All Time ODI Cricket Draft SF 2: NM vs Crappy
- Thread starter Norris
- Start date
He was MOTM in that match, a WC semi final, so its about context, not everything is about match figures or stats. He is someone you call upon to break a partnership and turn a match. As erratic as he is, his Eco rate is hardly that higher than Bracken. I know who out of those I would have in my side, one man can be a match winner, other will be a supporting member at best.
8-0-31-4. vs NZ WC Semi 2007.
Oh yeah.. i had completely blocked 2007 WC from my memory, I remember Jaya having a stormer in that match as well now
I think Anwar has gotten pretty unfair treatment this draft, but fine if people just wanna go by stats in seamer friendly conditions then someone like Hayden does not hold up that as well.
Hayden's career ODI average in Oz is 38.38 (given that it is home conditions for him, it should be much higher IMO), in Eng 24.83 and in SA 32.23. (SR all these places is below 75 as well). That would suggest that he is not at his best in similar conditions to this match as well.
In swinging conditions, having solid batsmen like Lamb and Chanderpaul are an advantage. This is a bowling pitch. Anwar won't last long, and it will expose his middle order. If Crappy loses early wickets, the game is over for him. I have much more solidarity, and simply better bowlers. We will contain and chase.
Also, I'm sorry but Murali was better than Warne. We can talk about his WC semi finals, but let's talk about finals. their records are almost identical, with Murali having played more games. Murali also played deeper into the batsmen friendly era. If you are voting because of Warne, I think that's a mistake IMO.
My 5 bowlers are better as a unit, and I have more solidarity. I can't speak bad about Viv or Kaills, but he bats till 5!!! He has Taylor at 6 and then all rounders. In real life, on a bowling wicket, this would be a straightforward win due to the poor batting depth on the other side. Anwar was weak in swinging conditions, and his playeres will have to reign it in because of early wickets.
Also, I'm sorry but Murali was better than Warne. We can talk about his WC semi finals, but let's talk about finals. their records are almost identical, with Murali having played more games. Murali also played deeper into the batsmen friendly era. If you are voting because of Warne, I think that's a mistake IMO.
My 5 bowlers are better as a unit, and I have more solidarity. I can't speak bad about Viv or Kaills, but he bats till 5!!! He has Taylor at 6 and then all rounders. In real life, on a bowling wicket, this would be a straightforward win due to the poor batting depth on the other side. Anwar was weak in swinging conditions, and his playeres will have to reign it in because of early wickets.
I'll only be able to make a few posts, so good luck @crappycraperson and thanks @prath92 . I'll be back in a bit.
I rate Anwar highly, but he's against the best bowler the game has seen.
That was not aimed at you but in general. Most have discounted him due to his away stats (even though his record in England is very good). If that is the logic most have followed then Hayden should be under scanner as well.
haha. Bracken's career Econ is 4.41, Akhtar's is 4.76. Bracken was once ODI Cricketer of the year. He also was ahead of Bond, Malinga and all in ODI rankings in 2008. You may choose Akhtar over Bracken but you would choose wrong. For instance, he had figures of 7-2-15-1 in WC 2007 SF vs South Africa, opening the bowling and getting G smith bowled in the third over.
Anyway I dont think its insulting for Bracken to call him a supporting member. thats what Bracken has to do. Complement a top bowler. He did that well with Mcgrath and he would do that extremely well with Akram and Roberts.
Hayden has also averaged 46 in NZ where Anwar was poor.
-My middle order simply has better batsman than you. To claim otherwise is pure falsehood.
- Eh, if anything I have better batting strength. Cairns has played plenty of big innings for NZ and Kapil Dev is no clouch either. It is not all about stats. Name one Flintoff innings better than Cairns 100 in the champions trophy final.
- What about finals? Warne was MOTM in 1999 WC final as well. I see Murali's ODI record is better but I would simply have Warne in my 11 every time because he has shown time and time again that he is capable of turning an even unwinnable match. Regardless I am not interested in Warne vs Murali debate. It's pointless IMO. I have just highlighted Warne's match winning performances. Don't see why you want voters to discount that?
- I have the better bowling options. If Bracken/Flintoff has an off day, who are you relying on?
- Hayden's record in Eng (best known for swinging conditions) is worse than Anwar. Nothing great in Oz (home conditions!!) or SA either.
