[cheeky_backheel]

Is thos the same Barca team that gives games to Andre Gomes?

Yeah right.

and Andre Gomes is a starter? same Andre Gomes that is booed by the fans and seems to be on his way out?

 

[K2K]

and Andre Gomes is a starter? same Andre Gomes that is booed by the fans and seems to be on his way out?

The same Andre Gomes was at the centre of a transfer tussle between Real and Barcelona last season. If he's good enough for them, so is Herrera.

Herrera was linked to Barca even before he joined us. People just love having a pop at our ownn players in their quest to replace them with the latest flavour of the month.

Bayern for example have Xabi Alonso who is on his last legs starting for them.

They are many United players that would get sufficient game time at such teams. Herrera based on his perfomances being one of them.

 

[Akshay]

What part of not a good passer do you not get? Plus why keep bringing Kante into it? I've never mentioned him once??

You haven't given any substantiation for why he's not a good passer though. He doesn't play exclusively short passes, he plays mostly forward passes, he's not erratic, he has lots of assists for a central midfielder, and he creates chances. You say he's not good enough because he's poor on the ball and doesn't sit deep and shield a defense. That logic could equally be applied to a player like Kante, so I'm asking if you have the same opinion of him.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Don't understand how anybody can say he doesn't ever turn up in the big games. Really strange opinion.

 

[Akshay]

If he cannot get into the top teams, and United want to be one of the top teams, then you should not have a player of Herrera caliber in your team. If Herrera is in United starting XI, it simply cos we have not found the opportunity to sign a better player.

I didn't mean he wouldn't get a game at those teams, merely that he's not head and shoulders above their players either. He's good enough and in the current United team that means he's one of our best.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

The same Andre Gomes was at the centre of a transfer tussle between Real and Barcelona last season. If he's good enough for them, so is Herrera.

Herrera was linked to Barca even before he joined us. People just love having a pop at our ownn players in their quest to replace them with the latest flavour of the month.

Bayern for example have Xabi Alonso who is on his last legs starting for them.

They are many United players that would get sufficient game time at such teams. Herrera based on his perfomances being one of them.

Getting game time and starting are two different things, and the question is about a starting spot.

Gomes was 22, showed potential and thus gathered some interest. He has gone to barcelona and failed to live up to that potential so far and is likely on his way out -eof

Bayern have Alonso and they are looking for replacement, but that replacement will be better than Herrera.

Herrera is not some teenage potential at 27. This is likely going to be his peak. Yes he can be a squad player but he is simply not good enough to be a starter in a top team.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I didn't mean he wouldn't get a game at those teams, merely that he's not head and shoulders above their players either. He's good enough and in the current United team that means he's one of our best.

and that is my point - in the current squad. But that current squad is far below what other top teams field particularly the starting XI.

The fact that a player is the best player among average players does not make him any better than he truly is, and Herrera is a good player (good enough to be on the bench of a top team) but not good enough to start.

 

[Obiorahking_]

I want to reply to your comments but I'm not sure its worth it as you've spouted some shite in this thread so far. Herrera is far away from being as good as you think he is.

First. Let the record state that I meant going off of this season, I think that(with the exception of Real, Atletico, Bayern, and maybe PSG) he could get into any Starting XI. Apologies for any confusion.

Second, I really hate posts like this. Instead of proving your point you succumb to Ad Hominems. What I said wasn't far-fetched. You said Herrera is great at pressing high and winning the ball and then also claimed that he doesn't have the nous to sit in front of the back four and clean up play. Do you know what other players fit that bill? Moussa Dembele, Arturo Vidal, Michael Essien and virtually all B2B midfielders.

 

[Akshay]

and that is my point - in the current squad. But that current squad is far below what other top teams field particularly the starting XI.

The fact that a player is the best player among average players does not make him any better than he truly is, and Herrera is a good player (good enough to be on the bench of a top team) but not good enough to start.

Fair enough I think we're splitting hairs at this point. If we get to the situation where players at Herrera's level are among our weakest I'll be delighted, but we're a long way off from that right now. Given that he's been one of our best this season, he deserves praise.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Thiago is not the best CM in the world

I said "one of"

Other players have broken into the NT at a much younger age

This statement assumes that if you break into the National team at a young age, then that demonstrates your quality? Correct? I assume you've never heard of kids who break out early in there careers but never live up to their potential or late bloomers?

cos one of the players at a midfield you think he could get into is up for consideration.

