All-Time Fantasy Draft

Theon said:
:lol: That is exactly what I was saying though mate! There isn't much in it. I was responding to you saying this,




I don't think it's comfortable either way, could understand if you think Figueroa is better etc, but it's not a real mismatch or anything.
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You know, the kind of names we have had so far and will have till the end of the draft, all comparisons will be that tight. All names are greats in their own rights. Hence in such a tight pool of players, small differences become large. Once you enlarge the scale, small distances become large, if you can understand what I'm on about here. Ordinarily I can get away with saying that either one of them will be a great choice to construct an all time 11 of some sort, it wouldn't matter. While here we should be more careful and consider things beyond honours and reputations. In that context, I think the Chilean deserves more than just a "better but not by much" while everyone who ever saw him play or played with or against him couldn't forget his greatness.
 
mightberight said:
Hristo Stoichkov
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Fascinating stuff so far! I love these draft threads, boring bastard that I am. Nothing to choose between the sides this early on, but I think mightberight has set himself up as a darkhorse. Two top notch forwards in Stoichkov and Puskas, and he's still got all the major nations to choose from.
 
I don't think he was better at all, like many people who considered Passarella better.

It's a close thing like Scirea/Baresi, I can see that you would like Figueroa more given what you have said about appreciating that style of defending for example, so that might be what tipped it for you, whereas others might love the mentality of Passarella for example.

All I was saying was that it's an extremely close thing that could be decided either way. I'm not knocking your views at all and you have backed them up really well, but I personally think you were making it out to be clear cut when it isn't like that in reality.

Your point about what would happen if Figueroa had won the world cup was very good by the way. I suspect you are right that he'd be regarded even higher than he is now, but at the same time Passeralla actually did captain Argentina to the trophy so deserves credit for managing to do so.
 
Some interesting picks there. Annoyed to see Falcao going so early when he didn't seem to count for that much in my 50s team. Cracking player and a monster midfield from Brwned. The team to beat so far along with Dan who is looking very strong. Cutch could be very strong as well although how Robbo fits in will depend on his partner. Fergus'son's midfield has gone from potentially awesome to rather lightweight, he needs a third man there to do the dirty work now.

Scirea or Baresi: I'm a Baresi fan. I see why some have such a crush on Scirea, but Baresi can be paired up with pretty much anyone and make it work. He was the one defender post-70s/80s my grandfather had a lot of time for, for all the others he thought they were all a bit shit and could have never managed to play 2 vs up to 5 when the half-backs lost their men, in the old days ("when it's four or five of them at the back they should never concede any goals anyway", he ranted). I'm talking about someone who was a founder of the Uruguayan FA and was at four World Cups before they were on TV (1930, 1950, 1954, 1962). He knew a thing or two about who was any good.

Passarella: When I had him I got a lot of stick for him being slow, slight, short, you name it. Overdone if you ask me.
 
antohan said:
  • A Nation is defined as one that has or has had a national team participating in FIFA competitions (e.g. no Catalunya).
  • If a player has played for two NTs, the NT of birth applies (e.g. Di Stefano is Argentinian).
  • If a player played for a multi-nation NT (e.g. Yugoslavia), their NT is defined as that of their city of birth. This is so that there is a greater pool of nations to pick from. No debate on ethnicity or heritage will be entertained. It's a football draft, not a politics debate.
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How does this apply to many of the African-based Frenchmen, out of curiosity? If they played for France but were born in, say, Morrocco, which is relevant?
 
Brwned said:
How does this apply to many of the African-based Frenchmen, out of curiosity? If they played for France but were born in, say, Morrocco, which is relevant?
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presumably french
 
antohan said:
Passarella: When I had him I got a lot of stick for him being slow, slight, short, you name it. Overdone if you ask me.
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The main thing was that your Passarella-led defence took you to the final in the 50s competition and any of those criticisms were fairly minor point-scoring exercises rather than genuine concerns about his quality.
 
