American Politics

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Cali Red said:
And liberals do want to cut spending on these things? Not a chance. The line of liberals with military interests in their states that were lining up to suck up to Hagel was hilarious. So if you want to talk farce, I'm with that.
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You just don't get it, do you? Conservatives have claimed the throne as the fiscal hawks and the stop spending party, when the farce is that they spend even more. Just look at Bush's rein, and even Reagan's. And do you get why liberal's suck up to Hagel? It's not the pro military interest. He's been a republican who realizes just how stoopid and immoral republicans have been with the military, and how much they've been spending, and who actually was in war as opposed to the gaggle of chicken hawks running the republican show. And he obviously doesn't want Israel dictating American foreign policy in the middle east. Do you even get all this? He's a recovering hawkish republican.

I think liberal's are politically afraid to attack military spending because right wing America will go apeshit and tar them being weak and anti patriotic.
 
Nobby style said:
You just don't get it, do you? Conservatives have claimed the throne as the fiscal hawks and the stop spending party, when the farce is that they spend even more. Just look at Bush's rein, and even Reagan's. And do you get why liberal's suck up to Hagel? It's not the pro military interest. He's been a republican who realizes just how stoopid and immoral republicans have been with the military, and how much they've been spending, and who actually was in war as opposed to the gaggle of chicken hawks running the republican show. And he obviously doesn't want Israel dictating American foreign policy in the middle east. Do you even get all this? He's a recovering hawkish republican.

I think liberal's are politically afraid to attack military spending because right wing America will go apeshit and tar them being weak and anti patriotic.
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Wow, you're all over the place here. But let me try and break down our stream of conciseness a little.

I agree with you about conservatives/repubs being completely false about their spending. It's the primary reason I registered as an independent quite a number of years ago. They completely lie about what they will do with taxes and spending.

As for the libs sucking up to Hagel, you really think it's because he's a 'recovering' republican? Please, I can't believe you're that naive. It's because they don't want any of the defense cuts to come at the expense of their states constituents. It's essentially a 'not in my back yard' policy. They all want the military cut just not from their state, again hypocrites.

And who or what doesn't want Israel dictating foreign policy? Hagel? He'll have zero impact on that. Israel is an ally in the that region and it will be Obama that will dictate how ALL affairs are handled with respect to that area. Hagel will be his mouthpiece. And that's the way it should be considering it's the most volatile region of the world right now.
 
Nobby style said:
Here's a good article on incarceration in the US. Right Wing fiscal hawks love to spend on this. And if you ask an honest right winger why the prison population its so incredibly high, you'll get similar answers as to gun rights . . . it's cause of the "diversity."

U.S. prison population dwarfs that of other nations

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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I'm a believer if someone commits a crime they should pay for and since most of them can't pay back then they should serve in prison.
 
MrMarcello said:
According to a right-wing nutter I'm debating with this morning, President Obama is a Marxist.

Sigh.
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Right wingers who like to bloviate about Obama being a socialist, marxist, communist etc usually don't know what those terms mean and get their info from the likes of Glenn Beck. Challenge them to expound on what their term of choice means and they will fall apart....just like when Chris Matthews challenged some right wing stooge on Neville Chamberlain and appeasement.

from about 2:15 on.....

 
Raoul said:
Right wingers who like to bloviate about Obama being a socialist, marxist, communist etc usually don't know what those terms mean and get their info from the likes of Glenn Beck. Challenge them to expound on what their term of choice means and they will fall apart....just like when Chris Matthews challenged some right wing stooge on Neville Chamberlain and appeasement.

from about 2:15 on.....

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To be fair..., I used giving away half of Czech Slovakia as an example of why Britain should have been more aggressive during the second world war, and how doing so would have saved millions of lives, when I was arguing against that Irish poster who believed that the UK was as bad as Nazi Germany during that time. And obviously he failed to come up with the Battle of Mers-el-Kébir or the Bombing of Dresden.