TBH I am not going to respond to you since according to you every player you have is or was best in the world at something. There is no point in arguing against logic like that and saps all the fun out of these matches. You can keep at it. I will respond to any points @NM or neutral voters might have
Some notes:
- I said mine was deeper, not better. Your 3/4/5 is god-like. Only a fool would argue It's what's above and below it I don't like. I can see your middle order being exposed early.
- Warne's final record is avg of 24 and Murali is 25 when he played in 10 more finals, including some in the batting era. He isn't an edge for you here
- You have MORE bowling options, not better ones. The great Aus team played with 4 bowlers a lot. Quality > Quantity
- Hayden is 38 in Aus, and 52! in NZ having played 20+ games there. Don't discount that. I haven't used selective stats and even said Hayden didn't do well in Eng in my write up.
As a whole, I'm more likely to win. On a bowler friendly pitch, having 5 front line batsmen is madness, especially with Anwar likely to fall early.
I also don't rate Malinga and Akhtar as much as most.. Kohli will eat Malinga for breakfast. He's one of your frontliners, and he will be destroyed. The individual match up is in my favor.
Hmm That was your logic isnt it? Cairns is top class and better than Flintoff because he had a century against Indian bowlers in a Champions Trophy Final. Shane Warne was way better because he bowled better in semi finals and finals and Muralitharan wasnt as good even though he took at least 15 wickets in 2003,2007 and 2011 and was better in wickets,average and economy in ODI career. Shoaib Akhtar is a better bet than the "supporting cast" bracken because he was influential in a SF in 1999. For some reason, you go by single games here and there and then claim "if he is better can you find a better knock from". I thought thats how you wanted to discuss to be honest.
@crappycraperson i do think @prath92 ripped your argument. He is aggressive, but I think both of you are making similar claims. I'd like this game to be a gentleman's game. No need to go all Aussie sledging like @KM and @Samid did 
Where's everybody else? This is a good game, but with only one outcome
You wouldn't even be in the final if these two followed your example of 'not voting as a matter of principle'. Hypocrite. Aussie sledging ftw!
Did we both vote for KM? You can vote here if you'd like. I gave my reasons clearly in the thread..
Good job continuing the OptaJoe speak. Legend.
Malinga and Akhtar aren't up to par here IMO. Kohli vs Malinga will be a bloodbath, just like in real life.
Disagree with the whole post. If you lose early wickets, you would LOVE Chanderpaul coming in to solidify the innigs. They will solidify and Flintoff/Dhoni will finish off. How are we reliant on Kohli to anchor the chse when MS Dhoni has done it many times, including the WC final since you seem so keen on finals
If you lose early wickets, you don't have a lot after Kallis/Lloyd. Taylor is a walking wicket against the bowlers here. I'll give you Cairns, but he won't last in these conditions and neither will Kapil.
As usual, I'd agree with this. I think Kallis is overrated in ODIs though.
I win it with the bowling. Do we really think Akhtar and Malinga deserve to be here?
With Malinga, I'm guaranteed to score runs. None of my bowlers allow runs to be given away that way. None.
Murali is surely a better ODI bowler than Warne? Better economy, better average, better strike rate, more 5s more 4s (wickets in an inning)
Pretty much. He waas a better bowler, but Warney was a biggere personality. I don't see a way I don't chase his total..
This is the same rehash of Imran vs Vivs argument. Kohli has mauled Malinga on couple of occasions on flat decks, we are not playing in similar conditions here.
Talking about Akhtar whilst you big up Bracken is ridiculous. He was a pure match winner for Pak at his peak. His numbers actually tailed off at the back end of his career.
My pace attack has - Akhtar, Dev, Malinga, Kallis, Cairns
No weak one there. I also stand by my assertion that Dev turned out to be a better ODI bowler than roberts.
Disagree with the whole post. If you lose early wickets, you would LOVE Chanderpaul coming in to solidify the innigs. They will solidify and Flintoff/Dhoni will finish off. How are we reliant on Kohli to anchor the chse when MS Dhoni has done it many times, including the WC final since you seem so keen on finals
So are you promoting Dhoni over Chanders and Lamb? My argument was that Kohli is key for your chase and here he won't be pure batting conditions but instead is likely to be exposed to Akhtar, Malinga and dev early on, in seaming conditions.
The whole point of having a solid middle order is that you won't be able to breach it. Not sure even Llyod will be called in early. Even if I lose 2 openers, Kallis and Richards will be the rocks for the innings.