Theon said:
The criticisms?
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Yes, and regarding Passarella or Figueroa all that really matters here is paceme got the right one to partner Baresi.

And that is, I believe, what Aldo is getting at. If I had to choose one out of the two, without knowing his partner, I would invariably pick Figueroa. He would work with pretty much anyone, while Passarella wouldn't.

The real shame is that someone who could pick any pair in one go took him. Bastard.
 
We do know his partner though, because we are picking him.

And that's not what Aldo said, he was just comparing them player to player IMO.
 
Brwned said:
How does this apply to many of the African-based Frenchmen, out of curiosity? If they played for France but were born in, say, Morrocco, which is relevant?
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If they got a full international cap for the African team of birth yet then went on to play for France they are considered Moroccan/Algerian/Senegalese, etc.

It mostly applies to older players back when you could play for more than one side: Di Stefano played for Argentina, Colombia and Spain, for example so it needed to be addressed. It was very common with South Americans who moved to European teams, not so much with Africans. Unfortunately for Fergus'son Eusebio never played for Mozambique.

In short, if a player has played for more than one NT (and by NT we mean one which has participated in FIFA competitions, not the Catalunyan or Basque NTs which have never been recognised as such) the one representing the country he was born in is taken into account.
 
Theon said:
We do know his partner though, because we are picking him.

And that's not what Aldo said, he was just comparing them player to player IMO.
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IF you get him, yes. Anyhow, I'm not in any way knocking Passarella, just pointing out Figueroa didn't need a whole load of complementing, while being able to cover for a partner's weaknesses.
 
Theon said:
We do know his partner though, because we are picking him.

And that's not what Aldo said, he was just comparing them player to player IMO.
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Both, as I did mention in my post that I would take Figueroa if I have to take a man who I think would do well in all situations against all types of oppositions. I just view Passerella as the one having more limitations, out of those two.

Player to player I rate Figueroa higher, but I never really view any player without imagining his surroundings and scenarios. When I take randomly a few scenarios in my mind with different types of forwards with both those CBs having different sort of partners, who do I think would have a better series of performances? I think that would be Figueroa. He would not be exposed as easily as Passerella while in reality you would need a very skillful attack to expose Passerella in the first place. But in comparison, I find Figueroa trumping the Argentine in most situations.

Brings me back to the fact that I rate intelligence and tactical awareness quite high. There are a lot of great CBs in the history of the game who made their name by make last ditch tackles perfect for the clips or pictures, and even though they mastered it, relied on it day in day out and pulled it off, for me I would never rank them as high as CBs who can anticipate and clear the danger before it occurs. It is a cliche but if a defender is getting into the limelight a lot in a game, he is probably not having a good game even if he keeps the attack out for the game and gets everything right. To be a top defender you should be able to think much faster than your opponent and react before he attacks you. Or as Figueroa would say, "The area is my house, and I decide who enters it."
 
Some more stories about some of the players picked already:

Falcão
The leader of one of Brazilian football’s greatest dynasties, Falcao inspired Inter to five state championships and three Brazilian titles, the Porto Alegre outfit becoming the first club to achieve that feat since the inception of the Brasileirão in 1971. The highlight of those national league successes came in 1979, when Internacional went the whole season unbeaten, a feat yet to be matched in Brazilian football. And such was their consistency that only once in Falcao’s six years in the club's first team, in 1974, did they finish outside the top four.

Though a difference of opinion with national team coach Claudio Coutinho led to him being left out of the Brazil squad for the 1978 FIFA World Cup Argentina™, Falcao was by that time universally recognised as “the greatest Brazilian midfielder of all time."

Not known for lavishing praise on anyone, even Tele Santana was moved to express his admiration after watching Falcao guide his side to victory over Internacional de Limeira back in 1979. Speaking to reporters as he left the stadium, the then Palmeiras coach said: “I saw a player produce the perfect performance today. Falcao won the game."
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Elias Figueroa
His eagerly awaited top-flight debut arrived in April 1964, and it was after a game later that season against Colo Colo that he earned the first of his many nicknames. Describing his performance, a local radio commentator said of the precocious defender: “We’re looking at a kid of 17 who plays like a seasoned top pro. After today we’ll have to call him 'Don' Elias Figueroa.” Unbeknownst to the broadcaster, the moniker would become known around the world.