But I'd struggle to say what Neville Chamberlain did in 1939 when under that kind of pressure, although having said that he was already making references to "appeasement" so he should have known what he was taking about...

Carry on.
 
adexkola said:
"You are all illegals"

:lol:
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Well actually he is wrong, because the Native Americans had no immigration laws preventing Europeans or anyone else from coming to the "New World" At least nobody has ever shown me any evidence of these laws. So if there is no law against it, then it can not be considered illegal.

Not that I am siding with the protesters, I welcome immigration and feel we need some immigration reform to reflect the reality of immigration and our economy. It needs to be fair, unbiased, and make sense. Then of course once that reform is made into law, anyone coming in illegally, well they deserve to be arrested and kicked out (again only AFTER we have immigration reform that makes sense).
 
JustAFan said:
Well actually he is wrong, because the Native Americans had no immigration laws preventing Europeans or anyone else from coming to the "New World" .
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White mans' immigration laws you mean, of course. I love it, it's not valid cause the Europeans didn't write the law or agree upon it. And when all the white mans' treaties eventually did come along, they were honored by the US to the letter, ha ha. Yeah, right.

I've always thought there's no way immigration laws can be enacted in the US without a major participation of Native Americans.
 
Nobby style said:
White mans' immigration laws you mean, of course. I love it, it's not valid cause the Europeans didn't write the law or agree upon it. And when all the white mans' treaties eventually did come along, they were honored by the US to the letter, ha ha. Yeah, right.

I've always thought there's no way immigration laws can be enacted in the US without a major participation of Native Americans.
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Where did I say WHITE MANS laws? Oh right no place. Where did I say Europenas needed to write the laws? Oh right no place. Nice try though. :lol:

Fact remains the European immigrants were not illegals. They may not have been wanted, but that doesn't make them illegal does it.
 
JustAFan said:
Where did I say WHITE MANS laws? Oh right no place. Where did I say Europenas needed to write the laws? Oh right no place. Nice try though. :lol:

Fact remains the European immigrants were not illegals. They may not have been wanted, but that doesn't make them illegal does it.
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How about we let a Native American deem if they were "illegal" or not, as opposed to one of European descent. Your definition of "law" and "illegal" sounds quite one sided.
 
Nobby style said:
How about we let a Native American deem if they were "illegal" or not, as opposed to one of European descent. Your definition of "law" and "illegal" sounds quite one sided.
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If only a time machine were available :lol:

Perhaps we should apply this theory all over the world and let whoever is decided to be the "natives" kick everyone else out. Afterall world history is not full of that sort of thing happening so how much trouble could it be. :lol:

Be a bit rough on those of mixed lineage, perhaps an ax or some saws would solve that problem.

Of course since Native Americans as they are called, represent about 1 to 2% of the US Population, I see what you are saying. Let's give over complete power in the US to 1 to 2% of the people, based of course on their race/ethinicity. :lol:
 
Red Dreams said:
Europeans went and took whatever they wanted. made treaties which they then broke numerous times.

no moral ground to stand on tbh.
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Nobody has claimed any moral high ground, I just pointed out the gentleman in the video was not quite correct.

As I said myself, the immigration laws in the US need an overhaul, they need to make sense given reality. The whole "they took our jobs" BS, well it is just BS isn't it. I think the US will be much better off if proper immigration reform comes into play, letting millions of human beings who are a benefit to our nation not have to live in fear of being kicked out pretty much at random.
 
JustAFan said:
Nobody has claimed any moral high ground, I just pointed out the gentleman in the video was not quite correct.

As I said myself, the immigration laws in the US need an overhaul, they need to make sense given reality. The whole "they took our jobs" BS, well it is just BS isn't it. I think the US will be much better off if proper immigration reform comes into play, letting millions of human beings who are a benefit to our nation not have to live in fear of being kicked out pretty much at random.
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with all due respect, conservative white Amercians do take the moral high ground when they have none.

that is the entire point.
 