Hence the "one of". Is their entire midfield getting nominated for POTY?

As a CM, Dembele > Current Yaya> Herrera. They are better in almost every aspect of the game, except for Yaya lacking pace.
Dembele's influence on spurs midfield is similar to Pogba in ours - they are just totally different without him. He is essentially a poor mans Pogba. Herrera is not close.
Current Yaya is more debatable as he does show his age, but I will still take him over Herrera.

Toure v Herrera is an interesting one because Herrera provides 3x of what Toure provides with his back to his goal and he stinks against teams that press him hard, hence why he got found out against Monaco. Offensively, he outmatches Herrera in terms of goal scoring and direct forward passing, but comes up short when it comes to creating chances consistently.

Herrera has outmatched this season's Dembele on both ends of the pitch. He has score more, created more, broke up plays more, defended more etc... In fact, he judging by his Match log, he hasn't been a consistent starter for Spurs.

You are right when it comes to Matic, Wayama, and Fernaninho( Although he has been crap this year). They are all defensive mids, which Herrera is not so it won't make sense to compare them. My fault. But my inital premise still stands, based on his recent performances, he could get into any team not named Atleti, Bayern, Real, and arguably Barca.

 

[Obiorahking_]

I do think Herrera is poor at 6 and would benifit from a good 6 behind him like Fabinho or even Romeluo (Southampton) could do a job at a cheaper price (not saying he's better but he'd compliment both Pogba and Herrera).

I agree. Herrera is not the midfielder you want sitting in front of your defense.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Bayern have Alonso and they are looking for replacement, but that replacement will be better than Herrera.

It better be as Alonso and Herrera play different positions.

 

[Classnordic]

I would much rather have Dembele instead of Herrera in our united team, without a doubt.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

It better be as Alonso and Herrera play different positions.

At Bilbao, Herrera played a similar role as the DLP in a midfield 3, alongside De marcos and Iturraspe

 

[Obiorahking_]

For those who forgot the incredible work he has done this year, here is him against Spurs where he was our most important player. Making key tackles and interceptions while providing the defense splitting pass for Mkhitaryan's goal and setting up Zlatan for an easy goal(which he blundered). All this against a team whose midfield he apparently can't get into.

 

[El Jefe]

First. Let the record state that I meant going off of this season, I think that(with the exception of Real, Atletico, Bayern, and maybe PSG) he could get into any Starting XI. Apologies for any confusion.

Second, I really hate posts like this. Instead of proving your point you succumb to Ad Hominems. What I said wasn't far-fetched. You said Herrera is great at pressing high and winning the ball and then also claimed that he doesn't have the nous to sit in front of the back four and clean up play. Do you know what other players fit that bill? Moussa Dembele, Arturo Vidal, Michael Essien and virtually all B2B midfielders.

Yes I did say that but I also said he doesn't excel at either his attacking or defensive side of the game and is not able to build up play in our midfield.

I have nothing against box to box midfielders, I think they're excellent but Vidal excels at both attacking and defending, Essien excelled at defending and also had the ability to control the midfield and Dembele is the dictator of the midfield in almost all Spurs games.

My criticism of Herrera is that he doesn't excel in the either the attacking or defensive facet of the game but is good at both. Due to this, he needs an extra person next to him to do each of these roles.

I believe we should go 4231 next season. We don't get enough goals so I believe we need an extra attacker in place of Herrera while signing a specialist DM to play alongside Pogba. Obviously Herrera will play his fair share but I don't agree with the notion that Herrera can't be replaced in our team.

 

[Lawman]

You haven't given any substantiation for why he's not a good passer though. He doesn't play exclusively short passes, he plays mostly forward passes, he's not erratic, he has lots of assists for a central midfielder, and he creates chances. You say he's not good enough because he's poor on the ball and doesn't sit deep and shield a defense. That logic could equally be applied to a player like Kante, so I'm asking if you have the same opinion of him.

Kante is a better player than Herrera. My theory that Herrera is not a good passer is I've seen him try to play longer passes and he's erratic at it. He has a good range 10-20 yards. He lacks a picture in his head like Carrick or Scholes had or even Pogba. He often refuses a forward ball for a short sideway pass. Yes he can do the slide rule pass if it's on. But he has very little creativity or goal threat or defensive know how he is not a special player he is a busy bee a little Jack Russell who chases the ball down but in my opinion that's not good enough for us going forward.