Figueroa rejoined Wanderers in 1965, the same year he made his senior debut with the national team. He was soon a regular in the squad that were preparing to compete at the following year’s FIFA World Cup in England, and he would eventually travel to the tournament. Despite being just 19, it was no surprise to see him win a starting berth at the finals. And though Chile failed to survive the initial group phase, Figueroa again stood out, justifying his latest nickname La Muralla Roja (the Red Wall).

On his return, a host of clubs were clamouring for his signature, but it was Uruguayan giants Penarol who won the race. The centre-back quickly made a first-team place his own in a squad replete with big-name stars. Playing alongside the likes of Ladislao Mazurkewizs, Nestor Goncalves, Alberto Spencer and Pedro Rocha, he helped Los Aurinegros lift back-to-back league titles in 1967 and 1968 as well as the Intercontinental Champions Supercup in 1969. Don Elias was especially effective in the final of the latter, seeing off the threat of a Santos side featuring Pele.

It was a time of uncompromisingly tough games, the type Figueroa revelled in. Reminiscing about the era several years later, the player said: “In one match against Racing de Avellaneda I intercepted a cross with a diving header but took a kick in the head from [Alfio] Basile in the process. I remember coming to in the showers afterwards and asking someone how the game had finished, only to be told I’d been out there the whole 90 minutes.”
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Moore
So, what made Moore so special? For many, he was the complete defender. Strong in the air, clinical in the tackle and boasting impeccable distribution. He was no sprinter, but his ability to read the game meant that he was rarely caught out for pace. Indeed, the legendary Celtic manager Jock Stein joked: “There should be a law against him. He knows what's happening 20 minutes before everyone else!”
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Zico
It was not all plain sailing for the gifted youngster at O Mengão, however, with Zico having to wait until he was 16 to play in his first youth championship for the club in 1969. “Back then it was harder for young players, because in the youth system you were playing alongside lads who were up to three years older, which made a huge difference,” he recalled. “I was seen as a good prospect, but the fact that I was very skinny made people doubt me.”

Fortunately for the player and fans of beautiful football the world over, such were Zico’s gifts that the club decided to invest in an innovative programme designed to help O Galinho (The Little Rooster) bulk up. “It was the first time we’d heard of something like that,” said Zico, who was put through his body-building paces with doctors Jose de Paula Chaves and his son Jose de Paula Chaves junior, as well as fitness coach Jose Roberto Francalacci. “It was intended to speed things along, to give me the body shape that I might have had once I was a bit older.”

With his new-found physical attributes and the support of the club, Zico made his first-team debut in 1971, setting up a goal in a win over Vasco de Gama in the Campeonato Carioca. "I think that I would have made it as a footballer anyway, because it’s not all about physique at the end of the day. Being strong but not knowing how to play won’t get you anywhere. But it is true that it made me more sure of myself,” said Zico.

Inspired by their home-grown starlet’s skill, vision, inch-perfect set-pieces and clinical finishing, Flamengo won six state championships, three national championships as well as the 1981 editions of the Copa Libertadores and Intercontinental Cup.
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Yashin
There are relatively few players whose sheer brilliance have helped revolutionise the game of football, but former Russia No1 Lev Yashin is unquestionably one of them. Pre-Yashin, goalkeepers routinely spent the 90 minutes waiting patiently between the sticks to be called into action, with the former Soviet Union stalwart one of the first custodians to stamp his authority on the entire defensive third.

For Yashin, mere shot-stopping was not enough: he was constantly barking orders at his defenders, coming off his line to intercept crosses and charging out to meet onrushing attackers, thus commanding his penalty area with real ******. The Moscow native attributed his success, in part, to his hatred of conceding goals.

