Is there any chance we can re-arrange matches slightly? I'm going to be at my girlfriendson Saturday evening so will struggle to get in a contribute or argue. If anyone doesn't mind swapping I could do with it being on a weekday evening?
All-Time Fantasy Draft
- Thread starter antohan
- Start date
Hardly.
Anto..is it possible if I play on thurs(if cutch is ok with it) or tomorrow as will be at work(from four onwards) so wont be able to contribute at all.
If someone (and KM) is willing to swap, no problem, but that sounds protracted.
Do bear in mind they are 24 hour polls so Sat evening shouldn't be a major issue so long as it gets started early. I can see how your romantic evening could be spoilt banging on about Baresi and Figueroa though
Alternatively, could be done Sunday if KM is fine with that. Then we get the pool set up and start picking reinforcements on Monday.
My god, what are you on about mate. We are giving Pele freedom in a number 10 role, it's you who wants to shackle him into playing as the leading forward. Everyone else has said the exact opposite. Neeskens is right where we want him, in a 2 vs 2 midfield battle, something he will completely thrive off.
And the 1970's Holland team.. FFS. Good luck selling that, the most fluid footballing side in history isn't easily copied.
I will swap with paceme. I am extremely busy tomorrow- will not be able to contribute to the discussion.
Me and NM will swap with you mate, we are both really busy throughout the week.
edit - beat me to it.
Neeskens is right where we want him, in a 2 vs 2 midfield battle, something he will completely thrive off.
If you think doing a lot of defensive running in the number ten role is 'freedom' then go for it, I'm just telling you as I see it.
You're not utilising Neeskens fully IMO, he works best with two midfielders around him.
If we were talking about someone like Scholes then I'd agree - not a defensive player at all but he'll do his bit in that area for sure. I just completely disagree on Netzer. He possesses no defensive attributes. What you're doing is shackling Pelé to unshackle Neeskens while making the team even less solid defensively.
Why not swap with KM and paceme for Saturday?
Before this keeps escalating, let's agree on something:
- No more than two games per day, easier for voters to keep track of what games are active and not being too noisy
- We must be done by Sunday
Neeskens is right where we want him, in a 2 vs 2 midfield battle, something he will completely thrive off.
And the 1970's Holland team.. FFS. Good luck selling that, the most fluid footballing side in history isn't easily copied.
Most teams in this draft have the personelle to be considered as good as or better than that 1970s side.
Totally ignoring the value of chemistry and synergies required to play total football by training together for ages and developing that understanding. If taking a group of 11 individual greats made your team as fluid and flexible as that team was then everyone would have been doing it since then, fact is it has been rarely achieved. Totally illogical reason.
I will swap. Work is killing me. Need a weekend game.
This. I LOL'd at Fergu' post. Made no sense. That team was not about the players only.
Yeah, disagree on Netzer by all means, that's a personelle issue. But my general point is clear, they could've done with another midfielder in there to get the best out if the rest of the players.
Genuine question: why is playing Pele upfront alone considered to be 'shackling him'? Was Cruyff shackled in the 1970s Holland team? Messi in Barcelonas? With the likes of Boniek and particularly Blokhin in the team I don't think Pele would be shackled at all.
Blokhin Pele Boniek
Tardelli Netzer Neeskens
Tardelli Netzer Neeskens
I thinks that's great.
Edited
The other parties need to agree though.
Assuming paceme and KM are fine with Sunday, why not swap MJJ and NM?
Is KM fine with playing tomorrow?
Is Iso fine with playing Saturday?
MJJ and Cutch bumped to Sunday if Cutch is fine with it.
PMs sent
The other parties need to agree though.
Assuming paceme and KM are fine with Sunday, why not swap MJJ and NM?
Is KM fine with playing tomorrow?
Is Iso fine with playing Saturday?
MJJ and Cutch bumped to Sunday if Cutch is fine with it.
PMs sent
Ok, but the formation is hardly outlandish is it? Looks like a normal 433 and the players they have can undoubtedly make it work.
I'm not sure if you think the total football team was a once off or not, personally I believe that team dictated a lot of what has followed, with roaming attackers etc and I think it's not as crazy as you think it is for other great players to replicate it.
Every system needs training.
Ok. Who are you playing, is it ok with them? Are you in the morning or evening?
And can someone PM KM, don't finish work until 5 and its a pain pm'ing on this phone.
I think you have struck a very good balance in that team with a 4-4-1-1, NM. Bith your forwards being extremely hard working and capable of dropping deep helps that a lot. Both of them did that without compromising on their attacking prowess throughout their careers, so its a very good combo up front. Although I don't rate Tardelli as high as a lot of you, nothing to do with this draft, think he was a brilliant player, but he got insanely popular due to that WC goal and celebration. Good partner for Neeskens nevertheless. With those two, usually it would be more than enough work rate, but against Lothar and Vieira you might just get found out a bit, but then again Pele's and KH's qualities would benefit you a lot.
Most teams in this draft have the personelle to be considered as good as or better than that 1970s side.
Yes.. That's not what I am talking about though. You can have amazing players but not pull off that style of football, otherwise every top European side would have replicated it at some point.
That Dutch and Ajax side was extremely rare in having that fluidity and teamwork. In a draft like this I don't think any voter would accept you just stating you will play Total Football - no matter how good your players are.