JustAFan said:
Sorry thought you were following along in the conversation Nobby and I were having, so I responded more for myself and the very specific item I was talking about.
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the entire discussion and the point made is the hypocrisy and ignorance of those who don't know their own history.

All the the rest about needing immigration reform and such is stating the obvious.
 
Red Dreams said:
the entire discussion and the point made is the hypocrisy and ignorance of those who don't know their own history.

All the the rest about needing immigration reform and such is stating the obvious.
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Indeed :D


Yes I know most people here and every where like to frame every discussion around right vs left, teabaggers vs. sane people, etc etc. Myself , when it comes to internet discussions, I just express my own opinions, try not to speak for others, try not to assume what others are saying beyond what they actually say.
 
Red Dreams said:
sorry fellas....

do you think if these 'illegals' where of European stock...there would be all these protests?
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Nope there is no denying the racist attitude of most, especially the loudest, of the anti-immigration group. Even though from what I have read there is a large illegal population in the US who have come from Europe and by that I mean are mostly white. You seldom hear anything from that side about them.

Now of course their counter arguement to that, as some of them have unconvincingly told me before, is "Well look at where MOST of the illegals come from." To me that just sort of proves the point that it is skin color that is bothering them the most. Plus keep any of them talking long enough and the racial slurs will come out.
 
Ramshock said:
Native Americans >>>> us white european motherfeckers!
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dangerous to generalise...but by an large the fact is...their populatins have been decimated...in some cases systemtically.

we have a lot to answer for as a nation....but having said that many of us, whatever our race are serious about doing what is right.

I think we will have very good immigration reforms this year....if the GOP decide not to be pricks.
 
Ramshock said:
Native Americans >>>> us white european motherfeckers!
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This is kinda silly. The Native Americans didn't have nation states and were, for the most part, nomadic. They're in no position to call anyone 'illegal'.

I mean, I think the idea of restricting migration is crazy, but this is just grasping at non-existent straws.
 
Raoul said:
Right wingers who like to bloviate about Obama being a socialist, marxist, communist etc usually don't know what those terms mean and get their info from the likes of Glenn Beck. Challenge them to expound on what their term of choice means and they will fall apart....just like when Chris Matthews challenged some right wing stooge on Neville Chamberlain and appeasement.

from about 2:15 on.....

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The best is when he gets flustered and starts calling him Nevilland Chambers.
 
Why would we need Native Americans to support any immigration laws? They can voice their opinion just like everyone else but I don't see why we need to seek out their thoughts and give their opinion extra weight. Fact is, people have migrated, invaded, killed, assimilated etc since time immemorial.

Neither the protesters nor the guy with the stroller were alive back then. We should make the best laws possible for the country as it is now with an eye toward the future. Yeah, we fecked over the natives. Give them affirmative action, give them social projects, give them unused tribal lands, but the fact is that we aren't going to give back New York, we aren't going to give back Chicago and we aren't going to give back Los Angeles. Them's the breaks.
 
Eboue said:
Why would we need Native Americans to support any immigration laws? They can voice their opinion just like everyone else but I don't see why we need to seek out their thoughts and give their opinion extra weight. Fact is, people have migrated, invaded, killed, assimilated etc since time immemorial.

Neither the protesters nor the guy with the stroller were alive back then. We should make the best laws possible for the country as it is now with an eye toward the future. Yeah, we fecked over the natives. Give them affirmative action, give them social projects, give them unused tribal lands, but the fact is that we aren't going to give back New York, we aren't going to give back Chicago and we aren't going to give back Los Angeles. Them's the breaks.
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This white washing of history is precisely what leads to disastrous and immoral foreign and internal policies and endless warring and exerting insidious American exceptionalism. The first paragraph could be spoken by a true tea bagger. The best possible laws? According to who?

What's needed is a change in the fundamental look at this country and its history and not a white washing "you ain't getting 'em back, them the breaks" mentality. Many non Americans say, you got your twin towers knocked over and 3,000 people murdered . . . "thems the breaks."
 
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