"What kind of a goalkeeper is the one who is not tormented by the goal he has allowed?" he said. "He must be tormented! And if he is calm, that means the end. No matter what he had in the past, he has no future.

Yashin was not just a great keeper, but also one of the biggest characters the sport has ever seen.
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Eusébio
Eusebio da Silva Ferreira began his playing career with his local club, Sporting Club Lourenco Marques, but by the age of 18, word of his prodigious talent had reached the big clubs in Portugal, provoking a fierce bidding war between Lisbon rivals Benfica and Sporting for his signature. So fierce, in fact, that as the wrangling went on, he was forced to flee Lisbon for a tiny Algarve village. When the dust settled, Eusebio was a Benfica player.

A powerful striker blessed with exceptional acceleration and ball-striking abilities, Eusebio was known for his slippery 'cat-like' dribbles, perfected in the street games of his childhood. In only his second outing for the Benfica senior side, in the final of a friendly tournament in Paris, he struck a hat-trick against a Santos side featuring another exalted youngster by the name of Pele.

They were the first in a long line of goals for the Eagles - in all he would score a phenomenal 320 in 313 Portuguese league matches. Such was Eusebio's impact that in 1962, at the age of 20, he proved the chief inspiration behind Benfica's European Cup triumph over Alfredo Di Stefano's imperious Real Madrid, scoring twice as the Portuguese champions prevailed 5-3.
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Brwned said:
Fortunately for the player and fans of beautiful football the world over, such were Zico’s gifts that the club decided to invest in an innovative programme designed to help O Galinho (The Little Rooster) bulk up. “It was the first time we’d heard of something like that,” said Zico, who was put through his body-building paces with doctors Jose de Paula Chaves and his son Jose de Paula Chaves junior, as well as fitness coach Jose Roberto Francalacci. “It was intended to speed things along, to give me the body shape that I might have had once I was a bit older.”
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That titbit perhaps belongs in the Performance Enhancing Drugs thread.
 
AldoRaine18 said:
Both, as I did mention in my post that I would take Figueroa if I have to take a man who I think would do well in all situations against all types of oppositions. I just view Passerella as the one having more limitations, out of those two.

Player to player I rate Figueroa higher, but I never really view any player without imagining his surroundings and scenarios. When I take randomly a few scenarios in my mind with different types of forwards with both those CBs having different sort of partners, who do I think would have a better series of performances? I think that would be Figueroa. He would not be exposed as easily as Passerella while in reality you would need a very skillful attack to expose Passerella in the first place. But in comparison, I find Figueroa trumping the Argentine in most situations.

Brings me back to the fact that I rate intelligence and tactical awareness quite high. There are a lot of great CBs in the history of the game who made their name by make last ditch tackles perfect for the clips or pictures, and even though they mastered it, relied on it day in day out and pulled it off, for me I would never rank them as high as CBs who can anticipate and clear the danger before it occurs. It is a cliche but if a defender is getting into the limelight a lot in a game, he is probably not having a good game even if he keeps the attack out for the game and gets everything right. To be a top defender you should be able to think much faster than your opponent and react before he attacks you. Or as Figueroa would say, "The area is my house, and I decide who enters it."
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different people like different skillsets though. I have always loved the physical side of the game, and love a good dominating CB or CF - the premierleague has seen a great example of both of these in the last few years.

I'm sure reading the game, anticipating etc is a great skill - but it doesn't mean as much to me as a rush back, and a crunching tackle to show who is boss - just my two cents on that.
 
MJJ is 1:30 from blowing his free pass. In fairness, he did email me a pick, but it's long gone.