I don't remember Cruyff ever playing up top for Holland. It was Rep doing the stuff a striker would usually do while Cruyff just drifted about anywhere, spending most of his time in midfield. Messi plays in a team with unparalleled possession dominance, he very much would be shackled if he played on his own up top for pretty much any other team.
Regardless of that they're unique systems that have been constantly tweaked until they found the perfect combination of players and style of play to make it work. You can't just chuck them all in there and say "Pelé's playing the Cruyff role".
Regardless of that they're unique systems that have been constantly tweaked until they found the perfect combination of players and style of play to make it work. You can't just chuck them all in there and say "Pelé's playing the Cruyff role".
Nm and co beat me, plus I cant do weekends as working on sat as well and going home on sunday. Anyone else want to swap(again if cutch is ok with it)?
I'm still at my girlfriends on sunday Anto. Its a long distance thing so I stay a few days.
The point I was stressing on was that to play a fluid and flexible game like they did, you need to develop an unmatched understanding. Cruyff in one single attacking move moved from left back to right back to a center mid and then played the decisive pass, and every single player in the team knew he was going to do what he was going to do and moved accordingly hence never allowing the team getting outnumbered in any area. It is the same with the Barca team, the reason they carry forward in triangles seamlessly is because every single player in the team is aware that at no point should a player be left out of a triangle, as soon as one triangle breaks it is replaced by another, and that is how they move.
Total football is more than having complete footballers in the team who are capable of playing at multiple position. The most important aspect is the team chemistry and understanding. Xavi leaves a pass from a corner, Iniesta doesn't have to wait to see if he is going to do that or not, he knows, and he has already made his move to take the shot. There is no hand sign, no signal, they do it thousand times together everyday and they know how to react every single time. I would suggest you to watch some videos of Barcelona's training and see how Xavi and Iniesta work around each other. It is not because they are world class players only, not because they have an amazing technique and can receive and pass the ball withough wasting an inch and not because they have great intelligence and understanding of the tactics of the game, but most importantly because they can make the team so much greater than the sum of the individuals, that it is unreal.
Yep, Cruyff started as a center forward in his career but soon left that role as in his words, "it was too easy scoring goals".
But that's where he gets represented on most formation graphics, thus illustrating my point: just because it looks as if Pele is upfront alone, doesn't mean he will be shackled. He will of course still be doing what he likes to, with Blokhin and Boniek supporting him.
I didn't think it was like you to get so bogged down in how the formation comes across.
If Pele has he skill set to do what Cruyff did, then why cant the manager ask him to play the Cruyff role? If the rest of the team fits then it's seem fair to me, especially in a draft!
No team in this draft is going to match that level of understanding in that case, so relatively it will still be fine.
It isn't something you can 'relatively' have IMO. If you don't pull it off then you're just going to have confused footballers running around getting into each others way.
The most bizarre thing about that suggestion is that you are expecting players who don't only come from different schools and different philosophies, but also from different era to become a cohesive unit. Tardelli played in much more defensive setups than Neeskens did, Pele had a completely different dynamic to his sides, then you have Carvalho who excelled in Mourinho's sitting at the back tactic. How in the world do you expect such a wide variety of players to simply combine and make the team play total football ? Had they all been from the same academy or institution even if from different eras, it could have been understandable. But it is simply impossible.
Have PMd the suggested swap to KM and Iso.
I suggested Sunday to Cutch, but apparently a no-go. They'll get back to me with confirmation and/or alternatives.
MJJ, if we start early on Friday you should be fine, it's mostly the first few hours and the last ones that count.
I can't swap I'm afraid, it's that narrow-window time of the month when the wife starts banging on about enlarging the family
Exactly why it was illogical to suggest that their team should emulate the Holland team of the 70s. It is not possible.
It depends.
If someone said Fachetti would do what Krol did, I'd have no issues. If someone said Pele could do what Cruyff did, I'd have no issues. If someone said Blokhin could do what Rep did, I'd also be fine with that. If you took it to extreme lengths and perhaps said Hansen can do what Haan did, then someone would pick you up on it. Don't underestimate your players, most of them, had they been Dutch would've thrived in the 1970s Dutch system.
Also, I'm not just assuming that your eleven players just turned up on the day and decided to play together. When I see your team, I look at it almost as a club side, that is I analyse them assuming they have worked together for a while and how they would fit with each other given the right coaching etc.
See above.
Seen. I wouldn't like to add anything further. If you think the best tactic for his team is emulating the Dutch side of the 70s, then good luck to them if they happen to listen to that advice.
I think your confused about my point but I'll let it go.
Have a look at thier formation from the 1970s though, it's pretty normal by today's standards, and it doesn't require 'total football' to its fullest extent to make it work. All it needs is great footballers, which you have.
When you are done looking at formations, watch a couple of games and you will see what massive differences lie in the tactics of that and present day setups.
Seen plenty of games.
Doubt that, tbh. Chelsea and Barcelona have both played 4-3-3, hardly anything that the similarity in formations suggest.
Have PMd the suggested swap to KM and Iso.
I suggested Sunday to Cutch, but apparently a no-go. They'll get back to me with confirmation and/or alternatives.
MJJ, if we start early on Friday you should be fine, it's mostly the first few hours and the last ones that count.
I can't swap I'm afraid, it's that narrow-window time of the month when the wife starts banging on about enlarging the family
Lucky Bastard.Attack left, defense and midfield done.