tackles in (2014/2015). And Fellaini played less league games in 2015/2016 than Herrera as he involved more in FA Cup. In 2014/2015 Fellaini and Herrera played almost the same amount of minutes.
- Takes on: Fellaini was better to take on player than Herrera in 2015/2016 but Herrera was better In 2014/2015
- Aerial Duel: Fellaini is more superior
- Herrera is quicker, Fellaini is stronger
- Fellaini can play first touch, Herrera can play first touch
- Fellaini is better to bring the ball down with his chest and Herrera with his feet
- Both players tend to commit unnecessary fouls
If you want a special player we are talking about Pogba who can do everything what these two can do and can't do. Herrera isn't in the category of "must start" for top team. Even the fit Dembele has more things to offer than Herrera. And yet Dembele often lose his starting spot to Fellaini in Belgium.
Spot on! After watching Herrera for 2 seasons i came to the conclusion that he isnt and will never be first team player. He is Quick, but kinda lightweight. Can tackle but no strength. Unlike Blind who also isnt that strong but just knows how to tackle in the right time and place. He doesnt have that. Now we got Pogba (Next to Carrick i think) and he is quick, strong, decent tackler, nice passer, creative. I dont think will be here in 2/3 seasons time.
If you buy a player and then work out how to use him in a way that is the complete opposite of how he was effective in his previous team. Why would you buy him in the first place?.. If a player runs for a long time you don't tell him to spare his energy because that's what fits your system. If a player can tackle well then you don't put him in the final third and tell him not to move because that is what fits your system. If you're 5'8" striker plays better facing goal then you don't stick him up front, tell him not to move, be ahead of and face the ball at all times then hump the ball at him because that's what fits your system.
I honestly don't know where I am going with this, I was just explaining the fundamental issues with a "vangling".
Not really. You buy players because you see qualities in them that you want. You can't really buy players and replicate their former club's formation because it will not work. We bought Herrera from Bilbao, Shaw from Southampton and Blind from Ajax all three played in different systems. You can't change the system for one player in this system but you expect them to have the basic qualities and talent to adapt their game according to a new system in such a way that they don't lose their productivity. Shaw did it reasonably well though he hasn't played a lot of games for us. Herrera also did this well enough in his first season but it would seem that adapting to the system here made him lose a bit of his productivity here (to be fair his most productive season was under LvG too). That's what is the distinction between excellent players and decent players.
We have had lot of players who came after good performances struggled to adapt to our game even under SAF. Veron, Young, Kagawa etc.
Brilliant ... Have been saying this all along
---------Morgan---------
--Herrera-------Pogba--
This is how we should have our line up. Simple
It has to be this. If we are still relying on Carrick, Rooney or Fellaini in midfield then there is going to be serious problems.
Statistics don't always paint a fair picture. Marruoane Fellaini's statistics are, on paper, generally good. In our 4-1 defeat to Man City under Moyes, Fellainis stats suggested he played better than Yaya Toure. Look it up if you want, but the truth was that anyone with EYEBALLS could see that Fellaini just chased shadows the entire match and was played around like he was a giant mop headed training dummy.
Ander Herrera has been trained and coached to play van Gaals system- there were even quotes suggesting that van Gaal was annoyed with him after various games in his first season DESPITE Herrera clearly being far and away our best player by a mile in those matches. Which is of course why he never had a consistent run that season.
But the one thing that I would say about Herrera that in a way endlessly endears me to him
is that he always, always performs better in big games. Herrera is one of those rare characters that seems to elevate his game when the pressure is on. I think Mourinho will like him.
Ander Herrera has been trained and coached to play van Gaals system- there were even quotes suggesting that van Gaal was annoyed with him after various games in his first season DESPITE Herrera clearly being far and away our best player by a mile in those matches. Which is of course why he never had a consistent run that season.
But the one thing that I would say about Herrera that in a way endlessly endears me to him
is that he always, always performs better in big games. Herrera is one of those rare characters that seems to elevate his game when the pressure is on. I think Mourinho will like him.
If we're going to play with one CM at the base of midfield it has to be Carrick. Schneiderlin has never played that position before. He had Wanyama behind him during his best PL season so far and has never looked remotely capable of bringing the same qualities as Carrick during his United career to date.
Didn't Schneiderlin play his first season in the Premier League has the holding player before Wanyama joined? I might be misremembering, I can't remember last week never mind a few years ago!
One thing that is certain though, he doesn't have the on ball abilities that Carrick has. Equally though, we're going to have to trust Schneiderlin to do that role at some point as Carrick won't play every game.
Can we stop this "Schneiderlin has never been a #6" nonsense. It's been done to death, and he definitely has, for club and country. Pre-Wanyama, and even in Wanyamas first season when he wasn't an immediate starter, Schneiderin played at the base with Davis and Ward Prowse ahead. He was very good.
It's a myth that he had Wanyama behind him too. Southampton played 4231 with no concrete #6 in most cases. They were a solid pair as double pivot. They had a great understanding and knew when to drop deep or go forward to cover each other. Both were capable two way players, but were at their best in defensive areas of the pitch. That double pivot was the reason they had the 2nd best defence in the league that season. They were rock solid through the middle. Look out some of their average-position and heat-map charts from that season. Over the course of a game, one was rarely ever deeper than the other.
Carrick comparisons are another debate, but he has been the deepest midfielder plenty.
It's a myth that he had Wanyama behind him too. Southampton played 4231 with no concrete #6 in most cases. They were a solid pair as double pivot. They had a great understanding and knew when to drop deep or go forward to cover each other. Both were capable two way players, but were at their best in defensive areas of the pitch. That double pivot was the reason they had the 2nd best defence in the league that season. They were rock solid through the middle. Look out some of their average-position and heat-map charts from that season. Over the course of a game, one was rarely ever deeper than the other.
Carrick comparisons are another debate, but he has been the deepest midfielder plenty.
Spot on, this.
Happy birthday, Herrera! Hoping for a rebirth under Jose
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