Fergus'son: 1. Beckenbauer 2. Eusebio 3. Didi
DanNistelrooy: Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Ronaldinho 3. Nesta
KM: 1. Messi 2. Scirea 3. Bozsik
Thisistheone: 1. Maradona 2. B.Charlton 3. Eto'o
NM: 1. Pele 2. Neeskens 3. Passarella
Cutch: 1. Best 2. Van Basten 3. Robson
Brwned: 1. Di Stéfano 2. Keane 3. Falcão
MJJ: 1. Duncan Edwards 2. Garrincha
JakeC: 1. Ronaldo 2. Maldini
mightberight: 1. Ferenc Puskas 2. Stoichkov
EDogen: 1. Cruyff 2. Moore
Gio: 1. Platini 2. Xavi
Antohan: 1. Laudrup 2. Rijkaard
Stobzilla: 1. Zidane 2. Yashin (Russia)
Isotope: 1. Zico 2. L. Matthäus
paceme: 1. Figueroa 2. Baresi
 
Antohan - how many players are we picking? also, does the 1 nation rule stay throught the compeititon, even when we are picking up players from other teams?
 
Why did Falcao have so few Brazil caps for how good a player he was?
 
NM said:
Antohan - how many players are we picking? also, does the 1 nation rule stay throught the compeititon, even when we are picking up players from other teams?
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13 players to begin with.

The rule stays throughout, it's part of what makes the drafting complex, which adds to the fun. I'm not having a lot of fun right now though :( fecking 13th, horrible horrible place to be, miles from the top and sufficiently far away from the bottom that you can't quite guess which picks are safe to leave for your even pick.
 
Unlikely that four picks will be turned over by the morning but is there anyone who'll take a PM for my next pick?
 
Gio said:
Unlikely that four picks will be turned over by the morning but is there anyone who'll take a PM for my next pick?
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Since I would be next up I'd be more than happy not to have to wait around :D
 
Updating the last few picks.

zh7wkUD.jpg
 
Isotope said:
Laudrup was excellent as well. He's just lacking this 'aura and charm' as one of great payers. It shouldn't be a deciding factor, but an important one nonetheless.
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Hadn't seen this. Laudrup's main problem was he turned up when he felt like it, largely the big games and top competitions... except when called up and on holiday. Missing those Euros and not being consistently at his top level is what has cost him in terms of his "aura" as an all-time great. This being a knockout competition, I have no worries about him turning up though.

How many players would accomplish what he did in Spain? To this day is the only player to have won La Liga five seasons in a row with different teams.

  • Four consecutive titles with Barca, winning his last Clasico 5-0.
  • The next year Real get the league and win El Clasico 5-0.
  • In his last season at Barca they won, Real was 4th and the goal difference between them >30
  • The next year Real won, Barca where 4th and the goal difference was >30, but in the opposite direction
What had changed? Laudrup changing sides. Pretty much the entire first teams remained the same otherwise.
 
Or it could be because Romario didn't play that much in 94/95; and after 4 titles in a row and just won European Cup, Barca was a bit demotivated?

But nonetheless, Laudrup was great player for sure. Of course, missing him was a blow for any team.
 
The one player per country element is a really good addition to the game. Makes it a lot more interesting.

In terms of quality I think Edwards, Ronaldo, Laudrup and Figueroa don't really belong in the first round draft but they make a lot of sense with the nation rule.

Eusebio's extremely hard done by though to be picked after Ronaldo.
 
AldoRaine18 said:
Bit tough to say with the different formations used back then. Bit of a shot in the dark but maybe you can equate him with Xavi.
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Brwned said:
I'd say Didi's more Valerón than Xavi.
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Thanks. So, he's more of a playmaker (ball distributor) that can dribble well? Well, United can use one for sure.

Fortitude said:
Zidane and Valderrama mixed together with a hint of Xavi and Iniesta, if that helps! :lol:
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:D So, like Cleverley then.
 
Shit.

Emmh, I'll go with frank rijkaard
 
Shit.

Emmh, I'll go with frank rijkaard
 
MJJ said:
Welcome up aldoraine. Did you guys finish the cricket draft we had a long time ago in the newbies?
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Hey mate. I think you are talking about the Test Cricket Draft. Well, it never went past the first group stage. Everyone lost interest. :lol:

Did an ODI one later on, which was completed.
 
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