 

[Obiorahking_]

At Bilbao, Herrera played a similar role as the DLP in a midfield 3, alongside De marcos and Iturraspe

Matic used to be a CAM at Benfica, now he is the "best DM in the PL". Whats your point?

 

[Lawman]

Yes I did say that but I also said he doesn't excel at either his attacking or defensive side of the game and is not able to build up play in our midfield.

I have nothing against box to box midfielders, I think they're excellent but Vidal excels at both attacking and defending, Essien excelled at defending and also had the ability to control the midfield and Dembele is the dictator of the midfield in almost all Spurs games.

My criticism of Herrera is that he doesn't excel in the either the attacking or defensive facet of the game but is good at both. Due to this, he needs an extra person next to him to do each of these roles.

I believe we should go 4231 next season. We don't get enough goals so I believe we need an extra attacker in place of Herrera while signing a specialist DM to play alongside Pogba. Obviously Herrera will play his fair share but I don't agree with the notion that Herrera can't be replaced in our team.

Spot on

 

[cheeky_backheel]

For those who forgot the incredible work he has done this year, here is him against Spurs where he was our most important player. Making key tackles and interceptions while providing the defense splitting pass for Mkhitaryan's goal and setting up Zlatan for an easy goal(which he blundered). All this against a team whose midfield he apparently can't get into.

He plays in a three man midfield alongside Pogba and Carrick and yet tottenham still dominates possession.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Matic used to be a CAM at Benfica, now he is the "best DM in the PL". Whats your point?

Matic was converted to DM/DLP at Benfica. But the point is that Alonso and Herrara's role/position are not as different as you implied - I can have Herrera replace Alonso just fine.

 

[Obiorahking_]

He plays in a three man midfield alongside Pogba and Carrick and yet tottenham still dominates possession.

Again with the shaky logic. Based on what you just said and the context of the discussion, I assume that:
1) We are supposed to be dominating possesion because the team with dominant possesion has the more dominant midfield.
2) Tottenham maintaining possession is Herrera's fault

Both are false because Dembele was outclassed by Herrera and was completely ineffective. Herrera was MOTM that game.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Matic was converted to DM/DLP at Benfica. But the point is that Alonso and Herrara's role/position are not as different as you implied - I can have Herrera replace Alonso just fine.

Okay Matic was converted same way Herrera has assumed a different role at our club. Do you think its okay that we measure Matic's performances against those of other CAMs because that was a position he played in another lifetime? Of course not.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Spot on

No. Not Spot on @El Jefe
Nobody would play the likes of Vidal, Essien,Matuidi, or Rakitic in a 442 or 4231 because neither possess the ability to be the consitent primary creative midfielder of a team, like 8s today such as Fabregas or be a pure defensive midfielder who shielded defense such as Matic. That is not a bad thing, that is not a bad thing as all mentioned players are/were essential to their team's makeup just as Ander Herrera is.

As you are hinting at, it comes down to how we are going to progress next year. If we go a 4231, which I hope we don't, then Herrera needs to be dropped and we need to get a proper anchor of the defense. If not, then we still need to get another DM who can glue the midfield and provide energetic legs.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Again with the shaky logic. Based on what you just said and the context of the discussion, I assume that:
1) We are supposed to be dominating possesion because the team with dominant possesion has the more dominant midfield.
2) Tottenham maintaining possession is Herrera's fault

Both are false because Dembele was outclassed by Herrera and was completely ineffective. Herrera was MOTM that game.

Who dominates possession is often the clearest indication of who was in control of the midfield. Hence Herrera could not have outclassed Dembele if Dembele's team dominated possession.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Who dominates possession is often the clearest indication of who was in control of the midfield. Hence Herrera could not have outclassed Dembele if Dembele's team dominated possession.

Why is control of the necessary an indication of who is playing better? They didn't make anything of it but Herrera and Pogba did. By your logic Atleticos midfield is trash as they are a counter attacking team who concede possession in the bigger games.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Why is control of the necessary an indication of who is playing better? They didn't make anything of it but Herrera and Pogba did. By your logic Atleticos midfield is trash as they are a counter attacking team who concede possession in the bigger games.

They concede possession cos they are against a superior midfield. It doesnt make them trash, only that the opposition is better. For example, against Alaves, Atletico had >60%possession.