And that last statement has to be laughable.. Dev and Cairns won't last in these conditions but Dhoni will be at his best? Dhoni's weakness against quality pace bowling in bowler friendly conditions is well known. He, like Kohli, is in his element in batsmen friendly pitches.
Poor argument. Heck I can discount Malinga and I still have enough firepower in the bowling attack. I am not seeing how your attack is so much better than me, only Akram gives you a slight edge that is neutralised by lack of bowling options for you compared to me.
In any case, like I said in the last matches, batting is more critical in limited overs cricket. Bowlers can always win you matches as well but on average a side with better batsmen will prevail most of the time.
If you go by stats then sure but it is Warne has better pedigree in bigger matches, that too from losing positions.
NM smartly trying to push Viv away from the convo..
Best player on the pitch!
Best player on the pitch!
- Akhtar was a pace merchant. In swinging conditions, a bowler like Bracken would do better
- Dev beetter than roberts? Jog on mate. In real life, Dev waas well below Imran. Only in India do we disagree
- Re Dhoni: 1. I never said he waws being promoted. I said he would finish up once they solidify. Please read . The ball isn't going tto be moving like craazy when he comes in
- Only Akram? Head to head, Akram/Roberts/Bracken/Flintoff/Murali is better than any 5 you are. The stats will back it up too.
If you go by stats then sure but it is Warne has better pedigree in bigger matches, that too from losing positions.[/QUOTE
- Prove Warn'es better pedigree? If you look at finals, he averages 1 run better. OMG so much better
Re: viv - I'm not ignoring him. I praise dyoue 3/4/5 early on, but apparently you had trouble reading it.
Kohli vs Malinga
- Akhtar was a pace merchant. In swinging conditions, a bowler like Bracken would do better
- Dev beetter than roberts? Jog on mate. In real life, Dev waas well below Imran. Only in India do we disagree
- Re Dhoni: 1. I never said he waws being promoted. I said he would finish up once they solidify. Please read
- Only Akram? Head to head, Akram/Roberts/Bracken/Flintoff/Murali is better than any 5 you are. The stats will back it up too.
Bracken as better than Akhatr is just laughable. I am not even going to address that.
I specifically said that Kapil Dev was a better ODI bowler than him. Don't think that is particularly controversial. As my write up said - "During the period between May 1983 and March 1986, when India won the World Cup and the World Championship of Cricket, he averaged 31.25 with the bat and 20.39 with the ball, taking 69 wickets in 47 games." That's as good as any you can expect from a bowler.
Regarding Dhoni, you brought up WC final where he came in at number 5 ahead of likes of Yuvraj. You also brought up the fact he can anchor the innings. Not sure how he is doing that unless he is in there before 20th over at least.
If it was just about stats, we should not have polls. Just have a comparison of stats and declare team winners on basis of it.
So.. your argument about Kapil is that during his PEAK, he was as good as Roberts around his entire career with the ball. If I picked Robert's peak, he would appear significantly better. I wouldn't do that if I were you.
I never said Bracken is better than Akhtar. if you would read, I said a bowler like him would do better in swinging conditions. But yes, on a career in ODIs, he did have a better career. Akhtar was a flash.
Regarding Dhoni - I said he has the opportunity to do both. Theh captain will bat to the situation - just like real life.
You still haven't answered how your batting will react in a crisis or the simple fact that your bowlers aren't as good as mine though.
Aussies usually won their matches though!
@crappycraperson i do think @prath92 ripped your argument. He is aggressive, but I think both of you are making similar claims. I'd like this game to be a gentleman's game. No need to go all Aussie sledging like @KM and @Samid did
I wanted to post the "Mauka Mauka" ad after I defeated him, but then he showed class and posted good luck message to me after the voting ended. cnut.
The one thing I don't like about close games is that people seem to vote just to keep it a tie. Makes me annoyed
The way I see it is that Crappy's middle order has the class to take control and put in a competitive total. His openers are serviceable but I think Anwar with the bounce and Smith's style of batting will be cramped.
It's his middle order that will stand out and added by Cairns/Dev at the end. NM's openers on the other hand are better and in the run chase will get off to a good start which is crucial. However his middle order to me is not as good because Crappy has 3 greats while NM has 1 great and two serviceables. Kohli is dynamic, wants to keep things ticking fast, whereas those two are less frenetic and could eat balls as neither can pinch singles and twos as Kohli does.