You dont concede possession willingly as less possession means more attacking opportunities for your opponent which increases the likelihood of conceding a goal and losing the game.

I fail to get your objection - are you saying a better midfield would have less possession or that possession and control of the midfield are uncorrelated?

 

[AR87]

Kante is a better player than Herrera. My theory that Herrera is not a good passer is I've seen him try to play longer passes and he's erratic at it. He has a good range 10-20 yards.

As opposed to Kante who is a great passer? Jesus. Then again you also can't seem to accept Herrera's a big game player.

Some people in this thread need to get a grip. Herrera has been one of the best midfielders in the league and there's not one I think could perform in the different roles he's had to perform this season. Would love to know which other midfielder in the league could mark Hazard out of a match and also create a goal with a world class through ball.

 

[El Jefe]

No. Not Spot on @El Jefe
Nobody would play the likes of Vidal, Essien,Matuidi, or Rakitic in a 442 or 4231 because neither possess the ability to be the consitent primary creative midfielder of a team, like 8s today such as Fabregas or be a pure defensive midfielder who shielded defense such as Matic. That is not a bad thing, that is not a bad thing as all mentioned players are/were essential to their team's makeup just as Ander Herrera is.

As you are hinting at, it comes down to how we are going to progress next year. If we go a 4231, which I hope we don't, then Herrera needs to be dropped and we need to get a proper anchor of the defense. If not, then we still need to get another DM who can glue the midfield and provide energetic legs.

Of course its all to do with the make up of the team. If we had Vidal in our team we could play a 433 as Vidal is a goal scoring CM that dominates both phases of play. However we don't have him and Herrera is not that good or important that our shape should be based on him.

The gap in quality from our best midfielder Pogba to our second (Herrera) is just too big. Our passing has been diabolical in the recent games without him. We clearly need another midfielder better than Herrera in the squad, whether its a defensive, attack minded or B2B CM.

You've shot down every bit of criticism of Herrera so far. Do you honestly believe he can't be improved on? Also have you been impressed in how he's used the ball in games without Pogba?

 

[Obiorahking_]

You dont concede possession willingly as less possession means more attacking opportunities for your opponent which increases the likelihood of conceding a goal and losing the game.

I take it you didn't watch any bit of last season's United did you? We dominated possession but yet couldn't create shit all of last season, just like Tottenham's central midfield when they played us.

My objection is that I posted a video of Herrera's MOTM performance against Tottenham where he outclassed Dembele. He split there defense with a pass, made several key defensive stops, and created for his teammates. Dembele didn't. Comprendes?

 

[Obiorahking_]

Herrera is not that good or important that our shape should be based on him.

He has been our second best if not best performer this season. Without him, how do you think we would have fared against Chelsea and Tottenham and virtually every other major game this season? I highly doubt it. Other than Kante, there is not a single player in his position I would replace him with. It dosen't make sense that we just drop him next season unless we are getting a really big name like Griezmann.

The gap in quality from our best midfielder Pogba to our second (Herrera) is just too big

Yet Herrera has outperformed Pogba this season, how does that work?

My main criticism of Herrera this year is his beyond subpar finishing. He should have at the minimum 10 goals this year, but his finishing has let him down despite the fact that he scored bags of goals in his first season.

lso have you been impressed in how he's used the ball in games without Pogba?

Pogba is the key offensive catalyst of this team. In my mind he is a true 8 who give the ball to to create for others. Herrera isn't that, just like Kante, Rakitic, Essien, Vidal etc... so its no mystery that when you put him with a two man midfield where he has to be a playmaker in a team filled with inconsistent young bottlers that he won't flourish.

It goes both ways though, Pogba has always looked at his best with Herrera in the game. A primary example would be the Chelsea game in the FA cup where our midfield was flourishing until Herrera got a BS red card. Then Pogba was burdened with more defensive responsibility despite Mourinho bringing on an extra midfielder to help.

 

[Paxi]

I would much rather have Dembele instead of Herrera in our united team, without a doubt.

Really? Please elaborate on that?

 

[Jib]

Of course its all to do with the make up of the team. If we had Vidal in our team we could play a 433 as Vidal is a goal scoring CM that dominates both phases of play. However we don't have him and Herrera is not that good or important that our shape should be based on him.

The gap in quality from our best midfielder Pogba to our second (Herrera) is just too big. Our passing has been diabolical in the recent games without him. We clearly need another midfielder better than Herrera in the squad, whether its a defensive, attack minded or B2B CM.

You've shot down every bit of criticism of Herrera so far. Do you honestly believe he can't be improved on? Also have you been impressed in how he's used the ball in games without Pogba?

I fully agree.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Would love to know which other midfielder in the league could mark Hazard out of a match and also create a goal with a world class through ball.

And score one too.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I take it you didn't watch any bit of last season's United did you? We dominated possession but yet couldn't create shit all of last season, just like Tottenham's central midfield when they played us.

My objection is that I posted a video of Herrera's MOTM performance against Tottenham where he outclassed Dembele. He split there defense with a pass, made several key defensive stops, and created for his teammates. Dembele didn't. Comprendes?

Its like saying cos a team scored the only chance they had makes their attack better than the opponent,who created more chances, had more shots on goal and only failed to score cos of the GK making saves.

Th midfield is the only area where similasr parts of each team directly face off (as opposed to attack vs defense). You cannot claim to outclass somebody in midfield when you failed to control the midfield over the course of the game. A moment of brilliance does not make up for it.

tu capisci?

 

[Obiorahking_]

Its like saying cos a team scored the only chance they had makes their attack better than the opponent,who created more chances, had more shots on goal and only failed to score cos of the GK making saves.

Th midfield is the only area where similasr parts of each team directly face off (as opposed to attack vs defense). You cannot claim to outclass somebody in midfield when you failed to control the midfield over the course of the game. A moment of brilliance does not make up for it.

tu capisci?

Oh boy.
Herrera created 4 chances that game and created a defense splitting pass that won us the game. Dembele didn't.
Herrera had several key defensive plays that game. Dembele had none( hence the reason he was taken off for fecking Harry Winks)
Herrera was pivotal. Dembele was nonexistant.
Herrera outclassed Dembele.

I don't know why you are fighting so hard to disprove Herrera's MOTM performance that day. Would you rather Dembeble play that game instead of Herrera?

 

[POF]

What an odd direction this thread is going in. As this season has shown, a club like United needs a big squad and cannot have just 11 first team players. Under Fergie, United usually had 16-18 players who would all consider themselves first team regulars and once Jose builds his squad they need to get back there again.

This United squad needs 4 central midfield players of first team level. They currently have 2 of the required standard (Pogba and Herrera). Unless they sign 3 better players in the summer, Herrera will be a key player next season.

Jose clearly planned for a Pogba/Fellaini midfield 2 this season and it was disastrous. Herrera solved a huge problem in a position that seemed like it would be unnatural to him. His transition to that role this season has been phenomenal. There isn't another player in the squad who can do what he does in midfield and when a big game comes around he's the go-to guy.

He's versatile, can operate in multiple midfield roles and follows instructions to a tee. He's a manager's dream.

 

[Yagami]

Don't understand how anybody can say he doesn't ever turn up in the big games. Really strange opinion.

I'm with you there. Alongside maybe Valencia, he's the only outfield player I expect to play well against the bigger teams. Everyone else is up and down in terms of whether they turn up for said game or not.

Liverpool away he was amazing. That might still be the best individual performance of the season for us so far. City at home he was our best player and, when introduced in the 2nd half, we actually started playing football. Chelsea at home, a goal and an assist as well as his usual all round play. Celta Vigo home and away he was good. In other big games such as Arsenal at home, the COC final, Spurs at home, even though I didn't think we/he were as good as the aforementioned games, he was still probably one of, if not our best player.

When trusted by van Gaal he always turned up in the big games under him, too. To be fair, unlike this season, we generally played well in the big games as a whole anyway.

 

[khoazany]

Good player. I really hope we give Fellani a farewell this summer an having CM options of Pogba/Herrera/new CM/Pereira/Carrick for next season.

 

[Akshay]

Th midfield is the only area where similasr parts of each team directly face off (as opposed to attack vs defense). You cannot claim to outclass somebody in midfield when you failed to control the midfield over the course of the game. A moment of brilliance does not make up for it.

Controlling the game is not the same thing as having more possession. The midfield is also not the only part of the team responsible for possession. Furthermore, a single player can have a good day while the unit he is part of doesn't. For example, a certain defender can play well while everyone else around him makes mistakes left and right. In other words, to say Spurs had more possession therefore Dembele > Herrera is non sequitur.