Lamb was the type who would be quiet for a while and then serve a dishing. I don't think bowlers in this draft would allow for that to happen though. Dhoni on a green pitch will be a different proposition and I doubt he'd do so well.
I shall re-visit my vote later.
It's his middle order that will stand out and added by Cairns/Dev at the end. NM's openers on the other hand are better and in the run chase will get off to a good start which is crucial. However his middle order to me is not as good because Crappy has 3 greats while NM has 1 great and two serviceables. Kohli is dynamic, wants to keep things ticking fast, whereas those two are less frenetic and could eat balls as neither can pinch singles and twos as Kohli does.
Lamb was the type who would be quiet for a while and then serve a dishing. I don't think bowlers in this draft would allow for that to happen though. Dhoni on a green pitch will be a different proposition and I doubt he'd do so well.
I shall re-visit my vote later.
Eh? I already said that Akram's edge is pretty much nullified by your lack of viable extra bowling options. Other than Akram, I prefer my pace attack easily. Warne vs Murali I have already said I won't compare but I maintain that Warne is more likely to turn a match.
I have also already said that my middle order would see to my team stabilizing under any 'crisis'. I mean you have llyod coming in at 5, someone who scored 100 off less than run a ball in WC final after his side was 3 down early on.
So.. you keep bringing up one match, but get upset when Prath does the same. Bit of hypocrisy there. Dhoni did it in a WC final too. Kohli has done it everyday, and Shiv has made a career of surviving while the other end falls. Lamb and Flintoff are playing in conditions very similar to where they were at their best, but you just ignore them.
I didn't even mention Akram in that post. Seriously, do you read what you write?
You prefer Malinga over my quicks?
So.. you keep bringing up one match, but get upset when Prath does the same. Bit of hypocrisy there. Dhoni did it in a WC final too. Kohli has done it everyday, and Shiv has made a career of surviving while the other end falls. Lamb and Flintoff are playing in conditions very similar to where they were at their best, but you just ignore them.
I didn't even mention Akram in that post. Seriously, do you read what you write?
You prefer Malinga over my quicks?
That one match is good evidence of his capability of surviving a crisis that you brought up. I did not make any hyperbolic claims of a player being 100 times better than one of the best cricketers of all time or try to big up an average player at best.
I mentioned Akram since you asked me to about the bowlinh comparison.
Malinga is clearly better ODI bowler than Bracken and Flintoff, to claim otherwise is to admit serious bias. Bracken has gone from a solid bowler from your last game to being a world beater here. He is not that much better than Damien Fleming, who I dumped out of the 11. It is absolutely dishonest how you want to discredit perhaps the best ODI bowler of current era, whilst at the same time big up likes of Kohli and Dhoni; all because those 2 get to feast on highway pitches with shorter boundaries on which the same bowler is at a clear disadvantage.
Kohli may have gotten better of Mlainga but all this disparagement of him is ridiculous. He had the best yorker in the game in last decade, was the best bowler at death and was go-to bowler for Lanka for taking wickets at critical junction.
That one match is good evidence of his capability of surviving a crisis that you brought up. I did not make any hyperbolic claims of a player being 100 times better than one of the best cricketers of all time or try to big up an average player at best.
I mentioned Akram since you asked me to about the bowlinh comparison.
It is absolutely dishonest how you want to discredit perhaps the best ODI bowler of current era, whilst at the same time big up likes of Kohli and Dhoni; all because those 2 get to feast on highway pitches with shorter boundaries on which the same bowler is at a clear disadvantage.
Kohli may have gotten better of Mlainga but all this disparagement of him is ridiculous. He had the best yorker in the game in last decade, was the best bowler at death and was go-to bowler for Lanka for taking wickets at critical junction.
Lasith Malingaa is not the best ODI bowler of the current era.. Nope. I'd be interested to know what the neutrals think. A guy who gave up easy runs the best bowler around? Nope.
In the draft itself, he was picked ahead of Akhtar, Roberts, Marshall, Walsh. Even someone like Aldo picked him in the QF reinforcement round. You are making it sound like if Sreesanth is playing in this semis.
Well I don't like him, to put it bluntly. So obviously I'm picking on him. I was shocked when you picked him in the replacement pool
Malinga must be the most overrated cricketer around. Shouldn't be anywhere near a SF in an all-time draft. Diabolical.